Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3] >
Watching your clients advertise for (cheaper) translators
Thread poster: Phil Hand
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:30
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
Stick to your price Jan 27, 2015

I used to have, years ago, a client who was good for about 40% of my yearly income (at that time I asked € 0.07 p/w). Out of the blue I received an email from this agency with the message that if I would agree to work for € 0.03, they could assure me 'a continuous line of work'. For as far agencies are going, I already considered working for them as 'continuous', but the well suddenly dried up. No problem. there were more agencies out there. The funny thing though was that they started to se... See more
I used to have, years ago, a client who was good for about 40% of my yearly income (at that time I asked € 0.07 p/w). Out of the blue I received an email from this agency with the message that if I would agree to work for € 0.03, they could assure me 'a continuous line of work'. For as far agencies are going, I already considered working for them as 'continuous', but the well suddenly dried up. No problem. there were more agencies out there. The funny thing though was that they started to send me proof jobs (no translations anymore): 'the end client wasn't satisfied, and if I could have a look at it, please'. What can you expect for € 0.03 p/w?

Another client sends mails starting with 'Dear everybody, etc...', but when things go wrong, or when they have a new customer they want to keep, I receive a 'Dear Robert mail', and if I could do the job (after which it is 'Dear everybody' again).

Of course there are also professional agencies, but there is a heap of outsources out there that is looking for the best (read LOWEST) price (hey, everybody who learned a foreign language during his/her vacation can translate!)

I am surprised that they never learn, and probably never will (read all the comments). Therefore my advise to all my colleagues is: 'Stick to your prices, you'll win some, you'll loose some, but at the end you'll still be able to look at yourself in the mirror'.

And yes, it is a rat race, just try to avoid it by finding the right clients.



[Edited at 2015-01-27 23:20 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-01-27 23:21 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-01-27 23:22 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-01-27 23:25 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-01-27 23:27 GMT]
Collapse


 
JaneD
JaneD  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 19:30
Member (2009)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Not necessarily looking for cheaper translators Jan 29, 2015

I've had this happen to me a few times too, and when I spot an agency I work for I simply send a direct email the person on the advert saying "I already work for you and I could do this". This usually does the trick. It really is often just the case that you've fallen off their radar, or they think that you don't deal with this particular subject area.

 
Richard Foulkes (X)
Richard Foulkes (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:30
German to English
+ ...
Really...? Jan 29, 2015

Gabriele Demuth wrote:

Translation rates should slowly increase with inflation and living costs.



Well...

- Germany has just entered deflation.
- Discounters are devouring big supermarkets' market share forcing them into price wars.
- The oil price has just halved.
- Comparison sites allow us to find the cheapest available price of almost anything in seconds, forcing everyone to compete on price. I've just used one to buy a new specialist dictionary. (We can benefit from crowdsourcing as well as being 'victims'.)
- Mortgage rates have been at historic lows for 6 years and ECB QE has probably just pushed any interest rise back further.

So who's lowering their rates first?


 
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:30
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
@ Richard / Wrong question Jan 29, 2015

Nice list of decreasing prices, but somehow my cost of living is still rising, like my rent, the VAT (at least in Holland), my taxes on everything, my beer (sorry, but I love a glass of beer after a long day of working as a kind of reward), my healthcare insurance, my dentist costs (which are not included in the healthcare insurance), my car insurance, etc, etc...

So: "who is lowering his rates first"? Not me and not JaneD, in short: wrong question. Figure out the answer for yoursel
... See more
Nice list of decreasing prices, but somehow my cost of living is still rising, like my rent, the VAT (at least in Holland), my taxes on everything, my beer (sorry, but I love a glass of beer after a long day of working as a kind of reward), my healthcare insurance, my dentist costs (which are not included in the healthcare insurance), my car insurance, etc, etc...

So: "who is lowering his rates first"? Not me and not JaneD, in short: wrong question. Figure out the answer for yourself.

[Edited at 2015-01-29 22:33 GMT]
Collapse


 
Richard Foulkes (X)
Richard Foulkes (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:30
German to English
+ ...
Sorry to hear that Robert. Jan 31, 2015

Dutch inflation is 0.70%, trending lower (down from over 3% in 18 months) and probably soon to become deflation so perhaps you're being slightly selective yourself? Personally, I was being slightly facetious to make a point that the economy is pretty flat in many countries after barely scraping out of a momentous recession so it may be unrealistic to expect higher rates to fall in your lap. On the other hand, it's quite realistic to go out and get them by improving your skills and marketing your... See more
Dutch inflation is 0.70%, trending lower (down from over 3% in 18 months) and probably soon to become deflation so perhaps you're being slightly selective yourself? Personally, I was being slightly facetious to make a point that the economy is pretty flat in many countries after barely scraping out of a momentous recession so it may be unrealistic to expect higher rates to fall in your lap. On the other hand, it's quite realistic to go out and get them by improving your skills and marketing yourself more effectively.

BTW, this isn't directed at Phil, and apologies for diverting the thread. There's nothing wrong with the occasional rant!
Collapse


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 02:30
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Not at all... Jan 31, 2015

Richard Foulkes wrote:

...apologies for diverting the thread. There's nothing wrong with the occasional rant!

Threads like these are made to be diverted. A rant is only a passing fancy, and as it happens, the next job has come in and I'm feeling better already. I leave this thread up as a reminder to myself and others: this game is all about riding out the downs, because the ups will come along in due course.


 
LEXpert
LEXpert  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:30
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
+ ...
Deflation only part of the picture Feb 1, 2015

Robert Rietvelt wrote:

Nice list of decreasing prices, but somehow my cost of living is still rising, like my rent, the VAT (at least in Holland), my taxes on everything, my beer (sorry, but I love a glass of beer after a long day of working as a kind of reward), my healthcare insurance, my dentist costs (which are not included in the healthcare insurance), my car insurance, etc, etc...


Indeed... the problem with looking only at the CPI (or whatever the inflation indicator in your country is) is that is it only covers a limited basket of goods such as foodstuffs, utilities, etc. The wholesale prices of big-ticket items sourced globally are largely independent of trends in the country of the target market.

Furthermore, our individual cost of living steadily increases throughout our lives, outpacing any deflationary tendencies in the wider economy. Most people get married, have children, need bigger houses/mortgages, bigger cars, figure out how to finance our kids' educations as they get close to college age, etc. The cost never actually goes down, at least not until the ever-elusive pipe dream of retirement and/or the kids are grown and self-reliant.



[Edited at 2015-02-01 20:53 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 19:30
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Whether deflation should affects us Feb 1, 2015

Richard Foulkes wrote:
Dutch inflation is 0.70%, trending lower (down from over 3% in 18 months) and probably soon to become deflation...


True, but de/inflation is not the same as cost of living. Over the past 6 years, the compound inflation rate for the Netherlands was 15%, but from my experience our weekly household expenses almost doubled in the past 6 years, no matter how spartan we're trying to live. During the same period, my per word translation stayed roughly the same.


 
Richard Foulkes (X)
Richard Foulkes (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:30
German to English
+ ...
Glad to hear it Phil! Feb 2, 2015

As for inflation, Samuel / Rudolf, of course you're right that CPI covers a limited basket of goods and services.

However, inflation/deflation are a reflection of what is happening in the real economy and I think the notion that translation rates across the board 'should' remain constant or go up regardless of what is happening, has happened or is about to happen in the outside world is at best naïve.

Those personal costs that you mention, Rudolf, are also shared by pe
... See more
As for inflation, Samuel / Rudolf, of course you're right that CPI covers a limited basket of goods and services.

However, inflation/deflation are a reflection of what is happening in the real economy and I think the notion that translation rates across the board 'should' remain constant or go up regardless of what is happening, has happened or is about to happen in the outside world is at best naïve.

Those personal costs that you mention, Rudolf, are also shared by people who run translation agencies and end/direct client businesses.

However, unlike many freelancers, those people and their businesses are also subject to a plethora of additional costs and risks such as office rent, service charge, property taxes, utilities, staff salaries, pensions, tax and admin costs, staff absence/holidays, maternity leave, commercial risks, legislative risk (e.g. compulsory pensions brought in a few years ago here), legal fees, insurance, lack of bank lending, end client payment default, supplier default...I'll leave it there because I have work to do!

There's been virtually no real growth in western economies since the credit crunch. Let's hope Europe doesn't spiral into deflation or we might all have something to really complain about!

[Edited at 2015-02-02 08:48 GMT]
Collapse


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:30
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Distorted Feb 2, 2015

I don't know how inflation is calculated in other countries but here in the UK the calculation is grossly distorted because it doesn't take account of a number of significant costs, including (inter alia) the very high cost of using public transport in the UK and the cost of renting or buying a home.

The actual rate of inflation, when these housing and other costs are taken into account, is significantly higher than the official rate.

As in the case of other contribut
... See more
I don't know how inflation is calculated in other countries but here in the UK the calculation is grossly distorted because it doesn't take account of a number of significant costs, including (inter alia) the very high cost of using public transport in the UK and the cost of renting or buying a home.

The actual rate of inflation, when these housing and other costs are taken into account, is significantly higher than the official rate.

As in the case of other contributors to this discussion, in my case too my real costs are continuing to increase, not decrease.

As is widely acknowledged, the vast majority of people in the western economies are becoming poorer, not richer, as these economies continue to undergo a restructuring that benefits the very rich, in ways that continue to be the object of intense debate.

[Edited at 2015-02-02 09:39 GMT]
Collapse


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 19:30
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
London Feb 2, 2015

Tom in London wrote:
Here in the UK the calculation is grossly distorted because it doesn't take account of a number of significant costs, including (inter alia) the very high cost of using public transport in the UK...


Yes.
https://fullfact.org/factchecks/is_the_rising_cost_of_public_transport_leaving_us_out_of_pocket-28841


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 00:00
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Same here too Feb 4, 2015

I live in Mumbai, one of the costliest cities in India. I have seen cost of living only going up, never coming down. Only recently, BEST (the bus service here) raised its rates by one rupee per stage. Now this is hard to understand as India is an oil importing country and oil prices have crashed to half of what they were a few years ago, so bus rates should actually be going down. Clearly, the economy (or government policy) works in mysterious ways that we laymen can't decode.

Anoth
... See more
I live in Mumbai, one of the costliest cities in India. I have seen cost of living only going up, never coming down. Only recently, BEST (the bus service here) raised its rates by one rupee per stage. Now this is hard to understand as India is an oil importing country and oil prices have crashed to half of what they were a few years ago, so bus rates should actually be going down. Clearly, the economy (or government policy) works in mysterious ways that we laymen can't decode.

Another mystery is how people who work for 2 cents a word and less manage to keep the wolf away from their doors under these circumstances. I feel the pinch even with charging five or six times that rate.

[Edited at 2015-02-04 02:02 GMT]
Collapse


 
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 19:30
English to Polish
+ ...
... Feb 4, 2015

Phil Hand wrote:

This is just a rant. A few times recently I've had the experience of watching agencies for whom I have done a lot of work in the past advertise on Proz for translators for projects which I could take on. I haven't even raised rates for some of them - they're just determined to find cheaper translators.

It's the kind of thing that makes me want to get out of this rat race, but I'm not sure any other fields are less rat racey, so I'm sticking with it for a while...


Yup, seeing that too.


 
Krys Williams
Krys Williams  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:30
Member (2003)
Polish to English
+ ...
There is a particular satisfaction... Feb 4, 2015

... in charging a misguided client more, on the basis of an hourly rate, to mend an abysmal translation he obtained from a bottom feeder, than it would have cost him to pay me to translate from scratch on my per word rate.

This has happened many, many times. I laugh all the way the bank


 
Preston Decker
Preston Decker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:30
Chinese to English
Thoughts Feb 5, 2015

Phil Hand wrote:

Those are all encouraging words and sound advice. I have tried bidding on such jobs a couple of times. I don't think I ever got one, and on at least one occasion I was explicitly told, "We can't afford your rate for this job." Ho hum.

I think Dan's right that the long term trajectory of the industry is going my way. It feels as though we've hit a little wrinkle - ten years ago, there was a vast undersupply of translators in my pair, and now it seems there's a generation of eager young Americans with college degrees in Chinese. They're bright-eyed, bright, and they don't have kids yet, and the result is that where there only used to be two modes in my pair - 0.02 and rubbish, expensive and good - there is now a third rail: cheapish and decent. Unsurprisingly, the agencies are exploiting it! In another five years things will settle down a bit more, I'm sure.

NB. Not sure how accurate any of this is, of course - it's one translator's wild imaginings based on the very limited data I see. But that's kind of what it feels like.


As one of these "young Americans" I'm inclined to say you're probably right. In fact, if Proz.com is any indication of the market as a whole, the CN-EN native English speaking group of translators as a whole is quite young--you're just about the oldest CN>native EN translator I’m aware of on here, and you're by no means a greybeard.

As others have said, my generation's expenses, and thus our rates, can only go up as we get older. My rates have quadrupled in four years--there comes a time when 'kicking it in China' and grabbing a beer and 10 kebabs at night isn't everything you want in life materially. Heck, before I started translating, I was perfectly happy living on 600 USD a month in Xinjiang--that wouldn't even cover my monthly debts now. So pretty soon most of those with comparatively low rates in my generation will either be out of translating, or our rates are going to climb up towards where yours are.

Of course, there will be a new generation of young Americans,Brits, HKers, etc. popping onto the scene to replace my generation(all statistics I've seen say that Chinese language studies are increasing outside China). But I’d argue that while this is new to our language pair, it's really only making CN-EN like any of the other major ‘into English’ pairs(except Arabic and perhaps Japanese)--a small number of 'elite' translators, with the rest of the pyramid rounded out by younger, less experienced ones.

So to me, the biggest problem in the CN-EN pair (and I think this is where a lot of the comparative lack of high-end demand comes from) is that we are essentially missing a large chunk of what should be our primary client base. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but my impression is that there is a far higher percentage of German or French companies willing to pay high into English rates than Chinese companies. For CN>EN, a few of the industry leaders in China have realized that they need professionally done translations and are willing to pay high rates. Then there’s a smaller segment of mid-level companies that want native English on their websites, and are willing to pay the bare minimum needed to get a "decent" translator, and then a vast majority of companies that either can't afford/don't want anything other than Chinglish on their websites or don't know enough to know that this is exactly what they're getting.

If you decreased demand for Spanish-English translations from Spanish speaking companies, or if German companies stopped being willing to pay high rates, I bet we'd hear a lot more about a squeeze from translators in these pairs.

Will this change in the future? It's really hard to say. Whereas one year ago it looked like the USD-RMB exchange rate was heading into the 5s, and many might have thought a high 4-1 exchange rate was possible in 5-6 years, the exchange rate has basically been stuck for the past year. That's not going to help prod Chinese companies towards paying high rates.

Even more worrisome is the attitude of the government towards the outside world, perhaps best shown by its internet firewall. Three years ago when I was working for a company in Beijing, I spent an average of about a half hour a day just waiting for company gmail to load. Probably cost me 15 emails a day to clients. Why didn't we use Chinese email providers? A host of reasons, including the fact that they don't offer easy domain hosting (b/c the gov't restricts this as I understand), and inferior performance. Would Chinese email providers be forced to change & improve if the firewall came down and gmail was allowed back in the country as their main competitor? Absolutely. Would taking the firewall down send a huge message to businesses around the country that they’re going to have to sink or swim based upon their own merits? Yes. Would I be able to find actual information on Baidu, and not a list of advertisements, if Baidu had to compete directly against Google? I’m betting yes.

Similarly, would Chinese companies have a greater need for high quality translations if international earnings could be remitted back into the country more easily, allowing more mid-range Chinese companies to do business outside of China? Absolutely. But the gov’t isn’t interested in doing this.

As a side note, I think the gov’t is half correct in keeping the country relatively closed, as I’m not convinced that free trade is always the way to go for developing countries.

But regardless of whether or not closing itself off to the outside world is the right move for China as a nation, it’s certainly not making for a great CN-EN business environment.

So I think a lot of our fortunes as CN-EN translators over the next 10 years depend on the Chinese economy and whether the government opens the country up more. If Chinese companies are able to hire high-rate translators for less RMB, then of course things will look better for us. Likewise, if Chinese companies are able to sell their products internationally, and bring those revenues back into the country more easily, they’re going to need good translators.

This has been a bit of a ramble/rant of my own. I do think you’re right about us younger translators bringing rates down, but I think another big part of this is a comparative lack of high-end demand from China .


[Edited at 2015-02-05 11:37 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-02-05 11:38 GMT]


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Watching your clients advertise for (cheaper) translators







TM-Town
Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business

Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.

More info »
CafeTran Espresso
You've never met a CAT tool this clever!

Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer. Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools. Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free

Buy now! »