| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Liabilities Agencies face alone. Thread poster: Chinmayi Sripada
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| Nobody is excusing bad quality | Jun 25, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: I'm not suprised (but still amazed) that half of the replies in this thread blame low rates, even though rates were never an issue in this case. Some of the replies even excuse the translators' low quality in the light of the rates presumably paid. But although I agree that there is generally a correlation between rates and quality, I disagree that any translator is excused from delivering poor quality (in this case, reject-grade quality) because of a low rate. Unless the translator has warned the client that he'll do slipshod work for the slipshod rate, he must deliver high quality if he accepts the rate. Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Strange that you don't mention rates or money at all when it is well known that you get what you pay for. This is false logic. The adage that "you get what you pay for" is often true, but it can't be used as a rule to determine what rate was probably paid (i.e. if the quality was poor, then the rate must have been low).
You are making your own interpretation of these comments, an interpretation that probably wasn't intended. My question about rates certainly was not intended in that sense.
I have not seen anyone excuse bad quality regardless of the rates, but we all know that the lower the rate gets, the higher the risk of getting bad quality. We also know the reason: the good translators don't accept low rates, so those who pay low rates are left to choose between the not-so-good translators.
"I visited Paris but the food was horrible; how can that be in a city of gastronomy?"
The chance of eating well, even in Paris, is much higher if you choose your restaurants carefully and pay what a good meal is expected to cost than if you drop into some €1-kebab corner shop in a run-down suburb. That's not an excuse to serve bad kebabs, you'd say, but welcome to the real world. This is how it is, and any good agency knows that.
There is no 'false logic' in Bernhard's reply. He merely states how things are. Nobody has said it can be used as a rule to determine which rate was paid; that's your own interpretation.
But so far, we have not been informed which rate was paid, and that's why I asked. It's an important factor.
Samuel Murray wrote:
Also, the fact that the original poster got a bad apple this time does not say anything about the effectiveness of her recruitment process overall. Her Blue Board page shows lots of 5s, meaning these translators were paid, meaning their translations were not rejected by the clients. But no matter how careful we are, we sometimes misjudge whether a translator will deliver good quality. The solution to Chinmayi's problem is not to "overhaul her recruitment procedures". If those procedures are adequate in 99% of cases, then the fault (and the solution) does not lie there.
Now you are making conclusions about what the problem is or isn't, and without having any information about how she selects translators. You are stretching the Blue Board way too far. The Blue Board can be manipulated, but I must underscore that I do not accuse Chinmayi of that. Nevertheless, it is a fact that some agencies that are given a bad score bully the translator to get the score improved or removed. That's what happened to me once, and not everybody will stand their ground as I did. Other translators may avoid posting a bad score out of fear of intimidation or for other reasons (some of us are brought up to be 'nice', turn the other cheek, never complain etc.), but you'll never get any trouble posting a 5.
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 16:03
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Then, why is rate relevant? | Jun 25, 2015 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
You are making your own interpretation of these comments, an interpretation that probably wasn't intended. My question about rates certainly was not intended in that sense.
If not, then why ask it? What is the relevance of rates here? If the rate was quite low, how would that have changed your response from if the rate was quite high? It doesn't change the fact that a translator delivered a bad translation, and the fact that if the agency complains about this in the forums, many replies blame the agency, not the translator.
There is no 'false logic' in Bernhard's reply. He merely states how things are.
Yes, he states how things are... but why does he? Surely because he's trying to make a point. And what is his point? He doesn't say, but in the context (i.e. based on what he quoted when he said it), it seems to me that he's trying to say "if the quality was poor, then the rate must have been low". If I'm wrong, and that's not what he was trying to say, then I'd be happy to hear from him what point he was really trying to make with his comment.
Now you are making conclusions about what the problem is or isn't, and without having any information about how she selects translators.
It's true that I don't know how she selects translators, but neither does anyone else here (despite the fact that several replies seem to put the blame on it).
The Blue Board can be manipulated ... [and] it is a fact that some agencies that are given a bad score bully the translator to get the score improved or removed.
That is true, and unfortunately it is such a regular occurence that when an agency with a complaint has lots of 5s, the agency is treated by some repliers with the same disregard as an agency with lots of 1s and 2s. This is related to the original poster's original complaint.
| | | | Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:03
German to English
+ ...
| Irrelevant points | Jun 25, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Angela Rimmer wrote:
I can sympathise to an extent. I have had translators go AWOL right when a huge deadline is due. The most recent situation involved 40,000+ words of Finnish and a "hard disk failure" that supposedly occurred the night before the files were due to be delivered. After the initial message about technical problems and a delivery of a measly 4000 words, the translator dropped off the face of the earth, reappearing every 4 hours or so to send me indignant self-righteous replies about how he was trying his best to recover the work on the failed drive -- but with the total lack of communication and the quality of the "recovered" files he did manage to deliver, it was difficult to believe his story about the computer failure. ... Two things. Strange that you don't mention rates or money at all when it is well known that you get what you pay for. Secondly, when there are software or hardware failures, and you have hired a pro, it's not likely he or she is lying. With a crazy deadline, anyone would try to keep working and get the job done asap. Here's another piece of advice: if you need to deliver to your client at 9:00 am, don't make 7:00 am the deadline for your translator. There should be at least 24 hours between these deadlines, if not much more. Depending on the size of the project. [Edited at 2015-06-25 00:58 GMT]
What is your problem, Bernhard? I didn't mention rates because the rate had nothing to do with it. In my case, the translator set his own rate (on which I based my quote for the client; I did not bargain him down) -- and it was a totally professional-level rate. In fact, I very rarely negotiate my translators down; I respect them as my colleagues and as professionals and as such they set their own rates. I'm very tired of you implying in this forum that I don't pay translators fairly! You and I have never worked together, so how would you know?!
Second, there was a reasonable proofreading buffer built into the deadline, so my return deadline for the client was not at 9:00 with a 2-hour buffer like in your example. Unfortunately the translator went AWOL and delayed for so long that the proofreading deadline was completely eaten up, but the fact remains, there WAS a buffer for some delays. And actually the translator had already requested an extension previously, which had been granted.
Sometimes things go wrong, like disk failures or deaths in the family or whatever, but when things go wrong, you don't disappear and stop answering emails, you communicate clearly so that the client can be made aware of the situation, otherwise a natural assumption will be that you are not trustworthy and perhaps your excuse is simply just a lie.
And by the way, I have seen professionals go AWOL when a big delivery is due and they're not ready. Once it happened to me with a translator who had always done good work on time previously. These things happen, albeit rarely, but they do happen, even with professionals -- so sometimes it's not a case of "you didn't choose a pro, you paid too little, you had unreasonable deadlines, blah blah blah"
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:03
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Not professionals | Jun 25, 2015 |
Angela Rimmer wrote:
.... I have seen professionals go AWOL...
In that case, they can't be described as "professionals".
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| I have already explained why it is relevant | Jun 25, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
You are making your own interpretation of these comments, an interpretation that probably wasn't intended. My question about rates certainly was not intended in that sense. If not, then why ask it? What is the relevance of rates here? If the rate was quite low, how would that have changed your response from if the rate was quite high? It doesn't change the fact that a translator delivered a bad translation, and the fact that if the agency complains about this in the forums, many replies blame the agency, not the translator.
As I tried to explain in my Paris-restaurant-example, it is highly relevant. If you choose the cheapest suppliers, the risk of getting bad quality is much higher. That may not be right in an imagination of an ideal world, but that's how things are in the real world, and if you want to systematically drag the bad suppliers through the courts for delivering bad quality, you will most likely end up spending more money than if you had just paid a decent rate up front. That's not a way to run an agency.
In any case, we were asked how it could be that the agency had ended up in such trouble, so we need to ask relevant questions to try to understand the situation. The rate is an essential part of the situation.
Samuel Murray wrote: There is no 'false logic' in Bernhard's reply. He merely states how things are. Yes, he states how things are... but why does he? Surely because he's trying to make a point. And what is his point? He doesn't say, but in the context (i.e. based on what he quoted when he said it), it seems to me that he's trying to say "if the quality was poor, then the rate must have been low". If I'm wrong, and that's not what he was trying to say, then I'd be happy to hear from him what point he was really trying to make with his comment.
" it seems to me that he's trying to say "if the quality was poor, then the rate must have been low""
Your interpretations must be for your own account. You're actually breaching Forum Rule 5 by speculating: "Speculating on others' opinions is not allowed. Commenting on others' opinions without authorization ('Jenny seems to think...'), is not allowed."
As for the link between low rates and poor quality, it has been explained already.
Samuel Murray wrote: Now you are making conclusions about what the problem is or isn't, and without having any information about how she selects translators. It's true that I don't know how she selects translators, but neither does anyone else here (despite the fact that several replies seem to put the blame on it).
That's why I asked her, and I'm still waiting for a reply. I don't jump to conclusions.
Samuel Murray wrote:
when an agency with a complaint has lots of 5s, the agency is treated by some repliers with the same disregard as an agency with lots of 1s and 2s. This is related to the original poster's original complaint.
In this specific case, the poster has been banned from posting jobs, so there must be more behind it than what can be seen on the Blue Board.
| | | | Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:03
German to English
+ ...
| Sometimes professionals are unprofessional | Jun 25, 2015 |
Tom in London wrote: Angela Rimmer wrote:
.... I have seen professionals go AWOL... In that case, they can't be described as "professionals".
I suppose what I mean in this case is that they have the credentials, they have the experience, they are full-time freelancers, and they have a reliable and trustworthy working relationship with the client or outsourcer or whoever, so there are no red flags that might indicate that they are going to suddenly do something wildly unprofessional.
And my point is that even someone like that will sometimes let you down. We are all human, and mistakes happen. A common saying about business is that the success of a business is not the product of how the company runs when things are going right, but how the company handles a situation when things have gone wrong. Sometimes professionals have problems and in the moment, they don't handle the situation well. That doesn't make them horrible people or even horrible translators, but it does call into question their reliability and the trust relationship has to be rebuilt.
I'm rather frustrated that no one seems to want to admit that sometimes even professionals are unprofessional.
(edited for a typo)
[Edited at 2015-06-25 11:59 GMT]
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Angela Rimmer wrote:
I'm rather frustrated that no one seems to want to admit that sometimes even professionals are unprofessional.
(edited for a typo)
[Edited at 2015-06-25 11:59 GMT]
A real professional will always stay in touch when things go wrong and communicate with the client to solve the problem... I had my son hospitalised for meningitis a few years back... I still found the time to notify the agency, who found a replacement for the second part of the job... I agree with Tom: a real professional is never unprofessional, unless something really bad happens to you, like being involved in a car crash...
| | | | Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:03
German to English
+ ...
| Shock announcement | Jun 25, 2015 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
A real professional will always stay in touch when things go wrong and communicate with the client to solve the problem... I agree with Tom: a real professional is never unprofessional, unless something really bad happens to you, like being involved in a car crash...
One of the greatest shocks I got when I switched from translating full-time to project management was how many "professionals" are not professional, or at least are not professional all the time. It is VERY surprising how unprofessional some people are, and I believe this is true for all industries, not just ours. Some people do not handle stress well. You may well be the most professional professional of them all, but trust me when I say that some of our colleagues, even those who we regard highly as true professionals, can drop the ball under stress and be rude, go AWOL, throw insults, make outrageous excuses, etc.
I once had a translator who is well known in our small world of professionals send me an email that simply read "Fuck you" in reply to a request to update his details for the company's database.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 16:03
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Paris and Delhi | Jun 25, 2015 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
As I tried to explain in my Paris-restaurant-example, it is highly relevant. If you choose the cheapest suppliers, the risk of getting bad quality is much higher.
That is true, but a cheap price in Paris may be a high price in Delhi.
The original poster is from India. The moment she mentions her rate (likely a "Delhi" rate), the "Paris" translators will pounce and say "look, cheap price, own fault, just deserts".
In any case, we were asked how it could be that the agency had ended up in such trouble, so we need to ask relevant questions to try to understand the situation.
I apologise, then. I did not realise that that was the question.
See, I thought the issue was "why do agencies get the blame [e.g. on the forums] when translators are at fault". In such cases, agencies get the blame regardless of what rate was paid or what recruitment process was followed, so knowing what the rate was or how the translator was selected will be merely interesting but would not help to find a solution. That's my thinking.
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Angela Rimmer wrote:
You may well be the most professional professional of them all, but trust me when I say that some of our colleagues, even those who we regard highly as true professionals, can drop the ball under stress and be rude, go AWOL, throw insults, make outrageous excuses, etc.
I once had a translator who is well known in our small world of professionals send me an email that simply read "Fuck you" in reply to a request to update his details for the company's database.
I know it happens... but really? Doesn't cost much to be polite and responsive - even under stress... at the end of the day, it's a business relationship... if people behave like that, they obviously can't manage their business properly... no need to be rude! 
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Samuel Murray wrote:
That is true, but a cheap price in Paris may be a high price in Delhi.
The original poster is from India. The moment she mentions her rate (likely a "Delhi" rate), the "Paris" translators will pounce and say "look, cheap price, own fault, just deserts".
Yes, but that doesn't mean that all the translators are in Delhi too. The range for what is a decent rate depends more on the language needed than where the agency is. We still don't know what sort of rate was paid, and it's difficult to know what to think if we don't get more details.
Samuel Murray wrote: In any case, we were asked how it could be that the agency had ended up in such trouble, so we need to ask relevant questions to try to understand the situation. See, I thought the issue was "why do agencies get the blame [e.g. on the forums] when translators are at fault". In such cases, agencies get the blame regardless of what rate was paid or what recruitment process was followed, so knowing what the rate was or how the translator was selected will be merely interesting but would not help to find a solution. That's my thinking.
The question was formulated as if it were a general truth, but we don't know that, so we have to deal with the specific example.
Agencies are obviously directly responsible to their clients for the end result, so they'll always get the blame from their clients. So to avoid being blamed, they need to manage their business carefully, and selecting good suppliers is a key element of that. The rate is a key element in choosing a supplier. If the rate one is willing to pay is simply too low to get a decent quality, then dealing with that problem has to be part of the solution.
There can obviously be other factors involved, not least cultural differences, but that's an explosive subject, as it can easily offend some people.
[Edited at 2015-06-25 12:35 GMT]
| | | | Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:03
German to English
+ ...
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: I know it happens... but really? Doesn't cost much to be polite and responsive - even under stress... at the end of the day, it's a business relationship... if people behave like that, they obviously can't manage their business properly... no need to be rude!
I agree!
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Chinmayi Sripada wrote:
In this scenario, why do I always have to bear the brunt of arm twisting by linguists on forums like these when I am not at fault at all?
Do you have a contract that you send your translators to complete before assigning jobs? Because if you have a well-drawn up document that stipulates the duties and rights of each party, I fail to see why any "arm twisting" needs to take place.
Chinmayi Sripada wrote:
And why do forums like these taint businesses negatively and always seem to be on the side of the linguist even if they err?
I have been on ProZ for around ten years now, and the discussion seems to me to be well-balanced. However it IS a forum for translators rather than agencies, so perhaps it is understandable if discussions often take place from the translator's point of view.
[Edited at 2015-06-25 15:35 GMT]
| | | | | Clarification | Jun 25, 2015 |
Angela Rimmer wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Two things. Strange that you don't mention rates or money at all when it is well known that you get what you pay for.
Secondly, when there are software or hardware failures, and you have hired a pro, it's not likely he or she is lying. With a crazy deadline, anyone would try to keep working and get the job done asap.
Here's another piece of advice: if you need to deliver to your client at 9:00 am, don't make 7:00 am the deadline for your translator. There should be at least 24 hours between these deadlines, if not much more. Depending on the size of the project.
[Edited at 2015-06-25 00:58 GMT] What is your problem, Bernhard? I didn't mention rates because the rate had nothing to do with it. In my case, the translator set his own rate (on which I based my quote for the client; ..."
I don't have a problem, Angela. I am not commenting on your services but on your explanations for the original poster's problems. In your comments, you don't talk about rates or payment.
| | | | Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:03
German to English
+ ...
| Rates/payment not relevant IMO | Jun 25, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I don't have a problem, Angela. I am not commenting on your services but on your explanations for the original poster's problems. In your comments, you don't talk about rates or payment.
Because once again, like other posters here, I fail to see why rate is relevant. While I don't know what rates the original poster agreed with her translators, number one, the rate was agreed, she didn't force anyone to accept, and number two, I have seen these situations happen with translators who I know for a fact are being paid professional-level rates. Again, you can bang on about rates, but it is still a fact that sometimes people let you down and it has nothing to do with rates.
Also, I understood the original poster's question to be, "How do I deal with a situation where a translator has let me down and yet I am the one who gets bullied?" To me, the answer does not come down to rates or payment -- as far as I can see, she pays translators, sometimes even more quickly than she should. And rates are not relevant. She had an agreement with a translator, and the translator didn't deliver. If the rate was too low, then the fault still lies with the translator who agreed on the rate and yet didn't provide the promised product, if that is indeed what happened.
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