| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Attention Outsourcers: "best" rate Thread poster: Susan Welsh
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Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 13:29
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Not necessarily | Jun 27, 2015 |
Susan Welsh wrote:
For an outsourcer to ask potential translators to give their "best" rate is like hanging out a big, red flag inscribed: WE ARE BOTTOM-FEEDERS, LOOKING FOR CHEAPEST TRANSLATORS; QUALITY IS NOT AN ISSUE.
You seem to be assuming that offering translation at competitive rates is a blemish, something of which these agencies should be ashamed of. That may not be so, for the agencies are following a well-thought out and highly successful business strategy of offering services at the lowest possible cost. That translators get squeezed in the process is a different issue altogether, and agencies can't be blamed for the inability of translators to stand up to their (that is, translators') rates.
The lowest-cost-of-services model has been successfully implemented by a host of industries and countries - the entire China model (and earlier the Japanese and Korean models) are exactly that, as also the software outsourcing industry.
Of course it makes life difficult for freelance translators, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the model itself is faulty or unethical (at least not from the point of agencies). Low cost ultimately benefits society by making a host of services within the reach of a wider ambit of consumers.
Maybe, we are seeing the sunset days of freelance translation, where it becomes unsustainable to be a freelancer at the rates now available. Translators might have to move into full-time positions to survive. This happened with software programming also. There was time when there used to be many freelance programmers (Bill Gates was one of them, working from his garage to develop DOS), but now it is more usual to find software programmers working fulltime for large software companies. The genre of freelance programming has not exactly gone extinct, and many intrepid programmers do still eke out an existence by freelancing, but the norm with programming has now become that of full-time employment.
May be the same will happen with translation, and freelance translators as we know them today will go the dinosaur way.
| | | | | This isn't the whole market though! | Jun 27, 2015 |
I do not think you should stop educating anyone, as you put it, (i.e., expressing your concerns), especially here, where such education is most needed, at least judging by what is going on on the jobs board.
As you have expressed a few times, low bidders really affect the overall market, regardless of what some say: "Oh, it only affects the lowest segment of the market," or something along those lines.
We have all seen what happens when an oil spill occurs in the... See more I do not think you should stop educating anyone, as you put it, (i.e., expressing your concerns), especially here, where such education is most needed, at least judging by what is going on on the jobs board.
As you have expressed a few times, low bidders really affect the overall market, regardless of what some say: "Oh, it only affects the lowest segment of the market," or something along those lines.
We have all seen what happens when an oil spill occurs in the sea. It does not stop here or there, just keeps expanding until, hopefully, proper measures are taken.
By voicing our concerns, sooner o later, some low bidders might learn that if they deliver quality work they are entitled to livable rates, or even some bottom feeders might realize that by being willing to pay decent rates the likelihood of them getting quality work is naturally higher, less risky, for obvious reasons. Yes, rates count.
I am sure, way many more colleagues that you think see things the way you do, Bernard. Me, among them.
Please keep expressing your opinions, especially here...
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There are other job boards where you can find 10+ jobs posted daily in my language pair alone and posters expect to pay a pittance, even the better ones - and they do. I do believe that most people there are amateurs, but also very qualified new translators who don't know any better yet. There are several of these sites and admittedly they do appear to make quite a chunk of the market. These sites are quickly found when you google, so who can blame many clients, who don't know much about translation, that it should be cheap?
And as long as there are these expectations there will be takers for these jobs. But I do believe that clients will on the whole realise that these people do not work for a living wage and that they will get what they pay for in the end. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 03:59
Japanese to English
+ ...
A few weeks ago I was in a Starbucks and I heard two Americans talking about a factory of theirs in Bangladesh. One guy said he wanted to pay workers twenty-five cents an hour. The other guy said that was too high and he would pay fifteen cents an hour. Btw, I was recently contacted by an agency in India. They were offering me twenty-five cents. Not twenty-five cents a word but twenty-five cents a page (for medical Japanese). Race to the bottom.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 15:59
Chinese to English
| The error in best rate thinking | Jun 27, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
To me, "best rate" simply means "the rate you would have hoped to arrived at if we had been negotiating".
I think Samuel's absolutely right, but it remains true that the phrase "best rate" is associated with the lower price end of the market. And that's where the error lies. Actually, at the low end of the market more time is spent on negotiating rates than at the high end. With my good client, the rates discussion goes like this:
Me: My rate is X, I could get it done by Tuesday.
Client: Fine, could you make it Monday night?
Me: Sure.
With lower end clients, the rates discussion goes:
Me: My rate is X.
Client: Oh, that's a bit much for us on this project. We have a lot of high-paying work coming up you know, so perhaps you could do this one for us at X/3?
Me: No.
Client: Well what about X/2? We're building a long term relationship here...
Etc., etc.
The "best rate" is kind of a recognition that they're not the kind of client who can just pay the money. They know that they're going to have to negotiate, and they know it's a waste of everyone's time, and they're trying to forestall it... but they can't.
It's meaningless, and I don't hold it against a client. But the fact remains that when I see that phrase, I know the chances of real work resulting are lower.
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| Exploiting the vulnerable | Jun 27, 2015 |
Michael Newton wrote:
A few weeks ago I was in a Starbucks and I heard two Americans talking about a factory of theirs in Bangladesh. One guy said he wanted to pay workers twenty-five cents an hour. The other guy said that was too high and he would pay fifteen cents an hour. Btw, I was recently contacted by an agency in India. They were offering me twenty-five cents. Not twenty-five cents a word but twenty-five cents a page (for medical Japanese). Race to the bottom.
Yes, this appears to happen a lot and not only in Bangladesh. I read an article about factory workers from Eastern European countries, who are paid and treated dismally.
Maybe 25 cents per hour would amount to a reasonable living wage in Bangladesh (?), but no, they (business) always want more, no matter how - this is called greed.
But I wouldn't have put translators in this group of vulnerable people?! I think most have the choice to say no.
| | | | | Unprofessional rates? | Jun 27, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It's not a win-win when you undercut other professionals. Yes, these posters don't pay much anyway. But it is a problem when they are able to always find people who are willing to work for unprofessional rates. Do you see the big picture? It all has repercussions for all of us.
[Edited at 2015-06-26 14:44 GMT]
Jumping to conclusions is something I see as unprofessional. Lowering a rate by a cent or two in order to get a project of around 60,000 words with a deadline of 4 months is undercutting other professionals? For me - it is just a business deal. You want it fast - it is .xx Euro/word. You can wait - it is .xx - 0.01 (or 0.02). Time is money. I get a bit less for this particular project, but I can take ALL the projects that are coming my way for my regular rate and take care of this one when there is nothing else. It makes my workflow steady.
I should also mention that most professional translators in my pair work for much less than my reduced rate. So, yes - I see 'the big picture', and no - it does not have that kind of 'repercussions for all of us'.
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Yeah, I should give up educating anyone. Especially here.
I'm all for education, how else can we convey to clients that certain aspects of their behaviour is damaging?
What I'm not for is rehashing old discussions without adding anything new. This issue has already been discussed - why open a new thread about it?
Surely it's obvious that the client wants to pay as little as possible? It's called "making a profit". But - apart from the fact that "best rate" is open to interpretation - it doesn't mean you have to pander to some implied demand on his or her part to lower your rates. YOU set your rates. If you don't like the offer, don't apply. Or turn it around, and use it as a "filter" to decide that company isn't worth working for.
| | | | | A recent offer from a US-based agency | Jun 27, 2015 |
Hi Vladimir,
My name is ..., with ... Translations and I am reaching out to you regarding a potential partnership opportunity.
... is a translation agency that has been serving the largest multi-national companies in the world for over 22 years now.
We have been receiving a lot of client feedback recently that our translation rates are no longer competitive in the market. Based on this, we have decided to open our doors to some potential new partnerships, ... See more Hi Vladimir,
My name is ..., with ... Translations and I am reaching out to you regarding a potential partnership opportunity.
... is a translation agency that has been serving the largest multi-national companies in the world for over 22 years now.
We have been receiving a lot of client feedback recently that our translation rates are no longer competitive in the market. Based on this, we have decided to open our doors to some potential new partnerships, something we don't do often.
We are very loyal to our translators and for this reason look to work with only the best people that we can see ourselves in a long term partnership with. We have reviewed many translator portals in great detail and picked a handful of people to interview with us. We found your qualifications to fit our needs and would like extend to you this opportunity for us to work together. We can offer a compensation of 2 cents/word at this time.
If this is something that may interest you, here are the main things we are looking for:
- Talented translator who is a native speaker of English and can translate from Russian to English.
- Has experience and interest to work in the video game industry
- Strong attention to detail
- Basic computer skills
If you are interested, we would love to setup some time for us to chat over the phone/Skype.
---------------------------------------------
As you may see they don't want monkeys, they want "to work with only the best people", "talented translator[s]... who have experience and interest to work in the video game industry... strong attention to detail." They offer a compensation of 2 cents/word, and they call it an opportunity, which suggests that they expect a professional translator with a proven 28-year track record in the translation industry (and several other industries and sectors) to jump at this rare chance to work for "a translation agency that has been serving the largest multi-national companies in the world for over 22 years now".
========My response=========
Thank you for your letter and for your interest in my services.
With regard to our potential collaboration, if your offered rate of USD 0.02 per source word is not an unfortunate typo, it means we work in different sectors of the translation industry. My direct clients pay me up to USD 0.20 per source word. Even when I started working for overseas translation agencies back in 2002, I charged USD 0.06 per source word.
As a counter offer, I might send you translation jobs in the English-Russian language pair to be paid at USD 0.08, provided that you deliver quality product.
If interested, we can discuss this in more detail.
---------------------------------------------
Generally, such generous offers go straight into my trash bin. This time I responded as shown above. Mind you, I did not want to educate them, because I consider this to be a hopeless case. It's just that I had some time to spare and I wanted to let them know my opinion. I don't think this might convert them somehow, though... ▲ Collapse
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| Are they really in the US, or do they just claim to be there? | Jun 27, 2015 |
It's easy to claim you are based somewhere, but it's always wise to verify it, not least by looking up where their IP address is located (when possible; it's always indicated in e-mails sent via Proz). One can use ipgeek.net or a similar service for that. Another clue is what time of the day they send e-mails.
Someone claiming to be based in the US contacted me, but his e-mail was sent in the middle of the night relative to the US time zone he claimed to be in, and it was sent from ... See more It's easy to claim you are based somewhere, but it's always wise to verify it, not least by looking up where their IP address is located (when possible; it's always indicated in e-mails sent via Proz). One can use ipgeek.net or a similar service for that. Another clue is what time of the day they send e-mails.
Someone claiming to be based in the US contacted me, but his e-mail was sent in the middle of the night relative to the US time zone he claimed to be in, and it was sent from an IP address in Malaysia from a gmail address. When I asked if he had something to justify that he was who he claimed to be, I heard nothing more. His Blue Board was full of 5's, but a Proz profile can always be hacked. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Vladimir's 2-cent e-mail is a typical scam: it begins with endless, pompous blah-blah to justify themselves in a way that only a scammer would, and it tries to flatter you. "Largest multinational companies" is scam technique number 3, meant to impress you and make them look credible. Not even worth a reply.
But this is really a subject for a scam forum. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | They appear to be legit, judging from the details I have | Jun 27, 2015 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
It's easy to claim you are based somewhere, but it's always wise to verify it, not least by looking up where their IP address is located (when possible; it's always indicated in e-mails sent via Proz). One can use ipgeek.net or a similar service for that. Another clue is what time of the day they send e-mails.
Their website says they are based in California, USA, which is confirmed by the IP address. And I received their message at approx. 2pm California time.
| | | | | Giving them the benefit of the doubt | Jun 27, 2015 |
In spite of the innuendo that "best rate" implies "as cheap as it could be", I play naive, and ignore it.
I take a holier-than-thou, thoroughly professional attitude, assuming that they mean that they don't want to WASTE money on anything that is not necessary.
So I state my STANDARD rate for COD payment via bank transfer, and explain that they'll be saving:
a) 10% by paying COD and not 30 days later, because the interest rate in my country is 10% per month; and<... See more In spite of the innuendo that "best rate" implies "as cheap as it could be", I play naive, and ignore it.
I take a holier-than-thou, thoroughly professional attitude, assuming that they mean that they don't want to WASTE money on anything that is not necessary.
So I state my STANDARD rate for COD payment via bank transfer, and explain that they'll be saving:
a) 10% by paying COD and not 30 days later, because the interest rate in my country is 10% per month; and
b) another 10% on PayPal fees (6.5% deducted right away + 3.5% in lower-than-market foreign currency exchange rate).
All this is done at the expense of PayPal and greedy banks in Brazil, and it is indeed my best (and only) rate.
[Edited at 2015-06-27 14:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 13:29
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Rates flexibility is closely linke with cost of living | Jun 27, 2015 |
Rate flexibility is clearly related to cost of living. If the cost of living around you is low, you can still make a living with low rates, but if it is high, as it is in developed countries, low rates become unsustainable, as translators cannot survive on the low rates that are available to them.
This bodes ill for translators in the developed parts of the world with high cost of living, as they are effectively priced out of the low rate jobs. This shrinks their market. As long as ... See more Rate flexibility is clearly related to cost of living. If the cost of living around you is low, you can still make a living with low rates, but if it is high, as it is in developed countries, low rates become unsustainable, as translators cannot survive on the low rates that are available to them.
This bodes ill for translators in the developed parts of the world with high cost of living, as they are effectively priced out of the low rate jobs. This shrinks their market. As long as the market itself is growing, and the translation market does seem to be growing, this may not be an issue for them, but as the market matures and stabilizes (which may not happen for decades), freelance translation may no longer be a worthwhile proposition in developed countries.
This has happened to a lot of industries before too. The garment industry of Bangladesh has come up in this thread, but it has also affected a host of other industries from mobile phone manufacture to cars. All these have shifted to more cost-effective countries.
May be, freelance translators in the developed countries would have to follow the jobs and migrate to the low cost regions of world for survival!
With rates going south (both literally and figuratively) this may be an astute strategy for them! ▲ Collapse
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| NO, thank you! | Jun 27, 2015 |
Vladimir Pochinov wrote: --------------------------------------------- Generally, such generous offers go straight into my trash bin. This time I responded as shown above. Mind you, I did not want to educate them, because I consider this to be a hopeless case. It's just that I had some time to spare and I wanted to let them know my opinion. I don't think this might convert them somehow, though...
It's not so much about educating and convincing outsourcers, it's about getting translators to realize that they are being exploited when they work with companies like that and that they are unfairly undercutting professionals (now I am talking about the 0.05 - 0.07/word type of translator - yes, that's generally very low). I am talking about those who actually do their best (use CAT tools, let themselves be duped into additional fuzzy word and 100% repetition discounts, agree to do post-"editing" MT for even less - search for forum posts on that -) and get lousy compensation. This is not the way to become a successful translator and it's not good for any of us.
Once those who started out as monkeys (hamsters) fall on their a.. and bow out, the next wave of innocent, naive, or plainly ignorant people are ready to work for peanuts or jump on the hamster reel.
But I have a feeling that eventually, the "news" (it's really a shame it still happens) will spread among those who listen and are willing to understand that you're not doing yourself any favor when you do intellectual work for a pittance. And I am not just talking about the 0.02/word jobs. To do a professional job and have a career, you need to work for good money, you need the time to do a good job, and you're not going to sit for 12 or 13 hours straight to fulfill some ridiculous deadline. Eventually, it will catch up with you.
And let's not pretend we're in a professional environment when people post jobs for USD 0.02 - USD 0.07/word, expect experts, CAT tools, quick turnarounds and payment terms of 45 - 90 days.
"Best rates/prices?!" "Skype us?!" "Long term cooperation"?! "Large volume project (millions of words") "Have been in business for 20 years providing services for Fortune 500 companies?!" "Have our own online CAT tool with great support" ......... "Unpaid 400 word translation test is required" "Need at least three verifiable references" "Great opportunity to receive follow-up jobs" ....
Who are you kidding?! I hold it all screams: We're cheap. And you do as we say.
NO, thank you!
There is a professional market and this ain't it. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can move on and work on a real career (and do us all a big favor too). If not, you'll fall flat on your face rather sooner than later. Just my thoughts.
PS: Being a professional translator is not about "surviving." It's about running an excellent and profitable business.
[Edited at 2015-06-28 01:48 GMT]
| | | | Peter Zhuang
Germany
Local time: 09:59
German to English
+ ...
| Is the phrase "best price" really the problem? | Jun 28, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
PS: Being a professional translator is not about "surviving." It's about running an excellent and profitable business.
[Edited at 2015-06-28 01:48 GMT]
In other words, you want outsourcers to pay the price that is the best for you.
Is it not fair to say that everyone running a business wants the "best price" for themself. You probably wouldn't complain much if an outsourcer offers you the "best word price" of 0.15 USD. As blunt as the phrase "best price" is, I am not too sure if the problem really lies with it.
| | | | | Get some more info | Jun 29, 2015 |
Peter Zhuang wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
PS: Being a professional translator is not about "surviving." It's about running an excellent and profitable business.
[Edited at 2015-06-28 01:48 GMT] In other words, you want outsourcers to pay the price that is the best for you. Is it not fair to say that everyone running a business wants the "best price" for themself. You probably wouldn't complain much if an outsourcer offers you the "best word price" of 0.15 USD. As blunt as the phrase "best price" is, I am not too sure if the problem really lies with it.
This is all about cheap and unprofessional outsourcers. That's what it means when a poster demands the best ( = cheapest) rate/price. This has nothing to do with being blunt or running a professional translation agency "offering a good price." Demanding the best rate/price is an insult to any pro, it's unreasonable, and certainly unprofessional. If you can't understand that, maybe reread some of the forum threads on the subject. Unfortunately, you are in "good" company. Educate yourself would be my advice.
[Edited at 2015-06-29 18:27 GMT]
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