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Women invoicing less than men
Thread poster: Heinrich Pesch
Niina Lahokoski
Niina Lahokoski  Identity Verified
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Difference in work-life priorities, or in client attitudes? Oct 17, 2014

Based on the small sample posted by Samuel, there doesn't seem to be too much difference in the rates between men and women.
Assuming family responsibilities and pricing have nothing to do with it, and making heavy generalizations here, maybe there just are more "workaholics" among men? I personally prefer to work less hours if I can afford it, rather than trying to get more and more work and aim for higher and higher income while sacrificing my free time. Maybe it's just that I'm not ver
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Based on the small sample posted by Samuel, there doesn't seem to be too much difference in the rates between men and women.
Assuming family responsibilities and pricing have nothing to do with it, and making heavy generalizations here, maybe there just are more "workaholics" among men? I personally prefer to work less hours if I can afford it, rather than trying to get more and more work and aim for higher and higher income while sacrificing my free time. Maybe it's just that I'm not very competitive.

Still, 64% seems awful little, not to mention 24%. That's a huge gap. Maybe it has to do with possible antiquated attitudes among the people choosing the freelancers - they more often choose a man, so men "win" more work?

[Edited at 2014-10-17 14:35 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
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@Claudia Oct 17, 2014

Claudia Cherici wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
You're welcome to try sharing it with your husband. Let us know the results.

1. Are you implying that it shouldn't be shared?
2. And why do you assume I have a husband, don't you feel it's kind of rich...? (let alone sexist)?


1. I'm not marriage counsellor, but my impression is that it is best if child care responsibilities are shared by both parties in a manner that they are best capable of doing and are most happy with doing. My comment was simply in reply to your comment, which was a retort on a statement that women may be earning less because they spend more time (or effort) on child care.

I find that the statement is possible correct (but then, I'm not a Finnish woman, so I can't really tell). The reason I find it is likely true is because men are generally less good at child care than women, and men generally find it less fulfilling to do than women do. Therefore, in a marriage, when the man and the woman are faced with decisions related to child care, the average woman is more likely to choose a lower income coupled, with the fulfilment that child care brings with it, and the average man is more likely to choose a higher income, with with the fulfilment of having enough money to pay for child care. There is nothing sexist about this decision.

2. You are a woman and you make a statement on child care. Your statement is either not based on experience (i.e. it reflects your belief but not your life) or it is based on your own experience. There is therefore nothing sexist (or rich) about my assumption. If my assumption is incorrect, it would be the simplest thing in the world to say "unfortunately, Samuel, I'm not married" (or: "fortunately, Samuel, I'm not married" if that is more accurate for you).

What I will not do is to qualify my posts endlessly. For example, I say "man and woman" but I don't assume that two women or two men can't be married (though that would be irrelevant to the discussion, because we're talking about men versus women in this thread). Or, I say "marriage", but I don't assume that there aren't other types of cohabitation. We all know what we're talking about here.

And don't call me "Shirley". (-:


[Edited at 2014-10-17 11:41 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-10-17 12:29 GMT]


 
Heinrich Pesch
Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
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Disagree Oct 17, 2014

Samuel Murray wrote:

I find that the statement is possible correct (but then, I'm not a Finnish woman, so I can't really tell). The reason I find it is likely true is because men are generally less good at child care than women, and men generally find it less fulfilling to do than women do. Therefore, in a marriage, when the man and the woman are faced with decisions related to child care, the average woman is more likely to choose a lower income coupled, with the fulfilment that child care brings with it, and the average man is more likely to choose a higher income, with with the fulfilment of having enough money to pay for child care. There is nothing sexist about this decision.



I'm sure men are as good as women when caring for a child, except that man cannot give birth or breastfeed. After the new law fathers and women are expected to share equally the time for parental leave (formerly maternity leave) if they want to get the full benefit. Now men use only 6 weeks but in Sweden equality is already a step further.

But child-care is not the explanation, if you read my original posting. On average here women earn 80 % of the wages for men. This is well documented and has not changed much since the 1980's. The truth is that both sexes are paid equally for the same work, but because men up till now spent less time with child-care (but have to serve in the army, women only if the want), work in better paid industries (that is changing quickly, as heavy industry is going down) and rise higher in the ranks of business and commerce the average is 80 % for the whole society.
So what explains the 64 % or even 24 % from the invoicing stats? I'm afraid we should only know if we could analyse the invoicing system of proz.com.


 
Samuel Murray
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On whether men enjoy child care as much as women Oct 17, 2014

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Men are generally less good at child care than women, and men generally find it less fulfilling to do than women do.

I'm sure men are as good as women when caring for a child...


Of course, it is not a popular thing to say, for in modern society "equality" is generally equated with "sameness", and we should always be mindful that statements on men and women are potential sources for stereotype that could lead to unfair discrimination and oppression.

But I do believe that my statement in this case is based on literature and science. Not all men are alike, and not all women are alike, but men have certain traits generally that are generally different from the traits that women generally have. And when we encounter an imbalance in society along gender lines, we should consider this as a potential cause or contributing factor.

After the new law fathers and women are expected to share equally the time for parental leave (formerly maternity leave)...


That's baby care, not child care.

And quality of care (or level of skill of care, of degree of fulfilment due to care) should not be measured in duration of care. Those are completely different things.

But child-care is not the explanation, if you read my original posting.


I have read it, and the subsequent thoughts, and I do think that child care may be a factor if the imbalance that the article refers to is monthly income (or annual income) as opposed to hourly income. A person that works 10 hours a day for $20 an hour will earn more (per month/year) than a person that works 4 hours a day for $30 an hour.

We can only determine men and women's hourly rates by examining ProZians' profile pages, but I suspect many of these kinds of reports are based on monthly or annual income instead.

On average here [in Finland] women earn 80 % of the wages for men.


Per hour or per month? If "per hour", how can we be certain that the reporters don't simply take the monthly income and divide it by the number of normal working hours in the month?

The truth is that both sexes are paid equally for the same work, but [men spend] less time with child-care ... [and] work in better paid industries ... [and] rise higher in the ranks of business.


Yes. However, the original poster's sentiments reflect the "hourly" income argument. He (you!) encourages women to "raise their rates", not to "work longer" or "work in better paid industries".


[Edited at 2014-10-17 12:30 GMT]


 
Claudia Cherici
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Samuel! Oct 17, 2014

Samuel! sorry for calling you Simon....! my bad...

aside from that, and unlike what you say, your statements:

"The reason I find it is likely true is because men are generally less good at child care than women, and men generally find it less fulfilling to do than women do. Therefore, in a marriage, when the man and the woman are faced with decisions related to child care, the average woman is more likely to choose a lower income coupled, with the fulfilment that child
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Samuel! sorry for calling you Simon....! my bad...

aside from that, and unlike what you say, your statements:

"The reason I find it is likely true is because men are generally less good at child care than women, and men generally find it less fulfilling to do than women do. Therefore, in a marriage, when the man and the woman are faced with decisions related to child care, the average woman is more likely to choose a lower income coupled, with the fulfilment that child care brings with it, and the average man is more likely to choose a higher income, with with the fulfilment of having enough money to pay for child care. There is nothing sexist about this decision".

are indeed, and unfortunately, a popular view, which doesn't make it any less sexist, as well as hopelessly reactionary.
I am truly sorry to have to have to (still ) read clichés like these...

(And yes, it is sexist, and rich, to assume that, just because I am a woman with views about child rearing, I am married, and to a man)

End of the discussion, as far as I'm concerned!
Happy translating!
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Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
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German to English
biological vs. cultural differences Oct 17, 2014

I'm not up on the scientific literature, but as a father who more or less equally splits working hours, income, and childcare with my wife, I really don't see biological differences as anything but a minor contributing factor relative to cultural and personal differences regarding this issue. Otherwise it seems difficult to explain the radical differences between different cultures and historical periods on this point. I think I enjoy my work more (although I don't know if I would describe it as... See more
I'm not up on the scientific literature, but as a father who more or less equally splits working hours, income, and childcare with my wife, I really don't see biological differences as anything but a minor contributing factor relative to cultural and personal differences regarding this issue. Otherwise it seems difficult to explain the radical differences between different cultures and historical periods on this point. I think I enjoy my work more (although I don't know if I would describe it as fulfilling), but I don't think either of us experiences taking care of our children as significantly more or less fulfilling and enjoyable than the other.

However, your other point is what really interests me: Are journalists really too stupid to keep the terms wages/salaries and earnings/income separate? (Or too lazy and sloppy to base their conclusions on their findings?) Whichever side we stand on regarding the issue in question, bad reporting is a major disservice. The important questions for me are whether women earn less for the same work or charge less for the same services or systematically get stuck in the lower echelons of corporate structures or have more trouble getting hired to positions than men with comparable qualifications.

Is the principle that we have to hold all other variables as constant as possible if we want to find out how a single variable affects an outcome that hard to grasp? Obviously your little rate summary was not meant seriously, but it really is that simple and I can't imagine there aren't relevant sets of data available.

[Edited at 2014-10-17 14:19 GMT]
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Heinrich Pesch
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Income Oct 17, 2014

The 80 % means gross income.
Equality in industry, social service etc. is established by trade union agreements and all institutions are bound by these. If the boss gives someone a rise this will be reflected automatically in the next few years by rising the salaries of others in the same job.
But freelancers have no trade unions and may charge what they want. I'm very much in doubt if anyone from Samuel's sample really would ever get paid those rates. Maybe 10 years ago but not anym
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The 80 % means gross income.
Equality in industry, social service etc. is established by trade union agreements and all institutions are bound by these. If the boss gives someone a rise this will be reflected automatically in the next few years by rising the salaries of others in the same job.
But freelancers have no trade unions and may charge what they want. I'm very much in doubt if anyone from Samuel's sample really would ever get paid those rates. Maybe 10 years ago but not anymore.
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Samuel Murray
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@Claudia Oct 17, 2014

Claudia Cherici wrote:
Unlike what you say, your statements ... are indeed, and unfortunately, a popular view, which doesn't make it any less sexist, as well as hopelessly reactionary.


Wikipedia defines "reactionary" as a person who holds political viewpoints that favor a return to a previous state (the status quo ante) in a society. If that is what you mean by "reactionary", then my statement are the opposite of reactionary.

The "previous state" (which manifested itself at different times in different countries, but very broadly speaking in 1970-1990) is that men and women are equal in status and identical in psychology. The "previous previous state" (say, pre-1960) was that men and women are different in psychology but also unequal in status (i.e. that men and women should "know" their place and not deviate from it, and generally that women are lesser). The view expounded by my statements is that men and women are equal in status but different in psychology. I believe that to be the modern view.

The "previous state" was mostly ideological -- society realised that men and women should be equal in status (which is good), and helped established this new idea by pronouncing that men and women must also be identical in psychology (which was not tested scientifically but simply assumed, because it sounded non-sexist). However, studies have shown that men and woman are, in fact, generally different. I understand that this fact may be frightening to some people who fear that admission of this fact may lead back to assumptions that men and woman should therefore not be equal in status either.

But I agree with you on one thing: the fact that something is a popular view does not make it any less sexist.

By the way, Wikipedia defines sexism as prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender; sexist attitudes may stem from traditional stereotypes of gender roles, and may include the belief that a person of one sex is intrinsically superior to a person of the other. If that is what you mean by "sexist", then I'm glad, because it means that my statements aren't sexist either. My statements do not imply that one sex is superior to the other (just different).

I am truly sorry to have to have to (still) read clichés like these...


I'm sorry if my view is no longer the "modern view". Perhaps you can tell me what the modern view is (or... do you perhaps hold that the previous view (equal status + identical psychology) is still the "modern view"?).

And yes, it is sexist, and rich, to assume that, just because I am a woman with views about child rearing, I am married, and to a man.


If I understand the English language correctly, my reply you're welcome to try sharing it with your husband does not imply that you are already married. It applies also when you're not married yet, but will be later. If someone were to say to me "you must always cherish your grandchildren", my reply will not be "how dare you assume that I have grandchildren!!". (-:

I made no assumptions about whether you are married. I did not make any assumptions based on the fact that you're a woman. The fact that you are a woman was irrelevant to my answer, except that it made me use the word "husband" -- for using "wife" would not have made any sense, since this thread is about differences between men and women (not between women and women), and because the statement you replied to related to married life (or: cohabiting life, if you dislike the word "marriage").



[Edited at 2014-10-17 20:36 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
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My little rate summary, and Finnish trade unions Oct 17, 2014

Michael Wetzel wrote:
Obviously your little rate summary was not meant seriously, but it really is that simple and I can't imagine there aren't relevant sets of data available.


I wouldn't say that it wasn't meant seriously, but instead that it was a foretaste. It would be great if ProZ.com's staff could run such a search for us. ProZ.com does not require members to declare their gender, but it does have a gender field, and therefore the gender is known to ProZ.com in some cases.

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Equality in industry, social service etc. is established by trade union agreements and all institutions are bound by these.


Interesting (I assume you're describing the situation in Finland). Are all employees required to join the trade unions, then?


[Edited at 2014-10-17 20:49 GMT]


 
Heinrich Pesch
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Contracts cover all employees Oct 18, 2014

Samuel Murray wrote:

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Equality in industry, social service etc. is established by trade union agreements and all institutions are bound by these.


Interesting (I assume you're describing the situation in Finland). Are all employees required to join the trade unions, then?


[Edited at 2014-10-17 20:49 GMT]


No, you do not have to be member of any trade union, but no corporation or institution is allowed to pay less than the general agreement has set for the function. The same applies to the societies in most EU-countries, at least Germany and the Northern States.


 
Egmont Schröder
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What kind of freelancers are mentioned in these statisitcs? Oct 18, 2014

It would also be interesting to know from what kind of profession these freelancers come.

There are a lot of discussions and statistics about the unfair payment of women, but I think it depends mainly on the different career choices of man and women.

When I studied Linguistics and Cultural Studies at university, women were always the majority in my attended courses. Sometime I was the only male. I think everybody in the field of linguistics made the same experience.
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It would also be interesting to know from what kind of profession these freelancers come.

There are a lot of discussions and statistics about the unfair payment of women, but I think it depends mainly on the different career choices of man and women.

When I studied Linguistics and Cultural Studies at university, women were always the majority in my attended courses. Sometime I was the only male. I think everybody in the field of linguistics made the same experience.
I also had courses about Computer linguistics which were attended by students of Linguistics and Computer Sciences equally, and it was always easy to tell who studied what subject: Most of the computer scientists were male.

And that didn't stop in my subject. You didn't need a statistical evaluation to notice that subjects like humanities, social sciences, education,... were mainly visited by women whereas a lot of MINT (mathematics, engineering, natural sciences, technic) students and students of economics were male.

When it comes to working life, work in the MINT or economical fields always gets the higher income, no matter if you are freelancer or not. A freelancer can be a translator, an engineer or a midwife.

I think it is hard to change the income gap of different professions, but I don't really understand why people nowadays (40 years after a sucessful feministic movement in the western world) are still not very flexible with the choice of their career.
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Gabriele Demuth
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Pay gap between men and women Oct 18, 2014

I think it is quite well documented that the pay gap between men and women doing the same job is not closing but widening, in the North West of England it currently stands at 17%.

It even goes on in the UK parliament.


 
Tom in London
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Not here Oct 18, 2014

I'm going to stay out of this.

 
564354352 (X)
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Not a question of what we are paid, but what we charge Oct 20, 2014

First, just to correct a small issue: In Denmark (presumably one of the Northern states you refer to, Heinrich), there are no minimum wages imposed on all industries. There are very strong trade unions which negotiate minimum wages for their members, and some industries are bound by these, but that is all. It is still very much a free market.

Second, industry wages are nothing to do with independent translators' fees. WE decide what we charge, not our clients. Granted, there will be
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First, just to correct a small issue: In Denmark (presumably one of the Northern states you refer to, Heinrich), there are no minimum wages imposed on all industries. There are very strong trade unions which negotiate minimum wages for their members, and some industries are bound by these, but that is all. It is still very much a free market.

Second, industry wages are nothing to do with independent translators' fees. WE decide what we charge, not our clients. Granted, there will be clients who are not willing to pay our fees, but then it is our individual decision whether we want to work for less, it is not imposed on us by clients.

Third, I know of Danish female translators who charge much more than I do, and I know of Danish male translators who charge less. I don't know how our annual invoicing compares, though. And I imagine that any statistics made in our field would be flawed, simply because we are individuals who work in very different ways.

There are loads of variations in the way we work, in which fields of knowledge we work, in which language combinations, with which types of clients, whether we work mainly with agencies or with direct clients, in which countries etc.

Statistics stating that women invoice less than men are about as good as the following examples:

http://news.distractify.com/megan-mccormick/these-hilarious-graphs-show-unexpected-correlations-between-seemingly-unrelated-statistics/

[Edited at 2014-10-20 06:29 GMT]
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