| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Attention Outsourcers: "best" rate Thread poster: Susan Welsh
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MK2010 
United States
Local time: 07:47
French to English
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| Everybody here is making good points... | Jul 1, 2015 |
...and I think there are just differences of opinion and that's pretty much the way these things go. I tend to look at things on an hourly basis. Let's say it takes me 3 hours to make 100 dollars. That's 33.00 dollars an hour. I find that an acceptable wage. Even with my lowest paying client, whom I am strongly thinking of ditching, when I calculate the hourly rate for the bi-weekly work I do for them, it's still acceptable (although borderline), especially where I live.
| | | | | To those who say the phrase in not offensive | Jul 1, 2015 |
I'll believe you only after you have tried the same phrase with other providers of the services you use, namely your dentist, your solicitor, your accountant or even your cleaning service, and came out unscathed.
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 19:47
Member
Chinese to English
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| Why don't you take the comparison all the way? | Jul 1, 2015 |
Iza Szczypka wrote: I'll believe you only after you have tried the same phrase with other providers of the services you use, namely your dentist, your solicitor, your accountant or even your cleaning service, and came out unscathed.
Do no remote work and take all clients in your local office, and I might take your analogy a little bit seriously.
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Lincoln Hui wrote:
Do no remote work and take all clients in your local office, and I might take your analogy a little bit seriously.
I do run my own home office, have customers in every day, am accredited with governmental authorities as a sworn translator AND work remotely as well. Never heard of a difference in status between remote work and otherwise - could you kindly enlighten me, please?
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| Not offensive | Jul 1, 2015 |
Iza Szczypka wrote: I'll believe you only after you have tried the same phrase with other providers of the services you use, namely your dentist, your solicitor, your accountant or even your cleaning service, and came out unscathed.
I don't think it offensive, although I do my own cleaning and don't 'have' a solicitor. Perfectly reasonable to ask the dentist or accountant.
My rates and best rates happen to be the same because I always have enough work, but if another professional has time on their hands they might consider being 'flexible', nothing wrong in that.
| | | | MK2010
United States
Local time: 07:47
French to English
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| Is it the actual phrasing that has people so riled up here? | Jul 1, 2015 |
A lot of the jobs posted here are in the form of a bid. Translators are bidding on a particular job. They offer their most competitive rate in order to try to land the gig, and then the poster looks at rates/ CVs to find the best candidate for his/her needs. Those who constantly sacrifice quality in favor of the absolute lowest rates are probably delivering sub-par work that may or may not work against them at some point.
There are numerous sectors of society in which contracts are... See more A lot of the jobs posted here are in the form of a bid. Translators are bidding on a particular job. They offer their most competitive rate in order to try to land the gig, and then the poster looks at rates/ CVs to find the best candidate for his/her needs. Those who constantly sacrifice quality in favor of the absolute lowest rates are probably delivering sub-par work that may or may not work against them at some point.
There are numerous sectors of society in which contracts are landed through bids. Government contracts, architectural work, infrastructure, etc. Translation agencies compete for big tenders, such as contracts with the EU for a given number of years. In each case, the client looks for the best cost/quality ratio and awards the bid to that person / organization.
The fact that some of the job posters are bottom feeders offering ridiculously low rates is one thing, but as far as I can see, the process is pretty much the same as with any bid.
As for the flip side of things, individuals will interview schools, doctors, lawyers, etc., before they make an informed decision as to who they want to go with. Homeowners consult with various contractors before deciding who will have the privilege of building that extension they want, etc. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Looking at it another way... | Jul 1, 2015 |
... my best rate is my highest rate, the one I only dare charge the Norwegians...
| | | | | To take just one... | Jul 1, 2015 |
Iza Szczypka wrote: I'll believe you only after you have tried the same phrase with other providers of the services you use, namely your dentist, your solicitor, your accountant or even your cleaning service, and came out unscathed.
Accounting web and the UK small business forum are full of accountants weeping about clients driving down rates. Might be different elsewhere, of course.
It's a business relationship, and all parties are entitled to seek the best deal they can that meets their requirements. With regard to the phrase in question, while I naturally respect anyone's freedom to negotiate on all aspects of any job, I just happen to have found in the past that dealings with people who use those two words in that order, i.e. "best rate", are unlikely to be particularly fruitful.
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MK2010 wrote:
As for the flip side of things, individuals will interview schools, doctors, lawyers, etc., before they make an informed decision as to who they want to go with. Homeowners consult with various contractors before deciding who will have the privilege of building that extension they want, etc.
Of course, but the interviewing would be matter-of-fact and go along the lines of "what's your standard rate for this type of job?" Any negotiations may be done only after the standard terms are declared, not before.
The first-time customers should not start off with moaning "oh, I'm sooo special and my budget is sooo low, you simply must do it for me for peanuts" - which is what the 'best rate' phrase amounts to. Or, if they do moan in this way even before 'stepping inside', every serious provider will get immediately aware that there's no business to be done.
Customers deserving an occasional special discount (aka a gift of friendship) are only those who have become friends through regular cooperation. You don't throw the gifts of your friendship at every man in the street, do you?
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 07:47
Spanish to English
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| A sociolinguistic phenomenon | Jul 1, 2015 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I just happen to have found in the past that dealings with people who use those two words in that order, i.e. "best rate", are unlikely to be particularly fruitful.
Me too.
I think this an important point, and this has been my experience as well. And because apparently dozens and dozens of other translators have had similar experiences, the term has come to acquire pejorative connotations among many translators.
For the same reason, if I see an offer of work from an Indian translation agency that doesn't mention rates, i dismiss it out of hand, secure in the knowledge that, based on probabilities, it is most unlikely that any offer from such a source is worthy of my consideration.
[Edited at 2015-07-01 23:12 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 17:17
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | That is exactly the point | Jul 2, 2015 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
An individual freelancer, no matter how efficient and productive, does not have this option, especially if he or she lives in a country with an advanced economy.
All translators don't live in advanced economies where the cost of living is sky high. In fact, the cost of living varies greatly across the globe and even within countries. To take my own example, I live in India, which is generally taken to be a low cost country, but I happen to be in Mumbai, which is one of the costliest cities in the world to be in. So my cost of living is entirely different from what it would be for another of my fellow countryman living in say a different location in India, say, Indore.
The same would apply to all large countries, the cost of living in places like New York or Los Angeles or London won't be the same as that in the interior regions of the US or UK.
This is why translator rates vary greatly and it would be inane to expect that all translators across the globe work at the same rate. So what would be a peanut rate for a Norwegian translator would be a handsome golden chance for a translator located in mid-US region (developed economies both).
This is why I find all this jehad about rates pointless. The difference in rates reflects the very varied personal situations of translators, and I don't see anything wrong if agencies cherry pick the "cheapest" translators. Contrary to what is implied here, the "cheapest" translator does not necessarily provide shoddy translations, nor do these agencies fob off shoddy work done by these "cheap" translators on their innocent and unsuspecting clients. In most cases these translators are highly experienced, talented and know what they are doing. They are merely taking advantage of the fact that they are in a position to offer cheaper rates and still maintain a quality of life comparable to that of translators based in advanced economies. Is it fair to expect them to give up on this competitive advantage so that their fellow freelancers in costlier economies can prosper?
We need to be clear about these things to carry this discussion forward meaningfully. Here are a few false positives I would specifically like to highlight:
1. Translators working for cheap rates necessarily are shoddy, unprofessional, less qualified, younger translators (False: many are highly qualified, talented, experienced veterans who are able to offer low rates because their cost of living is less).
2. Agencies who pick these "cheap" translators are crooks, fly by the night operators who infest our profession and hoodwink unsuspecting clients. (False: These agencies are merely applying standard business practices of acquiring quality inputs at the cheapest rates. They manage this by picking translators who have low cost of living, and not necessarily by going for the inexperienced or the unqualified translators. And hence, the quality of the translations provided by these agencies, is not necessarily inferior to what would be possible if they had employed more costly translators living in high-cost locations in the advanced economies.)
3. Translators charge peanut rates because they don't know what they are worth, or what the market can support, and they need to be educated to wean them away from this self-destructive (and profession-destroying) practice. (False: Translators running their own businesses are not that naive and they know their markets well enough to position themselves advantageously in them, including on the rate front. Therefore, education on rates is the least important thing that they want, and people here can save their energies for something else.)
4. Translators charging low rates will soon find out that this is unsustainable and they would soon go bankrupt as they would not be able to afford technology upgradation or training, or would have to work long hours to support their families and their own needs. (False: Translators don't charge low rates by compromising on their standard of living, but by taking advantage of the lower cost of living around them. This can be a sustainable and durable strategy, and does not necessarily imply that they have to scrimp on technology, training or other inputs of their profession, nor that they have to work themselves to death to eke out a living.)
So what is the way forward? For one, translators in advanced countries can think of reducing their cost of living (which is possible only to a certain extent), they could relocate to a cheaper location, or move up the value chain.
I think most of you would prefer the third option.
[Edited at 2015-07-02 03:20 GMT]
| | | | | That mythical competition from the developing world | Jul 2, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
All translators don't live in advanced economies where the cost of living is sky high.
But most of us on here do. And most of us encounter no competition whatsoever from India and other low-cost countries. Just how many Swedish-speaking Indians are there? No, the enemy is within.
Your "false positives" argument may hold in one small part of the market, but do beware of generalising.
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| Why should translators lower their rates if they live in a country with a lower cost of living? | Jul 2, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
We need to be clear about these things to carry this discussion forward meaningfully. Here are a few false positives I would specifically like to highlight:
1. Translators working for cheap rates necessarily are shoddy, unprofessional, less qualified, younger translators (False: many are highly qualified, talented, experienced veterans who are able to offer low rates because their cost of living is less).
3. Translators charge peanut rates because they don't know what they are worth, or what the market can support, and they need to be educated to wean them away from this self-destructive (and profession-destroying) practice. (False: Translators running their own businesses are not that naive and they know their markets well enough to position themselves advantageously in them, including on the rate front.
4. Translators charging low rates will soon find out that this is unsustainable and they would soon go bankrupt as they would not be able to afford technology upgradation or training, or would have to work long hours to support their families and their own needs. (False: Translators don't charge low rates by compromising on their standard of living, but by taking advantage of the lower cost of living around them. This can be a sustainable and durable strategy, and does not necessarily imply that they have to scrimp on technology, training or other inputs of their profession, nor that they have to work themselves to death to eke out a living.)
I benefit from the so-called "simplified taxation system" available to sole proprietors (sole traders) in Russia, whereby I only pay 6% on my gross revenues.
According to your cost-of-living argument, which includes lower taxes where applicable, I might consider going below my absolute minimum of US$0.10 for certain jobs. Instead, I just ignore lower-paid projects and focus on reaching out to prospective clients who represent higher-end markets, and on building up my capacity and capabilities that such clients may expect.
I believe this approach is better than that of many Russian translators who accept work at US$0.02-0.03 per source word, since my approach provides for two resultant options:
1) Work one week and enjoy three weeks of leisure while generating the same amount, or
2) Work the same hours and earn 3 to 5 times more.
N.B. Just in case, my minimum rate, when offered, still results in a very attractive per-hour rate due to various factors, such as availability of a relevant industry-specific TM, etc.
[Edited at 2015-07-02 08:02 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 17:17
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Not so mythical | Jul 2, 2015 |
Chris S wrote:
Just how many Swedish-speaking Indians are there?
Think instead of German to English or French to English. You will find plenty of such translators in both Sweden and in a place like India.
Chris S wrote:
...the enemy is within.
I would tend to agree with this. In our profession, where each is on his own, it is futile to expect that herd behaviour is possible - and translators charging very high rates throughout the world is just that.
Instead, what we will get is, each translator will evaluate his own chances and fix his rates accordingly. It serves no end for the translator who loses out on this to blame the winner for undercutting him. That is how businesses operate.
If you find that you lose out evertime time you make price your usp, you should change your business strategy and make something else your usp, and that is exactly what translators do. When such a big fuss is kicked up about the mythical advantages that translating into your native language provides, you have a parallel situation of translators pushing a false positive to their advantage. Why shouldn't the shoe pinch when it is on the other foot also?
The take away? It is that translators running their business will use every ruse to give their business competitive advantages over others - be it price or dubious markers like "translating into your native language produces superior results", and it is futile to complain. Instead you should find ways to work around the problem.
[Edited at 2015-07-02 10:24 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 17:17
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Vladimir Pochinov wrote:
Why should translators lower their rates if they live in a country with a lower cost of living?
Obviously to gain competitive advantage.
Consider A and B, both professional translators capable of turning out the highest quality of work. A can live comfortably if he charges 5000 cents a word, while B has a cut-off of 7000 cents, below which it becomes uneconomical for him to translate. Also, let us assume that both normally charge 8000 cents per word.
If a job comes along which can offer at most 6500 cents a word, A will jump at it and will be very happy at the rate, while B will probably not even bid for it.
Would it be sensible to rile A for not charging at least 7000 for this job? Or should he be applauded for not doing it for 5000 cents?
No translator with a lower cost of living will charge less than what the market can support, or below his own minimum requirement. Between these two extremes translators have a wide leeway on their rates.
In developed economies, these two limits can be quite close, giving much less leeway on rates for translators there, and in cheaper locations, translators will have more leeway.
I won't hold this against translators in cheaper locations, they are merely enjoying a natural advantage that their location provides them.
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