| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] | The "Crime" of Using MT Thread poster: Michelangela
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Michelangela
United States
Local time: 01:56
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Miguel Carmona wrote: Michelangela wrote:
I found it amusing how "dogmatic people", the best of the best translators, lacking technological sophistication, were the first to judge others as inexperienced, incompetent, etc. So, to you, not using MT indicates lack of technological sophistication? Could please explain how so?
Please understand that I am NOT saying the failure to use MT is evidence of lack of technological sophistication. Clearly, use of MT is a separate issue from technological sophistication. The point I sought to make is that many technologically sophisticated translators do use MT to enhance their productivity, often by 30% or more. There are other technologically sophisticated translators who choose not to use MT. Use or not of MT is a personal choice and does not indicate any degree of technological sophistication. It seems, though, that some people who choose not to use MT are quite judgmental of those who do, accusing such users of being inexperienced, incompetent, or generally lacking professionalism.
To directly address your question, logically it's the other way around, i.e. some very respected, "technologically sophisticated" translators using MT benefit from doing so. They PROVED how their use of technology (CAT+MT) - namely feeding professionally human translated texts as a source for MT with AI (Artificial Intelligence) capabilities (read about the UN translations) helps them increase productivity.
Part of the problem was the limited understanding of the MT scope. For many, MT meant Google Translate and such like, and therefore they expressed many vehement opinions.
| | | | | Lack of clearly defined scope | Jun 20, 2014 |
Michelangela wrote:
Part of the problem was the limited understanding of the MT scope. For many, MT meant Google Translate and such like, and therefore they expressed many vehement opinions.
I don't agree that this is about limited understanding of the MT scope. MT is not just what you think it is; everyone has their own idea. Too bad that, as the topic starter, you did not offer any definitions of the very concept you sought to discuss.
| | | | | Where are the examples of great MT? | Jun 20, 2014 |
Michelangela wrote:
....
Part of the problem was the limited understanding of the MT scope. For many, MT meant Google Translate and such like, and therefore they expressed many vehement opinions.
I am curious about these "other" more sophisticated MT's.
And Wikipedia has you believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_translation
Despite these disadvantages, machine translation still maintains some advantages. First, machine translation is much faster than human translation. Second, machine translation uses a much larger quantity of vocabulary than human translation. Although post-editing is still needed by translators, they need only adjust some words or grammar according to the ready-made target texts from machine translation. This will greatly improve the speed and efficiency of translators. As a result, undoubtedly, human translation should be integrated with machine translation to correct deficiencies. The author also hopes that with further research and development, machine translation can be capable of translating articles of different types in the near future.
I take exception especially to the part I put in bold face.
1) " ... only adjust ... to the "ready-made target text from machine translation" - ready-made? Nope.
2) "This will greatly improve the speed and efficiency of translators." No again. You will have to compare every single sentence of the "MT-ed" text with every single sentence of the OT, determine to what degree the MT translation uses the right words and displays the same meaning, then edit basically every single sentence -replacing words and changing the sentence structure. How efficient will a translator be/become through constant bombardment of wrong words, screwed-up sentence structure and lack of idiomatic use of the target language - I call this counterproductive influence.
3) "As a result, undoubtedly, human translation should be integrated with machine translation to correct deficiencies." Nope. if anything, MT could be integrated in the overall work process of the translator, not the translator into the "MT's work process" so to speak. The statement above (3)) makes it sound like all that is needed are cosmetic changes. Far from the truth.
But I gladly look at some convincing examples if anyone has some.
[Edited at 2014-06-20 18:52 GMT]
| | | | Michelangela
United States
Local time: 01:56
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
Too bad that, as the topic starter, you did not offer any definitions of the very concept you sought to discuss.
I am sorry if the term MT was unclear in my original post of this topic and created some confusion. As the discussion has shown, this is quite a complex topic.
It was my intention to promote discussion, not to produce dictionary definitions.
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| Drawing a line | Jun 20, 2014 |
Michelangela wrote: Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
Too bad that, as the topic starter, you did not offer any definitions of the very concept you sought to discuss. I am sorry if the term MT was unclear in my original post of this topic and created some confusion. As the discussion has shown, this is quite a complex topic. It was my intention to promote discussion, not to produce dictionary definitions.
Who said anything about a dictionary?
At any rate, to contribute to defining the terms and the scope, I propose that MT per se and MT-based solutions should be delineated as separate concepts and referred to as such. By MT-based solutions I mean the kinds of solutions that Vladimir described.
Hence, all of my critique in this thread referred to MT per se and not MT-based solutions.
| | | | | MT's like GT are based on a big open-source TM | Sep 17, 2014 |
That Google beefed up with their own algorithms. How many man hours of professional translation would be included in GT? According to this old Guardian article:
The corpus includes all the paper put out since 1957 by the EU in two dozen languages, everything the UN and its agencies have ever done in writing in six official languages, and huge amounts of other material, from the records of international tribunals to company reports and all the articles and books in bilingual form tha... See more That Google beefed up with their own algorithms. How many man hours of professional translation would be included in GT? According to this old Guardian article:
The corpus includes all the paper put out since 1957 by the EU in two dozen languages, everything the UN and its agencies have ever done in writing in six official languages, and huge amounts of other material, from the records of international tribunals to company reports and all the articles and books in bilingual form that have been put up on the web by individuals, libraries, booksellers, authors and academic departments.
Is it a crime to copy paste just one sentence into GT for quick reference if you have an NDA in place? Yes it is, technically. ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Moran 
Ireland
Local time: 09:56
German to English
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| This may be a bit confusing but I'm going to give it a go... | Nov 3, 2014 |
I think most people agree that using MT is not a crime. For example, most translators who use MemSource have it switched on (though few wish to pay for it).
I've been in the unusual circumstance of devoting quite a bit of time to this topic. Specifically, I have developed some software that answers the question of how useful it was on large or repeating projects. It deletes the MT from a percentage of segments and facilitate a report to compare the average speed with and without MT.... See more I think most people agree that using MT is not a crime. For example, most translators who use MemSource have it switched on (though few wish to pay for it).
I've been in the unusual circumstance of devoting quite a bit of time to this topic. Specifically, I have developed some software that answers the question of how useful it was on large or repeating projects. It deletes the MT from a percentage of segments and facilitate a report to compare the average speed with and without MT. Interested parties may wish to Google for iOmegaT.
The main outcome of my research is that the utility of MT varies hugely from person to person. For example the same project might be completed 60% faster by one translator using MT while another translator was 5% slower. All projects were reviewed so quality was comparable. To complicate matters further the utility of MT is dependant on the source content, MT system and many other factors.
The good news (I think) is that over the next couple of years we will probably be able to measure the utility of MT very easily in terms of X% increase / decrease in words per hour from the CAT tool. The time reporting function in the latest version of MemoQ is a first step in this direction.
I hope this will add some much needed hard data to the debate.
My strong suspicion (based on work I do with a translator who uses dictation software) is that the ability to measure translation speed (as the translator's discretion) will show that dictation software (Dragon) enhances translation speed more frequently and by a greater degree than MT. Also, the impact of dictation on translation style may be less of an issue.
We live in interesting times. ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 04:56
Member (2008)
French to English
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
And Wikipedia has you believe:
Bernhard, Wikipedia is written and updated by experts like you, why not log on as an editor and correct it? There's no need to leave false information on Wikipedia.
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| MT is accepting "low cost" concept | Nov 3, 2014 |
If you need MT to translate anything, this clearly indicates you seriously lack knowledge in the subject matter field you are dealing with. Therefore, you should not have taken on that project.
If you lack subject matter expertise in all fields, you should be doing something else rather than translating.
MT is "low cost" translation. Surprisingly, some clients accept it, or some agencies think so, until they run out of clients and put themselves to sleep:
�... See more If you need MT to translate anything, this clearly indicates you seriously lack knowledge in the subject matter field you are dealing with. Therefore, you should not have taken on that project.
If you lack subject matter expertise in all fields, you should be doing something else rather than translating.
MT is "low cost" translation. Surprisingly, some clients accept it, or some agencies think so, until they run out of clients and put themselves to sleep:
“We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep.” - WS, The Tempest
Or isn't it?
By the way, I just ran it through MT, for the sake of it, and this is the result:
"Somos la materia tal que los sueños se hacen sobre , y nuestra pequeña vida se redondea con un sueño"
Which, in Spanish, is complete nonsense. Is it really helping anyone? ▲ Collapse
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John Fossey wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
And Wikipedia has you believe:
Bernhard, Wikipedia is written and updated by experts like you, why not log on as an editor and correct it? There's no need to leave false information on Wikipedia.
Good point, John. I might just do that.
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