| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | During hard times, would you accept a job that doesn't pay much with a tight deadline? Thread poster: Jennifer Traini (X)
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Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:48
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Image is so important | Jul 26, 2015 |
Jennifer Traini wrote:
But that's the point, I'm not an established translator! I don't think I have the expertise and experience yet
I accept that we all have to start somewhere and I know from personal experience that starting in a new business is demanding. But if you want to be treated as a professional in this industry you need to differentiate yourself from the amateurs, right from the start.
You don't want to be lumped in with the part-timers and the retirees who want to make a bit of money on the side. We've had topics started by people in both those two categories quite recently here on ProZ. They have a right to pursue translation work if want to, but they do drive down prices at the low end. If you're perceived to be one of the amateurs - and there are plenty about - you will only get offered amateur prices.
Broadcast to potential clients the signals of professionalism. Polish your CV and your profiles. Work that MA and emphasise your formal training in translation. Ruthlessly reject jobs with unrealistic deadlines. Never take on jobs with outrageously low rates. Get a web site of your own; this can be done very cheaply.
And if it's all just too much in terms of timing, then freeze everything, remove your profiles and wait until your studies are out of the way before tackling it properly.
Regards
Dan
| | | | Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:48
German to English
+ ...
| Food for thought | Jul 26, 2015 |
Hi Jennifer,
From the way you've described your financial situation, it's clear that you are in a position where turning down money, any money, seems like the wrong decision. That is a stressful situation. But I maintain that not only was declining that job a good decision, but also accepting that kind of work is always going to be counterproductive, regardless of how much you need the money.
Marketing is all about image. You have to find that sweet spot of portraying y... See more Hi Jennifer,
From the way you've described your financial situation, it's clear that you are in a position where turning down money, any money, seems like the wrong decision. That is a stressful situation. But I maintain that not only was declining that job a good decision, but also accepting that kind of work is always going to be counterproductive, regardless of how much you need the money.
Marketing is all about image. You have to find that sweet spot of portraying yourself as an established professional with appropriate qualifications and training without misrepresenting yourself. A little time and effort spent on your CV and online profiles (like the one here on ProZ) will go a long way in doing that. You are investing in yourself, and in doing so you will start attracting clients who pay acceptable rates and request acceptable deadlines.
I get that you haven't finished your MA yet, but you can still portray a professional image regardless. You could say something like "I am at the cusp of completing my MA in translation at [University of Wherever], and look forward to working with you full time soon. In the meantime, I am only in my office on [Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays from 9am until 3pm]. Although I am still in the process of completing my MA, I have been honing my skills and gaining valuable experience as a freelance translator for several return clients since [date]." You could then include a little information about your working capacity ("Depending on the subject matter and language combination, I can usually translate [2000-3000] words per day.") and your area(s) of specialisation, so that potential clients know what would be considered a reasonable request given your current situation regarding availability etc.
Given the fact that you haven't finished your MA yet and inexperience may be a concern for potential clients, it may be wise to include a few samples of your translation on your ProZ profile and direct clients to these so they can see for themselves what you're made of.
You could then take that polished CV and ProZ profile and approach loads of clients, and see who bites first. This is a bit of a numbers game, but eventually someone will respond.
A little extra love to your image will attract better clientele and set appropriate boundaries so the requests you get are more likely to fit into your availability and capabilities.
Just something to consider. Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 10:48
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| You're already better qualified than many | Jul 26, 2015 |
I see there have already been several more responses, but I'd like to address two specific points.
Jennifer Traini wrote:
I really feel like I'm missing something in my education: one has to learn how to translate efficiently and accurately and I don't think I'm learning that from my Swedish professors so I figured that a job like that would be a perfect chance to actually translate from that language. And it is really frustrating because I paid a tuition to learn how to translate, not only to improve the language.
But you're studying translation in other language pairs on your MA, aren't you? I only translate in one pair but I really don't think that I'll need any further translation training if I ever get my Spanish level high enough to work with it. Maybe others will disagree but I'd have thought that the techniques hold across pairs. I do think that we need to be taught the basics of those techniques but I suspect you already have plenty of insight into the theory.
Is your MA one of the practical ones that prepares you to be a professional translator in a world where at least 90% are freelancers? It's an aspect that some ignore. Becoming a professional business person is something that doesn't come naturally to everyone. Maybe you could tighten the purse strings a little more and spend some time learning how to run and present your business to your clients.
As for my CV and proz page, I know they're poorly written and rarely updated. I'm trying to understand how to write everything clearly but I really don't have the time. So maybe you're right and this is a wake-up call and I have to choose if venture into this or just take a break.
I suppose the above is my response to that too. I think you probably already have the expertise to present yourself as a professional now. But if you don't have the time you're better off putting it on the back burner. You're risking more than you think by presenting yourself as an amateur.
Edited to add some constructive info:
You can find loads of info here on ProZ.com to help you build a strong profile, become visible to potential clients, and tgen wow them with a great freelancer's CV (not a Europass-style one that only suits HR managers wanting to fill their salaried positions). Visit the Site Guidance centre - it's made for people like you. Attend the free webinars announced there. Maybe look for a mentor to help with the Swedish. Go through the Wiki articles - there's one about CVs. Loads to fill your time here!
Monitor the job postings by all means but reject the ones that aren't in line with your career prospects - leave them to the amateurs. There are many good clients here who rarely if ever post their jobs publicly.
[Edited at 2015-07-26 10:23 GMT]
| | | | | Dear Jennifer | Jul 26, 2015 |
I hope that you will take what I have to say as general constructive criticism and not as a personal attack.
First of all, as one of the vast minority on sites like this, may I say that I speak as someone who trained and qualified as an interpreter and translator many moons ago and as one who has taught the subjects at university. I am therefore pleased that you are doing things properly and obtaining worthwhile qualifications and not just sailing out into the world of translation o... See more I hope that you will take what I have to say as general constructive criticism and not as a personal attack.
First of all, as one of the vast minority on sites like this, may I say that I speak as someone who trained and qualified as an interpreter and translator many moons ago and as one who has taught the subjects at university. I am therefore pleased that you are doing things properly and obtaining worthwhile qualifications and not just sailing out into the world of translation on a wing and a prayer on the strength of some vague language knowledge.
I also appreciate that you need to support yourself financially during your studies. Some of the suggestions made by others with regard to ways you could earn better money than by accepting cheap translation jobs are good and should be considered. I see no need to repeat them.
Where I am less happy is about your acceptance of insultingly low rates just to get work. You need to realise that building up a good portfolio of clients who pay well and on time is not something that can happen overnight. I am rather surprised that your university or whatever it is (you don't give us any details) doesn't go some way towards helping students find work in translating. In the school I teach in, we have a sort of in-house agency enabling students to do paid translation but with the safety net of staff supervision. This is seen as stage one in a valuable networking exercise.
Bottom feeding is NOT the answer. Once you work for peanuts, you will find it very hard to inch your way out of the mire. There is a lot of mud at the bottom of the translation pit and mud sticks! It is also very hard to extract yourself entirely from the mire.
If you want to practice translating from Swedish or any other language, try finding yourself a mentor, via your teachers for preference. You could then work with this mentor to build up skills and confidence. I'm surprised your educational establishment hasn't told you this or pointed you in the right direction. I hope this is a serious establishment.
If this is impossible, try practising on texts that have already been translated and then comparing your efforts with the published end result (no cheating!).
Whatever you do, do not let yourself be lured into the morass of working for ridiculously low rates proposed by unscrupulous clients, who are aware that there will always be someone who will fall into the trap. Mostly these clients attract people without proper qualifications. You have set out on a nobler approach. Don't let yourself be dragged down.
My three cents' worth! ▲ Collapse
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| An amateur doing professional work | Jul 26, 2015 |
Jennifer Traini wrote:
Of course, this is a hard path and I knew it from the beginning but I don't think you have the right to criticize me so hard just because I worked for an agency that pays low rates. I began working for this agency when I began my MA and back then, I considered myself an amateur. As an amateur, I didn't expect to be paid much (after all, it wouldn't be fair to people who have much more experience and expertise) and that's why I accepted. I figured that it was better to get a job that helped me improve my skills in what I wanted to do than any other part-time job. Also, I don't think I'm doing much harm to my professional reputation: I don't want to be paid 0.03 per word forever but one has to start somewhere. I'm just working my way up and back then, this seemed like a good opportunity to use what I learnt.
I often draw analogies between translation and photography as professions. Both are mostly deregulated worldwide, and both have their respective shares of professionals (people who do it permanently for a living) doing sloppy, unacceptable work, as well as amateurs doing award-deserving masterpieces.
I did both. I was an amateur photographer, however using a top professional camera, and having my (industrial) photographs blown up to huge posters for trade fairs and exhibitions. A friend was getting married, and she hired professional photographers, of course. She asked me if I could take some "different" pictures of the ceremony. So I found a spot high up beside the organist, and used a long telephoto lens with a very powerful flashgun. An 'accident' in the processing lab ruined all the films taken by the pros, and the only pictures she ever had from her wedding were mine. Thank goodness I used two complete 36-shot rolls.
There is a threshold every amateur may choose to cross. After they do it, they'll have a professional attitude, even if they remain technically amateurs. From that point on, the true professionals will respect these amateurs, start treating them as peers. After all, every pro will have crossed that threshold in their lifetime.
The professional attitude includes doing it for free, like that chap who plays the piano for fun with a professional attitude and skill, yet lives on some other endeavor, and who might fill a friend's birthday party with music all night through. If it's not for free, adequate compensation should be required.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a typical average pro would charge "10" to do whatever some client wants you to do. As fresh past through that threshold, you could charge about 7, if you really can do it. As you get practice, you can gradually rise up to 10. When you master the craft, get specialized, or in any way rise above the average, you may go beyond that 10.
If you start cheap, you'll be perpetuating within yourself the idea that this is just a gig to help with the bills right now, and that you'll make a living from something else, as soon as you reach some other milestone (e.g. a degree in any other area). You'll be equating your translation work to serving tables or valet parking (I did it!) while in college.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:48
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Jennifer Traini wrote:
During hard times, would you accept a job that doesn't pay much with a tight deadline?
No. Not during hard times, nor any other times.
| | | | | only translate into your native language | Jul 26, 2015 |
My first point would be to only translate into your native language. Forgive my directness, but looking at your profile page I doubt if it is English.
Secondly, work for as many agencies as you want, or indeed can. I have 10-15 regular agencies, and they likewise have many freelancers to fall back on.
Lastly, the question of rates... I'll risk ruffling a few feathers and say that most people work for much less than they imply, and you'll rarely find them on forums becau... See more My first point would be to only translate into your native language. Forgive my directness, but looking at your profile page I doubt if it is English.
Secondly, work for as many agencies as you want, or indeed can. I have 10-15 regular agencies, and they likewise have many freelancers to fall back on.
Lastly, the question of rates... I'll risk ruffling a few feathers and say that most people work for much less than they imply, and you'll rarely find them on forums because they're, um, working. Ignore insults about 'bottom-feeding'and 'dumping', there are plenty of people failing to cometo terms with the digital age of translation. I wouldn't want to work for 0.03 per word, but I know excellent translators who do for easy repeat work, and they obviously do well out of it. But it is very low, don't be afraid to ask for more, and treat pdfs and complicated documents differently. If you get work from new agencies, try and up your rate.
As for 5500 words in 24 hours, that might have been possible but a bit of a struggle; nobody working like that can do a very good job, and if there had been any problems afterwards YOUR work would have been in the spotlight for criticism, not the deadline. So avoid such things!
Conclusion; contact agencies and offer your services, only translate into your native language, work for low rates if you really have to, and don't take on more than 3-4,000 words per 24 hours.
[Edited at 2015-07-26 15:01 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I started the same way | Jul 26, 2015 |
I started exactly the same way, I just did it while completing my BA (not MA). Back then I used to work as a waiter at a local bar, and I hated it so much that I thought I'd do anything to get out of that place.
Starting out as a translator charging very low prices seemed the best possible choice. So I worked for peanuts for a couple years, for agencies and direct clients, at any rate between $0,03 and 0,06. That was less than five years ago, not in the 30s. That's to say, I'm fami... See more I started exactly the same way, I just did it while completing my BA (not MA). Back then I used to work as a waiter at a local bar, and I hated it so much that I thought I'd do anything to get out of that place.
Starting out as a translator charging very low prices seemed the best possible choice. So I worked for peanuts for a couple years, for agencies and direct clients, at any rate between $0,03 and 0,06. That was less than five years ago, not in the 30s. That's to say, I'm familiar with the situation you're currently facing. And I'm familiar with its downsides:
1- First and foremost, you think you're getting valuable experience (what in Italy is known as "gavetta"). This is completely wrong: agencies working at that rate don't use proofreaders, and when they do, they're monkeys payed peanuts to just rush through 1,000 projects per day. So you don't get any feedback.
2 - The kind of money you can earn is still pocket money. $100 here, $50 there. You say your family spent a lot to get you an education: by working at these rates, this investment is never going to pay off.
I know these days even just a little bit of money can be a lot, especially as a student. But the reality is, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
3 - Keep on working in this situation, and you'll never have enough time to market yourself effectively (you just wrote you have no time to create a decent profile here, and that's just an example).
Here's what I'd suggest: keep working for the professional agency you mentioned. Say goodbye to this one. Hurry up with your MA, and in the meanwhile start marketing yourself as Angela suggested (@Angela: great copy!). In 6 to 8 months you should be able to start earning some real money.
Last, but not least: those who wrote to you are just trying to help. From a cynical point of view, one may say they're giving away part of their expertise for free. Like it or not, the only thing you can answer to that is 'Thank you'!
Edit: writing from my smartphone...
[Edited at 2015-07-26 15:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Jennifer Traini (X)
Italy
Local time: 11:48
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks for the advice! | Jul 26, 2015 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
You can find loads of info here on ProZ.com to help you build a strong profile, become visible to potential clients, and tgen wow them with a great freelancer's CV (not a Europass-style one that only suits HR managers wanting to fill their salaried positions). Visit the Site Guidance centre - it's made for people like you. Attend the free webinars announced there. Maybe look for a mentor to help with the Swedish. Go through the Wiki articles - there's one about CVs. Loads to fill your time here!
Monitor the job postings by all means but reject the ones that aren't in line with your career prospects - leave them to the amateurs. There are many good clients here who rarely if ever post their jobs publicly.
[Edited at 2015-07-26 10:23 GMT]
Hello again Sheila,
First of all, thanks for replying to me again. I think I'll follow your advice and I'll try to focus more on how improve my profile and CV. I didn't know ProZ.com had such info (in all honesty I never look for them before) but I'm sure I'll find there some helpful information. I realize I have to make a choice between keep going like this and try to become a professional and that it'll take a lot of time and effort to become an established translator, but I hope it's worth trying. I was never completely satisfied by my current working situation but I always thought it was something temporary but I feel like it's time to make a decision and go with it.
Thank you so much again for all the info you gave me!
| | | | Jennifer Traini (X)
Italy
Local time: 11:48
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Angela Rimmer wrote:
I get that you haven't finished your MA yet, but you can still portray a professional image regardless. You could say something like "I am at the cusp of completing my MA in translation at [University of Wherever], and look forward to working with you full time soon. In the meantime, I am only in my office on [Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays from 9am until 3pm]. Although I am still in the process of completing my MA, I have been honing my skills and gaining valuable experience as a freelance translator for several return clients since [date]." You could then include a little information about your working capacity ("Depending on the subject matter and language combination, I can usually translate [2000-3000] words per day.") and your area(s) of specialisation, so that potential clients know what would be considered a reasonable request given your current situation regarding availability etc.
Given the fact that you haven't finished your MA yet and inexperience may be a concern for potential clients, it may be wise to include a few samples of your translation on your ProZ profile and direct clients to these so they can see for themselves what you're made of.
You could then take that polished CV and ProZ profile and approach loads of clients, and see who bites first. This is a bit of a numbers game, but eventually someone will respond.
A little extra love to your image will attract better clientele and set appropriate boundaries so the requests you get are more likely to fit into your availability and capabilities.
Just something to consider. Good luck!
Hello Angela,
Thanks for all the ideas you gave me! I never thought about presenting myself in the way you suggested and I think it looks much more professional than the way I've been presenting myself so far.
Sharing a few samples of my translations would be also great so that potential clients can see straight away how I work. I usually offer to do a sample translation but I realize that for clients it's much quicker to just check my profile and see a sample there.
Thanks again!
Jennifer
| | | | Jennifer Traini (X)
Italy
Local time: 11:48
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | It's all true! | Jul 26, 2015 |
Domenico Trimboli wrote:
1- First and foremost, you think you're getting valuable experience (what in Italy is known as "gavetta"). This is completely wrong: agencies working at that rate don't use proofreaders, and when they do, they're monkeys payed peanuts to just rush through 1,000 projects per day. So you don't get any feedback.
2 - The kind of money you can earn is still pocket money. $100 here, $50 there. You say your family spent a lot to get you an education: by working at these rates, this investment is never going to pay off.
I know these days even just a little bit of money can be a lot, especially as a student. But the reality is, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
3 - Keep on working in this situation, and you'll never have enough time to market yourself effectively (you just wrote you have no time to create a decent profile here, and that's just an example).
Here's what I'd suggest: keep working for the professional agency you mentioned. Say goodbye to this one. Hurry up with your MA, and in the meanwhile start marketing yourself as Angela suggested (@Angela: great copy!). In 6 to 8 months you should be able to start earning some real money.
Last, but not least: those who wrote to you are just trying to help. From a cynical point of view, one may say they're giving away part of their expertise for free. Like it or not, the only thing you can answer to that is 'Thank you'!
Edit: writing from my smartphone...
[Edited at 2015-07-26 15:25 GMT]
Everything you said it's true. I know I could earn a lot more but back then it seemed like a good chance. I had no idea of the existence of ProZ.com and I had no idea of how much was okay to charge per word. I assumed that professional translators worked for more than 0.03 per word but then again, I didn't think I was one so it seemed okay to accept a job for such a low rate. It is really hard to keep up with everything at the moment and I really don't know how to present myself. I guess, when I accepted that job at such a low rate, I ended up in some kind of a circle where I knew I was getting paid too low but at the same time, I felt bad about turning down an offer.
Anyway, thank you for your opinion. And I'm sorry if it seemed like I was rude in some of my answers: I really am grateful for all the feedbacks but it is really hard to understand one's opinion completely in only a few lines!
| | | | | Beware unprofessional agencies | Jul 26, 2015 |
To my mind, exceptionally low rates should be a warning sign. Agencies that have the audacity to rip you off like that may also stoop to other low tricks (such as not paying based on spurious reasons).
If you haven't already, I would recommend making sure that your agreement with the agency states that you are only liable up to the limit of the translation fee for the job. You may see it as accepting low rates as part of the learning process, but once you accept a job, you can be h... See more To my mind, exceptionally low rates should be a warning sign. Agencies that have the audacity to rip you off like that may also stoop to other low tricks (such as not paying based on spurious reasons).
If you haven't already, I would recommend making sure that your agreement with the agency states that you are only liable up to the limit of the translation fee for the job. You may see it as accepting low rates as part of the learning process, but once you accept a job, you can be held responsible for your work. ▲ Collapse
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Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:48
German to English
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Don't tell agencies that you have other jobs (like the babysitting) because they will be scared that you won't answer emails on time. And whatever you do, if it's within the office hours that you tell people, MAKE SURE YOU MONITOR YOUR EMAIL and reply in a timely manner!
Now, in the tricky situation where you're knee-deep in babies and a job request comes in that might require you to start right away but you can't because, you know, babies: tell the client you're "fully booked" and ... See more Don't tell agencies that you have other jobs (like the babysitting) because they will be scared that you won't answer emails on time. And whatever you do, if it's within the office hours that you tell people, MAKE SURE YOU MONITOR YOUR EMAIL and reply in a timely manner!
Now, in the tricky situation where you're knee-deep in babies and a job request comes in that might require you to start right away but you can't because, you know, babies: tell the client you're "fully booked" and can't start until [whenever you can start] and suggest a more ideal deadline for you. You'd be surprised how flexible deadlines can be.
Either way, whether you get the job or not, always say you're "fully booked" and never that you're busy feeding mushy peas to an 18 month old. It gives the impression that you're busy translating because you're in demand and makes you look more professional. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Half an MA is still a good qualification | Jul 27, 2015 |
... especially as you are still working on the other half.
It signals 'professional approach'.
That inlcudes knowing your limitations and staying within them, so turning down the impossible Swedish job was 100% the right decision.
I might acept a small job with a tight deadline if desperate, but not a big one that would mean I had to turn down better offers while I was finishing it.
Remember, if your work is accurate and fit for purpose, then it is wo... See more ... especially as you are still working on the other half.
It signals 'professional approach'.
That inlcudes knowing your limitations and staying within them, so turning down the impossible Swedish job was 100% the right decision.
I might acept a small job with a tight deadline if desperate, but not a big one that would mean I had to turn down better offers while I was finishing it.
Remember, if your work is accurate and fit for purpose, then it is worth the same to the end user as an experienced colleague's work. If you translate a birth certificate, the minutes of a meeting, whatever, it is either good enough, and then you can charge the full fee for it, or it is not good enough, and the client is entitled to complain... and everyone wastes time over hassle and trying to sort it out. That applies, no matter how many years experience you have, from 3 months to 30 years or more.
(OK, some of the more creative texts may come in shades from just adequate to brilliant, but sometimes beginners with a fresh approach can actually do those very well under the right circumstances.)
Either way, stick with the professional agency and look for more clients with the professional approach.
I came to translating the long way - at school I wanted to read medicine, but did not get into medical school, and took a long series of jobs just to earn a living. (I had to start from rock bottom again when I moved to a new country and could not speak the language...) It took me a while to change direction, but now I specialise in medical translation some of the time.
The temporary jobs pay the bills and give you the peace of mind to concentrate on night classes in my case, or on planning where you are going next.
Best of luck! ▲ Collapse
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I accept rush assignments, but with the proviso that they cost more while offering less, in terms of quality, and the risk lies with the client, not with me.
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