| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Criteria of a professional translator Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Edwin den Boer 
Netherlands
Local time: 09:57
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
| Why I only translate into Dutch | Jan 20, 2015 |
Edwin den Boer wrote:
who displayed a plaque
I mean a nameplate or door plate. I ask apologies, the english is not my Mother's tongue.
| | | | | Perhaps this is an oversimplification... | Jan 20, 2015 |
When I started my carpentry apprenticeship I was told that I would become a professional carpenter when I was - honestly - proud of the quality my work, and when I could appreciate the work of others.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 15:57
Chinese to English
| It's polysemous! | Jan 20, 2015 |
OK, now I'm starting to get freaked out. We're supposed to be language professionals, and yet not a one of us has remembered a pretty basic fact about language: most words mean more than one thing.
So professional is a complex idea that includes:
-Doing it for the money
-High level of competence
-Maintaining a professional appearance
-Conducting oneself in a business-like manner
-Having some kind of credential
-Etc.
None of these aspe... See more OK, now I'm starting to get freaked out. We're supposed to be language professionals, and yet not a one of us has remembered a pretty basic fact about language: most words mean more than one thing.
So professional is a complex idea that includes:
-Doing it for the money
-High level of competence
-Maintaining a professional appearance
-Conducting oneself in a business-like manner
-Having some kind of credential
-Etc.
None of these aspects is decisive on its own, and any attempt to strictly define professionals will fail in the absence of a legal professional organisation (like the bar or the medical council).
A couple of points are worth making. Being a professional does not mean being above the fray. Professionals compete - we just do it better because we have more tools to compete with. The man who taught me go (Asian strategy game like chess) told me this story: he asked a Japanese professional what the difference was between an amateur go player and a professional player. The answer: in a game between an amateur and a professional, the professional always wins.
We compete with our manner, our credentials, our quality, and, yes, on price. The tragedy is that our AGENTS - the people we pay with our translations, the agencies - are not representing us properly. They often attempt to compete on price only. I like agencies because working for them is flexible and easy. But they've been squeezing my rates and they don't know how to represent me. So I guess it's time for more direct clients. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 03:57
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | In support of professional standards | Jan 20, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Initially, I went to the expensive dentists, because they came highly recommended, but when my nett income was reduced (bought a house, got kids, etc), I started going to the cheap dentists, because they also came highly recommended, and my conclusion was this: for basic tooth work, they both delivered a high quality, adequate service. And for filling a cavity, the one charged five times as much as the other (I'm not making this up).[/i]
I think you have a point but I don't see the situation as exactly that with regard to our profession.
A dentist is a dentist and no matter how little he/she charges, for whatever reason, he won't work for minimum wage. I mean what is his skill worth?! Lots more. And he/she's got standards.
Similarly, I think first about what it is I offer - and I won't do it for a rate I find insulting and inadequate.
Do we have to be flexible with our rates? Yes, to a certain degree. But working for dirt-cheap into other people's pockets - no.
Samuel Murray wrote:
High end of the market, low end of the market. Now you might ask why does the cheap dentist not invest in better offices, better equipment, more staff, stricter payment terms, etc, if he is truly just as good as the expensive one. It's not as if he's unaware of the other dentist's success. Maybe he's a good dentist but a bad business person. Maybe he just prefers to have low overheads. Maybe he tried the expensive route, and realised that suddenly he had less freedom. Maybe he's just perfectly happy with his situation. Maybe he's actually a really bad dentist overall, but has a gift for filling cavities.
Okay, if a translator works for rock bottom prices and does a great job, he/she is neither a good businessman/woman nor a real professional - I'm sorry but with the minds we have, we should be able to tell when we're exploited. Again, flexibility with rates is different from total ignorance of what you're worth and an unhealthy desire to work for whatever little money someone throws your way.
I am sure you have standards with regard to payments. You're not working for 5 Cents per word.
I put lots of money and time into my formal education and language experience in general - and that has to pay off.
Samuel Murray wrote: As to your original question: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
What do you regard as the low-end of the market - the market that pays rock-bottom prices and justifies it by not needing it done at a certain quality level...? Kind of, yes. The low end of the market is the end that pays low prices. Some of them pay low prices because they are situated in low-income countries. Some of them pay low prices because they are bottom feeders (i.e. they are several levels removed from the original client). Some of them simply can't afford high priced translations. Some of them are satisfied with lower quality. Some of them don't care about any "added value" that some translators offer.
I am not catering to their demands or circumstances. I charge what is adequate for where I live and the value I provide. That's the same everywhere. I understand there are countries where, in general, rates demanded and/or rates quoted are lower, but not always. Just look at the Proz.com rates page (which shows lower prices anyway since the rate average has been gathered from translators AND outsourcers) - not even there you'll find it suggested that people anywhere should make 5 Cents a word. And it doesn't hold true that countries that are perceived as low-paying countries must charge or accept low fees. Smaller countries with fewer and fewer specialized translators might charge higher rates because of it. The mentality that a translator has to accept what others demand is not acceptable to me. As we said before somewhere, sometimes clients need to be told what a professional translation costs.
Now, I'm not telling you what you can charge. I'm just saying that for a professional, there have to be standards with pricing, and giving up these standards is counterproductive. My goal is to have good clients. The goal must be attainable for people like you and me. I'm not doing this for peanuts. No way.
If I were a dentist, I would try to be competitive, but with other dentists. And then I would charge my clients the same. I wouldn't charge the millionaire a fortune and the poor person a little. That wouldn't work.
Now it's hard enough in this country to afford a dentist (cause teeth are not regarded as a part of your body and are not included in any health insurance), but dental visits will cost you more than haircuts, no matter which dentist you go to.
And yes, the bells and whistles thing might work for comparing dentists, but I don't agree it works for us. The only bells and whistles I can think of is experience - if you've established yourself over 15 or 20 years, you can probably charge a little more. But a little more up from an already good rate - because you've been providing excellent work all along.
What if you can't get those good jobs, or not always get the jobs because you don't have a good client base, or you have a mixed client base, or you're starting out, or you have a family to feed etc.
I understand all that and it can indeed require flexible pricing.
But what I warn against is the shameless undercutting going on among translators and the unbelievably boldfaced impertinence of those outsourcers who ask for your experience, degrees, CAT tools, TMs, speed (rush, rush) and then will demand you give them your best rate! I hold that most want the quality, they want the speed, they are going to blame you (when the end-client complains), not themselves or the other middlemen involved, and they only pay dirt-cheap.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Or are you saying you provide something to the high-end for let's say 500.00 for which you charge the low-end only 100? I wouldn't think so. Well, it depends on *what* you deliver. Both cheap and expensive dentists deliver a filled cavity, meeting the minimum requirements of the national dental review council. But the expensive dentist "delivers" more... he delivers a nice environment, a smooth running office, fobia-proof clean equipment, safe parking with a smile, and (most importantly) an appointment card with his logo on it that you can stick on your fridge door so that all your friends will be able to see that you can afford to go to *this* fancy dentist. Translators servicing the high end of the market simply do more than just translate. And some clients are willing to pay for that. And some just aren't.
I think that's where the comparison goes too far - you make it look like we could or should sometimes provide a value that's worth far less than what could be provided (the added value).
I provide accurate translations (I try anyway), it doesn't matter what I charge. That's why I have to charge certain minimums, otherwise I feel exploited. You get my bells and whistles (if you want to call it accuracy and style) every time.
Half-a.. work for peanuts is not what I do. Yes, certain clients are willing to pay more for experience or a proven track record. But clients need to understand what it is we do and pay adequately. Otherwise, you're not running a professional business. You're simply working into someone else's pocket.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I believe that the fact that translators provide something for a clearly inadequate rate is because they feel pressured by what you call "low-end" clients. I think we may be talking about two different things here: you speak of "inadequate rate", and I speak of "low rate", but you seem to equate low rate with inadequate rate. Leaving low and high ends of the market aside for the moment, what is inadequate depends on the translator. For a translator who lives in a more expensive part of town, with a spouse that works only half day, with two children and a dog, gym membership, mortgage, high-end medical and dental cover, and who chooses to work only 5 hours a day so that he can spend time with his lovely wife and children, a given rate may be "inadequate", whereas that same rate may be perfectly adequate for another translator who lives in a cheaper part of town, alone or with a full-time spouse, in a house that's fully paid off or rent-free, with no kids, etc, etc.
Again, dentists are not going to work for minimum wages, neither should translators. But it seems many translators just work for whatever they get, not what they deserve. Even though I still believe it has a big impact on all of us and contributes to exploitation and lower rates, I will focus on my own service and value and try to convince people to pay for it, adequately. I for one am not happy with low rates. I feel that my service must cost at least a certain amount. If that's not possible, I would find something else to do or work an additional job that also pays adequately.
We all run into difficulties in our lives and we sometimes give in or have to give in. But we should stick to our guns. Most of the times, it will work.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
How can you do this continuously? Now you're going to say you mix it up and get a good job from the high-end and a lot of jobs from the low-end? : Yes, partially. I understand that it may be difficult to accept in theory, but in practice it works.
But you're not working for rock bottom prices as they are often advertised here (80% of all translators charge more ...)
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:I believe that kind of thinking might lead to and has already led to a lot of people being simply exploited. That, unfortunately, is true.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I believe with the right attitude and skill-set, every translator should be able to get paid adequately, which allows him to work decent hours and have a decent living. I think it takes more than attitude and skill-set to break into the high end of the market (although it may depend on what you mean by "skill-set").
I didn't say high-end of the market, I said adequately and decent hours, no matter who the client is. And skill-set includes your skills a a translator and businessman/woman.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Don't forget that as a professional translator, you are an extraordinarily gifted and/or experienced language expert... You may or may not be gifted (you may, in fact, be merely adequate, or even mediocre), but that is actually less relevant than it may seem. What's more relevant is whether the market is willing to pay high prices for people with such gifts and expertise.
You aren't mediocre, Samuel, and neither are lots of professional translators. And it must be about what "good" and "educated" clients are willing to pay, not cheap fly-by-night outsourcers. It comes down to standards and best practices. If we don't adhere to those, we'll be exploited. I really believe that. Is it easy out there? No. Am I forced to work into other people's pockets who can't care less about how much or little (well maybe that! ) a professional translator deserves? No.
Samuel Murray wrote:
We're not selling our giftedness and clients don't pay us because they are in awe of our expertise. We sell products and services, and whether we can charge high rates for it depend on what the market is willing to pay for it.
No, not unjustified high rates or high rates in general. "Adequate" rates. And the clients don't buy our services because they are in awe, but they do it because we convinced them that they will get a good product for a fair price.
But we do sell our giftedness and expertise. And that ought to be worth more than running a dishwasher.
Samuel Murray wrote:
If you want higher rates, find higher paying clients. You can try to convince your existing clients to pay you more, but generally that's a non-starter solution, because clients pay what they think is a fair rate. So find clients who think that the higher rate is a fair rate.
That's what I do every day, trying to find or attract the good client that pays a decent rate, commensurable with my service value, not an unjustified high rate, and also raise my rates. I do have some success.
Samuel Murray wrote:
I suspect many translators in the low end of the market simply slog on with the clients they have, unmotivated to seek greener fields. But that does not mean all translators in the low end of the market are sad losers... some might be perfectly satisfied with what they have.
I sincerely doubt that they are satisfied with what they have, especially if you tell them that they're making other people rich, and that's all they do.
Samuel Murray wrote: As you say: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I think many might be stuck because they feel there is nothing better out there or it's too hard to get to a reasonable income level and that they can't convince their clients to pay them more.
Yes, and I am telling them if they have the talent and the knowledge to do good work, they need to think way more boldly. They need to do something about it. Slaving away as a translator is not healthy.
Thanks for the dialogue.
[Edited at 2015-01-20 07:17 GMT]
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 13:27
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Let me explain... | Jan 20, 2015 |
Max Deryagin wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
I think this has been obliquely said by others, but to me it seems, a professional translator is one who earns all or most of his income from translation. Working on several freelance platforms, I know of at least a handful of absolutely terrible translators who earn all or most of their income from translation. I would never call them professionals.
I never said professional translators are not (all) terrible translators. Some may be. But in the long run, they will be weeded out by a natural selection process. They will eventually begin to get less and less work, and also, perhaps, less and less pay for their work, and in the end, their translation work would cease to yield a living income for them, at which stage they would have to supplement their income doing something else, and then they would cease to be professional translators.
When a translator makes all his money from translation, he (which also includes she) will take great care to ensure that he remains competitive and competent, thus bringing all the other qualities of professionalism into his work such as accuracy, elegance, timeliness, subject knowledge, specialization and the rest.
So although it is not explicitly implied, saying that a professional translator is one who earns all his money by translation, assumes that he is accurate, elegant, timely and knowledgeable in what he translates.
I may modify my definition slightly to say:
A professional translator is one who aspires to earn/earns/has earned all his income through translation.
The first part includes those who are new entrants who may not in the beginning earn all their income from translation, but intend to, and therefore have powerful incentive to acquire all the attributes of professionalism.
The last category (those who have already earned their income) represents senior translators who can pick and choose their work, or can refuse work, or take up other non-translation activities (some income generating) because they have already made their money, and can therefore afford to relax a bit on the rigors of professionalism and enjoy life doing things they like.
To reach this stage one would have to be spartanly professional in the beginning of their translation career.
[Edited at 2015-01-20 04:10 GMT]
| | | | | Deregulation & agencies | Jan 20, 2015 |
I'd like to consider two separate points here.
Phil Hand wrote:
None of these aspects is decisive on its own, and any attempt to strictly define professionals will fail in the absence of a legal professional organisation (like the bar or the medical council).
Apart from translations for legal/official purposes in SOME countries where there are laws about them, my pet analogy on professional regulate-ability is between translators and photographers.
The medical board has a clear reason to be. In an emergency, human lives may be at stake so, for its self-preservation, mankind has decided that health professionals must have passed by the training society deems adequate to do it.
Meanwhile, as we see every day, any self-claimed bilingual person can "make" translations. Of course, trained professionals will do it more reliably.
Likewise, since the 1950s anyone can shoot pretty good photographs without too much training. At that time some point'n'shoot cameras came up and, if things were steady and it was sunny outside, good pictures would result. Not so much need any more to tackle f-stops and shutter speeds, focus, focal length, framing, steadiness, lighting, shadows, etc. (Let's forget about film & prints processing.)
Yet when things were more complex, photos involved unique events that would never be repeated again, the reliability of a professional photographer was welcome.
Nowadays, anyone wanting to save on a professional photographer can call a teenager with a state-of-the-art digital camera with a hi-capacity memory card, and ask him/her to take, say, 10 times more shots than would be necessary. Something usable should come out from that.
So there is no way to regulate that, and no point in regulating it.
Phil Hand wrote:
We compete with our manner, our credentials, our quality, and, yes, on price. The tragedy is that our AGENTS - the people we pay with our translations, the agencies - are not representing us properly. They often attempt to compete on price only. I like agencies because working for them is flexible and easy. But they've been squeezing my rates and they don't know how to represent me. So I guess it's time for more direct clients.
There are agents and agents. Some just make a profit from reselling our work, nothing else. Others add value to our work and, quite fairly, charge for that.
I've tried to show the difference - from the translation client's point of view - on this page.
Perhaps the next question would involve differentiating professional translation agencies from fly-by-nite (greedy) translation middlemen.
| | | | Edwin den Boer
Netherlands
Local time: 09:57
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
| Agencies are not agents | Jan 20, 2015 |
That's funny - I wrote a dentist story without having read Samuel's (sorry). South-African markets are probably more unequal than European markets, but I agree that some professional translators are paid a word rate five times higher than other equally professional translators.
BTW, dentists have fixed rates in the Netherlands. A free market experiment was abandoned after a year because it led to higher prices. In the short run, it wasn't profitable to advertise low rates in order ... See more That's funny - I wrote a dentist story without having read Samuel's (sorry). South-African markets are probably more unequal than European markets, but I agree that some professional translators are paid a word rate five times higher than other equally professional translators.
BTW, dentists have fixed rates in the Netherlands. A free market experiment was abandoned after a year because it led to higher prices. In the short run, it wasn't profitable to advertise low rates in order to attract more clients.
Samuel Murray wrote:
I suspect many translators in the low end of the market simply slog on with the clients they have, unmotivated to seek greener fields. But that does not mean all translators in the low end of the market are sad losers... some might be perfectly satisfied with what they have.
I've met translators who are afraid to negotiate, but I have never met one who is happy with low rates. All book translators I know are struggling to survive, although they love their work. Ironically, they may be less exploited than better-paid translators in more commercial sectors.
Phil Hand wrote:
We compete with our manner, our credentials, our quality, and, yes, on price. The tragedy is that our AGENTS - the people we pay with our translations, the agencies - are not representing us properly. They often attempt to compete on price only. I like agencies because working for them is flexible and easy. But they've been squeezing my rates and they don't know how to represent me. So I guess it's time for more direct clients.
Yes, I made an unprofessional diagram of the difference between agents and translation agencies (presentation PDF, see page 3). If you want an intermediary to work for you, maybe you should pay them directly instead of letting them keep a big margin of what the end client pays. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Max Deryagin
Russian Federation
Local time: 12:57
Member (2013)
English to Russian
| Ah, if only this were true! | Jan 20, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
I never said professional translators are not (all) terrible translators. Some may be. But in the long run, they will be weeded out by a natural selection process. They will eventually begin to get less and less work, and also, perhaps, less and less pay for their work, and in the end, their translation work would cease to yield a living income for them, at which stage they would have to supplement their income doing something else, and then they would cease to be professional translators.
We seem to have had vastly different experience in life in this regard. From what I have seen throughout my career, terrible translators can stay in the business for years and years. I know of one particular person who's been producing garbage-grade translations 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for well over 5 years. Not one client has batted an eye.
Why? Because that person is unaware of own incompetence due to the Dunning–Kruger effect, and the clients don't know either, as they are not fluent in the target language and have never questioned the person's translation ability.
This leads me to the next point.
Our profession is different from many others in that there is no dependable way for a person unfamiliar with the translation business to assess a translator's competence and the quality of his or her work. It can be difficult even if you are fairly fluent in both the source and target languages, but the thing is, most clients are not.
Take design, for example: designers can display their designs for clients to see. If you like them, you hire the guy, if not, you just move on to the next one. Or take SEO: you can show the results of your optimization, and if they're good, that's usually enough to land a job. But you cannot assess someone's translation ability without being a decent translator yourself, and this is why fraud and incompetence are so widespread in the field of translation: you can simply lie your way through — either intentionally, or unintentionally, if you are oblivious to your low skill level.
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
When a translator makes all his money from translation, he (which also includes she) will take great care to ensure that he remains competitive and competent, thus bringing all the other qualities of professionalism into his work such as accuracy, elegance, timeliness, subject knowledge, specialization and the rest.
I know of many examples to the contrary — numerous translators don't take such care because they think they are the cream of the crop while not being good at all (again, due to the Dunning–Kruger effect).
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
I may modify my definition slightly to say:
A professional translator is one who aspires to earn/earns/has earned all his income through translation.
This definition works perfectly in the world of sports — if you earn all your income being a sportsman, you are invariably a professional, simply because only top-tier players can earn a living off their career. But I think it cannot work for translators because, all in all, for a man of no principle, earning all income off translation without being any good at it is not that difficult.
[Edited at 2015-01-20 18:49 GMT]
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 13:27
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | That is very depressing... | Jan 21, 2015 |
Max Deryagin wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
I may modify my definition slightly to say:
A professional translator is one who aspires to earn/earns/has earned all his income through translation.
This definition works perfectly in the world of sports — if you earn all your income being a sportsman, you are invariably a professional, simply because only top-tier players can earn a living off their career. But I think it cannot work for translators because, all in all, for a man of no principle, earning all income off translation without being any good at it is not that difficult.
I see your point, and if it true (which I fear it probably is), it does present a very depressing scene for our profession. Read together with Jose's comparison with the photographer profession, it all boils down to the issue of how to make our clients see value in a good, professionally done translation.
As you see, the ball then shifts from the translator's court to his client's court. It is the client who is at fault if he is unable or unwilling to value a good translation.
But doesn't that also indicate that we as translators are rather helpless in ameliorating our situation, as there is precious little we can do to force clients to see value in good translations. Some clients do see value in good translation, of course but many don't, too. Many would say that the latter category dominates in our profession.
Again, everything comes back to having a professional body to represent us and do the client education and sensitizing part. I think this point too has been touched upon by others in this thread.
| | | | sandrutedal (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:57
Russian to Lithuanian
| Criteria of aprofessional translator | Jan 21, 2015 |
Yes you are right Max D.
Some translators without degree, knew culture and life . So it is not always important to have one.
| | | | | Translation does not depend on education alone | Jan 21, 2015 |
Maija Cirule wrote:
A professional translator should have at least a bachelor's degree in translation, otherwise he/she is simply a wannabe translator not a professional one.
I have seen some pretty poor translations done by the category of "professionals" you describe, not to mention resourcefulness and research skills close to zero. Translation does not depend on education alone - heaven forbid...
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 03:57
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Charging an adequate rate? | Jan 23, 2015 |
Fiona Peterson wrote: Maija Cirule wrote:
A professional translator should have at least a bachelor's degree in translation, otherwise he/she is simply a wannabe translator not a professional one. I have seen some pretty poor translations done by the category of "professionals" you describe, not to mention resourcefulness and research skills close to zero. Translation does not depend on education alone - heaven forbid...
A professional translator should know what he/she's doing with regard to translating, and it doesn't matter how they acquired the knowledge. I would think any professional translator would agree to that.
But it seems there are big differences between translators when it comes to what they charge.
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 03:57
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Many good points here! | Jan 23, 2015 |
Thank you for many valuable comments!
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 03:57
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | What's behind a criterion | Jan 24, 2015 |
Phil Hand wrote:
OK, now I'm starting to get freaked out. We're supposed to be language professionals, and yet not a one of us has remembered a pretty basic fact about language: most words mean more than one thing.
So professional is a complex idea that includes:
-Doing it for the money
-High level of competence
-Maintaining a professional appearance
-Conducting oneself in a business-like manner
-Having some kind of credential
-Etc.
None of these aspects is decisive on its own, and any attempt to strictly define professionals will fail in the absence of a legal professional organisation (like the bar or the medical council).nts.
I would argue though if you give your knowledge away for peanuts, it will diminish your
"professionalism" in a decisive way, no matter how many of the other criteria you fulfill.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 15:57
Chinese to English
| Yes, but I think your logic is backwards | Jan 25, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I would argue though if you give your knowledge away for peanuts, it will diminish your
"professionalism" in a decisive way, no matter how many of the other criteria you fulfill.
I know what you mean, but I think you've kinda got the logic backwards. In fact, there are almost no high quality translators who charge peanuts, but that's not because the charging peanuts diminishes them, it's because they were actually never really good in the first place.
For clients, the direction of causality isn't vital. They just need to know that in general, if you see someone charging peanuts, chances are...
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