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Spotlight on: the BEST RATE
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 03:06
Italian to English
The way I see it May 4, 2015

1) ProZ has clearly stated its position on this issue, and seems to have no intention of changing it;
2) As a service provider, it is up to the individual translator to decide his or her policy on rates;
3) The ProZ job posting system works for some, not for others.

The industry is changing, and I'm of the opinion that it is better to work on getting clients to come to me, through an effective website (working on it!!!) and social media; if I go to them it is to direct c
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1) ProZ has clearly stated its position on this issue, and seems to have no intention of changing it;
2) As a service provider, it is up to the individual translator to decide his or her policy on rates;
3) The ProZ job posting system works for some, not for others.

The industry is changing, and I'm of the opinion that it is better to work on getting clients to come to me, through an effective website (working on it!!!) and social media; if I go to them it is to direct clients, rather than to agencies, as the number of agencies it actually pays to work for is shrinking day by day, like the Indonesian rainforest or the Arctic ice cap.
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Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:06
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Regarding "best ignored" May 4, 2015

dianaft wrote:

However, most of the "best rate" job posts ask for a bargain without a return gesture, and that's where things can get a little uncomfortable. In that case, the phrase is "best ignored".


If you mean by ignored that one shouldn't even think of doing that job, yes, definitely. If you mean that these job posts can simply be ignored, I disagree. Because someone is carrying out those jobs. That's not right. Not for that translator and not for the industry.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:06
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Bad apples are still spoiling the pie May 4, 2015

Fiona Peterson wrote:

1) ProZ has clearly stated its position on this issue, and seems to have no intention of changing it;
2) As a service provider, it is up to the individual translator to decide his or her policy on rates;
3) The ProZ job posting system works for some, not for others.


Regarding 1): well, let's try to change their minds

Regarding 2): Then ProZ.com should do away with the "best rate" demands or change its name.

3) It seems to work quite well for many outsourcers who post ridiculous rates.

Fiona Peterson wrote:
The industry is changing, and I'm of the opinion that it is better to work on getting clients to come to me, through an effective website (working on it!!!) and social media; if I go to them it is to direct clients, rather than to agencies, as the number of agencies it actually pays to work for is shrinking day by day, like the Indonesian rainforest or the Arctic ice cap.


Well, I'm not convinced the industry is changing to the better yet, Fiona. I like your approach. But the "bad apples" are still in the basket. Let's point them out.

Here's another example: slightly altered (not the suggested rate though) to protect the poster

Hello,

This job post is for those who could translate comfortably from German to English or vice versa. They must have a high level of fluency in the target language.
Furthermore, the translator must be able to translate or work on files in image format with ease.
We also prefer someone who can work quickly but with acceptable quality.
If interested, please email letter of interest to:

[email removed]

Our suggested rate is .04 USD per source word.

Thank you.

Regards,
XXXXXX XXXXXX


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:06
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Don't mean to offend May 4, 2015

Angela Rimmer wrote:

And by the way, Bernard, I'm really offended by your statement that "fair" means fair to me. I meant fair to the translator. The last thing I would ever EVER want to do is exploit a colleague -- which is also why I make a point of paying invoices either on the day or within 3 days of receiving them. And you and I have never worked together so it is really poor taste to make assumptions about what I am willing to pay my own colleagues for their work.


I don't mean to offend. I was just telling you what I think when someone demands the best rate. And as far as your fair rates are concerned, I did state that I hoped that's what they would be because you're also a translator. But I don't associate demanding the best rate with fair. So why put yourself in a group with outsourcers whose motives are (yours excluded), quite frankly, awful?


 
Angela Malik
Angela Malik  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:06
German to English
+ ...
Who's demanding? May 4, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I don't mean to offend. I was just telling you what I think when someone demands the best rate. And as far as your fair rates are concerned, I did state that I hoped that's what they would be because you're also a translator. But I don't associate demanding the best rate with fair. So why put yourself in a group with outsourcers whose motives are (yours excluded), quite frankly, awful?


First of all, who is demanding? You are the service provider. If your best rate is still out of range of the client's budget, then both parties are free to go their separate ways. You don't have to work for crappy rates and the client does not have to use your services. No one is being forced to do anything.

Second, I don't know what you mean by "[putting myself] in a group with outsourcers whose motives are...awful". I never said I was posting jobs asking for best rates. Actually I never post jobs on Proz forums. I approach translators directly, and I tend to approach translators who I know or who have been recommended to me. My point was only that the phrase "best rate" is not evil.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:06
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I called it WORST rate May 4, 2015

Angela Rimmer wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I don't mean to offend. I was just telling you what I think when someone demands the best rate. And as far as your fair rates are concerned, I did state that I hoped that's what they would be because you're also a translator. But I don't associate demanding the best rate with fair. So why put yourself in a group with outsourcers whose motives are (yours excluded), quite frankly, awful?


First of all, who is demanding? You are the service provider. If your best rate is still out of range of the client's budget, then both parties are free to go their separate ways. You don't have to work for crappy rates and the client does not have to use your services. No one is being forced to do anything.


I's not what I do or what you do. It's about what lots of other people are doing every day, posting and accepting unreasonable terms. Just take a look right now and you will see what I mean.
But when you demand/ask for best rates yourself, please don't be offended, but you know what I think of that. And I am certainly not alone.

Angela Rimmer wrote:
Second, I don't know what you mean by "[putting myself] in a group with outsourcers whose motives are...awful". I never said I was posting jobs asking for best rates. Actually I never post jobs on Proz forums. I approach translators directly, and I tend to approach translators who I know or who have been recommended to me. My point was only that the phrase "best rate" is not evil.


I think you posted earlier that you asked for best rates (at least sometimes). I didn't call it evil but I did try to convey what I think about it. To me, it's lots of people doing business at terms that are unprofessional (please count yourself as an exception). Does it affect you now? Well, maybe not. Does it affect our profession? I believe it does. That's why I speak out.


[Edited at 2015-05-04 18:03 GMT]


 
Christel Zipfel
Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:06
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
I'm not a native English speaker May 4, 2015

and therefore, by the way, according to a recent thread of yours', Bernhard, I would not even be supposed to write here in the English forum

This said, to me asking for the best rate does not sound "awful". Don't we all do it all the time? Not explicitely, of course, but we are looking to get a good bargain always, for example, that's quite normal. At least I do. Outsourcers, too, want to spend as little as possible,
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and therefore, by the way, according to a recent thread of yours', Bernhard, I would not even be supposed to write here in the English forum

This said, to me asking for the best rate does not sound "awful". Don't we all do it all the time? Not explicitely, of course, but we are looking to get a good bargain always, for example, that's quite normal. At least I do. Outsourcers, too, want to spend as little as possible, don't they? Whether they ask or not for the "best rate/price" or whatever for me is quite irrelevant. I guess they expect anyways to pay the best possible price for whatever are their expectations. So if they have in mind to spend 4 peanuts, they will choose a translator that offers 4 or less, even if there is no mention of the "best rate/price" in their job post.

On the other side, I wouldn't dream to do a translation at 4 only because the outsourcer asked for the best price.

I may not know certain subtleties of the English language, so that's my fault that I don't really get your point.

What is much worse in my opinion are actually outsourcers who "offer" ridiculous or even offending rates. People (newbies, but not only, unfortunately) who are not taught otherwhise here or elsewhere may get indeed the impression that those are the standard rates in our profession, and it happens all the time. THIS really is extremely deleterious for all of us, because the price level for our whole industry is supposed to go down. And not whether or not job posters ask for the best rate.
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Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:06
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for your comments May 4, 2015

Christel Zipfel wrote:

and therefore, by the way, according to a recent thread of yours', Bernhard, I would not even be supposed to write here in the English forum



My apologies, Christel. I believe that thread was a reaction to many people either claiming to translate from or into English, or worse, claiming to be native speakers of English, when their command of English isn't good enough.
But it has really no particular significance for the English forums as long as English doesn't deteriorate completely, which is probably not going to happen. And there are indeed many reasons why non-native speakers of English should contribute/use the English forums.

Anyway, this is what I said to you then, and I can only reiterate it:

http://www.proz.com/forum/site_forums/274501-what_bothers_you_about_the_forums-page4.html

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
And as far as your comment above (I put it in bold) is concerned Christel, I don't mean to preclude anyone from posting in any forum. I simply expressed what is bothering me, especially when lots of people claim to be fluent in English these days or claim to translate from English. ...


[Edited at 2015-05-04 22:01 GMT]


 
Christel Zipfel
Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:06
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
-.- May 5, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Christel Zipfel wrote:

and therefore, by the way, according to a recent thread of yours', Bernhard, I would not even be supposed to write here in the English forum



My apologies, Christel. I believe that thread was a reaction to many people either claiming to translate from or into English, or worse, claiming to be native speakers of English, when their command of English isn't good enough.
But it has really no particular significance for the English forums as long as English doesn't deteriorate completely, which is probably not going to happen. And there are indeed many reasons why non-native speakers of English should contribute/use the English forums.

Anyway, this is what I said to you then, and I can only reiterate it:

http://www.proz.com/forum/site_forums/274501-what_bothers_you_about_the_forums-page4.html



[/quote]

Ok, I didn't even remember I posted in that thread and I didn't see your answer.

Anyway, I wanted to point out that "best rate/price" can be perceived differently, depending on the background/view/mind of any individual and not neccessarily it implies that the outsourcer/customer is mean, at least in my opinion.
On the other side, don't you quote your "best price" when you are approached by a new customer without having been specifically asked to? I do. I hope you see what I mean: I don't quote a price that probably would discourage the customer, but a price which is still lucrative for me. That is my best price (for both parties).


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:06
English to German
Price and Value May 6, 2015

As long as price is in line with the product they get for that price (Preisleistungsverhältnis auf gut Deutsch) I don't mind.

However, as this site appears to be full of very qualified and experienced translators, it would be sad, if they got a good translation for the little they spend.

[Edited at 2015-05-06 10:21 GMT]


 
Jeff Whittaker
Jeff Whittaker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:06
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
See this thread from 2008 May 6, 2015

http://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/97826-do_translators_need_sleep.html

Page 3 of the above thread reminded me of how much I really miss Nicole Schnell.

""Dear Colleague,

“We are offering translators the rare opportunity to work with our agency. It is Friday afternoon and we have 2,567,000 words that must to be
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http://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/97826-do_translators_need_sleep.html

Page 3 of the above thread reminded me of how much I really miss Nicole Schnell.

""Dear Colleague,

“We are offering translators the rare opportunity to work with our agency. It is Friday afternoon and we have 2,567,000 words that must to be translated in two days. Please do not bother to respond if you cannot meet this deadline (we need to have everything back by 3:00 pm this Sunday) of if you are not able to translate more than 20,000 words by this time. We know that this is a lot, but we could not say no to this great money-making opportunity for us and this great opportunity for some new translators to get some great experience. We need to roundup at least 115 more translators, so if you can type your name, you have the job. However, we do prefer translators who can offer good quality, are prompt and who offer discounts for large projects and for TRADOS repetitions. Because of the great volume of this job, we have very low budget and can pay no more than .03 a word, so please give us your very, very best, best-friends forever rate because we are a great company and we deserve it and please place the rate in the subject line (because of the rush schedule we do not have time to qualify anyone and only translators with the best rates will get the work). However, please note that even though you will be working for two days and nights without sleep on this highly-technical text, if our client finds that you have made even one small error, you will not be paid. The subject matter is very interesting and several of our translators have actually offered to do this job for us for free, but we understand if you need a little money to help defray the cost of electricity to operate your computer and coffee to stay awake. Translators are responsible for editing their own work – unfortunately, there is no money in the budget for us to do anything but pass your work on to the client. If only we could find a way to eliminate the need for silly translators from this process, our clients would be happy and we could make more money. However, once we piece together the work of over 100 high-quality translators like you working without sleep for less than 1/5 of the going rate, we are confident that our client will order more work from us in the future. Despite the rush nature of this project, translators will not be paid for 90 days.”
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Zhihua Liu
Zhihua Liu
China
Local time: 10:06
English to Chinese
+ ...
I don't see there's any problem May 7, 2015

For many times agencies asked me to provide my "best rate" and even some direct clients.
I just noticed the word "rate" and ignored the "best". Then, according to the fields, I provide a rate. For documents that are time-consuming, I have one rate, and for easy ones I have another rate.
For me, the word "best" means "fair".
Or, is this cultural difference?


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:06
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I see a lot wrong with it May 7, 2015

Zhihua wrote:

I don't see there's any problem

For many times agencies asked me to provide my "best rate" and even some direct clients.
I just noticed the word "rate" and ignored the "best". Then, according to the fields, I provide a rate. For documents that are time-consuming, I have one rate, and for easy ones I have another rate.
For me, the word "best" means "fair".
Or, is this cultural difference?


Hi Zhihua. Thank you for participating.

Did you read the whole thread? It explains a lot about why some of us find this kind of demand unacceptable.
But to your comments:

1. No, I don’t take someone asking for the best rate as asking for a fair rate.

They want you to give them the lowest rate (the best rate for them, not for you). They want translators to compete with the cheapest rates. That’s what they want. I doubt that such agencies will accept any reasonable rates. They already have a good idea of what they are willing to pay and if you can’t do it for that price, you’re not going to get the job.

In general, and you personally might well be an exception, I don’t believe it’s much of a cultural difference (anymore). There’s no excuse for any agency, wherever they are, to blatantly ask for the “best” rates or the “best” price. And eventually, this business “model” will fail because it takes “professionals” out of their translator pool (one important condition – it requires translators to know what professional prices are). You can imagine what that will do to the quality of translations.

When someone puts a project on a translation portal and asks for the best rate, the request doesn’t always come from China, India, and other regions of the world where many translation jobs over the last 15 or more years have been paid at less than reasonable prices, at least by many agencies that post such jobs. I’ve seen the posted jobs and I had my share of direct inquiries with cheap price proposals from agencies. And the jobs are not at all just directed towards Chinese or Indian native speakers who translate into their native language(s).

On the contrary, agencies from China or India often ask for English>German translations and a myriad of other language combinations. Does that mean that a German native speaker living in an English- or German-speaking country can be expected to carry out the project for a Chinese or Indian agency at prices that agency considers best? And as far as English-Chinese translations are concerned, why should you make so much less for excellent work that is being paid by clients from all over the world who depend on your expertise?

IMHO, translators must think much more “globally” about their profession.

What does “best” mean for these agencies? Really!

If you want to know, simply have a look at those job posts (often by the same agencies) that already propose a rate. They are way below any acceptable standard for professionals. USD .04/word is not a fair rate, not even in China. Have a look at ProZ.com community rates here which are still low but a start:

Worse, “best rate”-demands these days often come from all around the world, even from countries like the US, Germany, France, England, etc. These are rather recent developments I believe.

2..Asking for the best rate is like pretending to auction off a project, waiting for the “cheapest” bidder. That’s what “best rate” means. Note that the words “fair” or “professional” rate are hardly seen in job posts. The approach of such agencies is clearly this: let’s see who quotes the least amount of money. Then they either give the project away immediately (note that many of these posts are closed very quickly which proves that these agencies are not performing their due diligence when selecting translators for their projects, and how can they anyway when they approach you with projects that are supposed to be completed in “record” rush time) or possibly select among a few very “cheap” candidates who will do anything to get any type of translation project (some excuse this by saying they just want to get experience, or they are new and can’t charge as much as experienced colleagues).

Let me tell you, experienced colleagues get their jobs from other sources. But no one should accept ridiculous project proposals and demands to quote his best(=worst) rate, like a blind man who has never even seen the text he’s supposed to be working on and should accept a pittance for it.

But why care, really?

Because all these cheap projects should instead be carried out at reasonable prices by hard-working professionals (a prerequisite for any real professional). For some people, this is one of the hardest things to fathom. But they belong to a rather large group of likewise thinkers who don’t consider fair prices a priority, at least not at first, until they learn what it really is they have agreed to do. But if some of them possibly give up after a few of these projects, there are surely plenty of other newbies taking their place. That’s what keeps these cheap agencies in business.

Again, why should you or I worry about it? Because many potentially well-paid projects are lost to a crowd of translators that doesn’t know or doesn’t want to know any better or simply refuses to see the light. Instead, they’re suck..s (excuse me) for cheap rates. - But now I am repeating myself (please read my previous posts).

3. You say you ignore the word ”best” and quote the price/rate you believe to be fair – I hope fair to you?! Question: how many of these “best rate” jobs from job boards have you actually received? And more importantly: at what rate exactly? I don’t expect you to tell us here in public but you have a good idea of what I consider an unacceptable rate.

4. The translator’s approach: We shouldn’t “bid” for jobs, and this wasn’t the original intention on any of the job boards on various platforms (at least I hope so). But agencies and translators have created a monster (excuse the expression).

But I am still hopeful that the monster will be unable to do the professional job much longer because through education, many newcomers can possibly be shown the wrongs of this approach and bring the monster to his knees (hopeful sigh).
So, yes, I find a lot wrong with “asking for the best rate.” It stands for lack of respect and certainly something completely different than “best practices.”


[Edited at 2015-05-07 03:50 GMT]


 
Zhihua Liu
Zhihua Liu
China
Local time: 10:06
English to Chinese
+ ...
I understand May 7, 2015

Hi Bernhard,thanks for your long explanation.
I do understand your points and your concerns. I also think it unreasonable and unacceptable to bid with low rates. I used to bid with .03 or .04 long time ago, but not any more.
May be they should change "best rate" to "professional rate", that would be with much respect.


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:06
English to German
Bernhard May 7, 2015

How do sites like Elance and ODesk fit in with your theories?

Jobs go for next to nothing there, wouldn't these people be better off posting their jobs there and why don't they go there if quality isn't that important?

[Edited at 2015-05-07 09:07 GMT]


 
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