| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | TM-Town link at top of Proz kudoz-based ranking searches Thread poster: Jo Macdonald
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| The best translation experts cannot be found via Nadoko | Jul 15, 2016 |
Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer wrote: writeaway wrote: Elizabeth Faracini wrote:
I agree with the sentiments expressed on this thread, and hope this problem gets resolved soon.
After the previous thread complaining about the reference to TM-Town with link at the bottom of all our profile pages ( http://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/303212-two_objections_regarding_tm_town_related_advertising.html), that reference with link was removed, without any official announcement however. It just disappeared. Imo, this is the actual reply from the powers that be. I get the feeling that Proz as it now is will disappear one day into TM-Town, which clearly favours human-assisted machine translation. When I joined Proz, it was a site for professional translators. Then it became a site with professional translators and now it's a site for absolutely anyone who wants to advertise themselves as a translator. It seems those who heavily rely on CAT tools and specialise in copy/pasting TMs and other data directly from the www and then upload it onto TM-Town will soon be the 'stars' on what used to be Proz.com. Let's not make this about CAT tools. You obviously don't like them, but others do. Just a quick pro-technology argument, and then I'll shut up. I'm currently translating a set of 15 documents for a bank. My client (an agency) also provided me with previously translated documents for reference, and a big TM, based on past translations done by: (1) translators who worked in a CAT tool, and (2) translators who worked directly in MS Word, whose translations were later aligned and fed into the TM. Anyway, since I can open all 15 docs in a single "view" in memoQ , I am able to filter on keywords on both the source and target side. I can also do the same thing while looking through the big TM, via a concordance search. And guess what? I quickly found that there is a huge amount of inconsistency across the previously translated documents. Some of the translations in the TM I was provided with are actually very good, but since some of the translators obviously didn't use a CAT tool, they are often full of inconsistencies, which is a bad thing in documents like these (sets of many nearly identical contracts, terms and conditions, etc.). Anyway, CAT tools are just that: tools. In the hands of morons, they can be dangerous, but in the hands of someone who can actually translate well to start with, they can be very handy indeed. And regarding TM-Town, sure, maybe there will be a few translators who upload garbage or material that they didn't even translate themselves, but is this really such a problem? After all, their clients will soon enough find out and stop using them. It's not much different than if they had found them via the old-fashioned way (i.e. via their Proz profile), only to find out that they were crap when receiving the first ‘translation’. Michael
This is about CAT-tools being used to make Nadoko possible and invite prospective clients to use that feature, currently in the top left corner of the translator search results page as Jo said:
"Alternative: Post this search as a job
New Search Option: Get matched to the best experts for your job with Nakōdo"
How so?
The Deshi software works with TM's, on- or offline. TM's are created with the help of CAT tools.
Target texts can possibly be created by using Google Translate - how the text is translated isn't really important to Deshi. So, Deshi could have just used source texts/segments (instead of TM's) to count and log the occurrence of words (it seems to be just words that are logged) in those source texts. Or maybe there is actually an algorithm at work? Anyway, I read somewhere that it's all based on source segments in TM's, not target segments. Translation quality doesn't figure in this; how could it?
Then the Nadoko engine will try to match these words with words in prospective clients' texts that they need to have translated.
The invitation to use Nadoko clearly states that this is the way to "get matched to the best experts for your job" (see above).
So it implies that the best experts are those who have this Nadoko search enabled via their TM-Town profile.
So, if not all the best experts have yet submitted to the Nadoko search and if they cannot yet all be found on TM-Town, are we expected to do just that because that's what the best experts do?
I don't submit to the main implication that the best experts can now or will in the future be found via the Nadoko search.
I also am very concerned about how the texts/TM's are assembled by translators that Deshi analyzes (on- or offline analysis); Deshi doesn't have any control over it.
And also, if translation quality isn't something that Deshi can ascertain through its analysis, then Nadoko can't do this either, which makes the statement about the best experts very questionable.
And it's exactly that feature (the Nadoko search) that is supposed to provide the best experts - that's what it says. It doesn't say that this is a feature that some translators have chosen, and that clients should instead look at translators' profile pages on Proz.com since Nadoko results say nothing about translation quality at all, no matter how long the translator claims to have been working in this business.
I understand why many colleagues are upset when it's clear that this new feature might drive new clients (who have no idea what Nadoko results really mean) away from them or, worse, simply makes it possible that clients simply ignore their Proz.com profiles.
Although, if I were a prospective client, I would be wondering why (in most instances) the top people on the Proz.com translator search results page don't show up via the Nadoko search.
And I for one will not join the Nadoko crowd in the near future because there are way too many concerns I have with regard to best practices to put it mildly.
Just a few of my thoughts.
[Edited at 2016-07-15 22:32 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer 
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:57
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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| Let me make an analogy, which I hope will dissuade a few people from Proxiting in a mad rush. | Jul 15, 2016 |
There is only one operating system in the world today that offers many people everything they need to do their work properly. Yes, I know, there are a few others (sorry Apple and Linux), but for the sake of my argument, let's assume there is only one: Microsoft's Windows. Imagine, then, that Microsoft's board made a single stupid decision (not very hard, is it?). It doesn't really matter what it was, but whatever it was, a number of people who needed to use a Windows computer for their daily wor... See more There is only one operating system in the world today that offers many people everything they need to do their work properly. Yes, I know, there are a few others (sorry Apple and Linux), but for the sake of my argument, let's assume there is only one: Microsoft's Windows. Imagine, then, that Microsoft's board made a single stupid decision (not very hard, is it?). It doesn't really matter what it was, but whatever it was, a number of people who needed to use a Windows computer for their daily work, suddenly decided to ditch Windows altogether because of that one stupid thing its management did. Pretty crazy decision, huh?
OK, back in our little world of translation, who do you think MS Windows represents? You guessed it: Proz.com.
Now, Proz.com might not be perfect, but (1) it is actually very cheap for what you get for your money, and (2) it doesn't really have any competition.
Michael ▲ Collapse
| | | | Diana Coada (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:57
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Sorry, Michael | Jul 15, 2016 |
Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer wrote:
There is only one operating system in the world today that offers many people everything they need to do their work properly. Yes, I know, there are a few others (sorry Apple and Linux), but for the sake of my argument, let's assume there is only one: Microsoft's Windows. Imagine, then, that Microsoft's board made a single stupid decision (not very hard, is it?). It doesn't really matter what it was, but whatever it was, a number of people who needed to use a Windows computer for their daily work, suddenly decided to ditch Windows altogether because of that one stupid thing its management did. Pretty crazy decision, huh?
OK, back in our little world of translation, who do you think MS Windows represents? You guessed it: Proz.com.
Michael
But:
1. Windows does not publish links to the Apple website and doesn't tell its customers to use Apple products
2. I do not publish links on my website to other colleagues' websites.
| | | | | Not entirely true | Jul 15, 2016 |
Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer wrote:
There is only one operating system in the world today that offers many people everything they need to do their work properly. Yes, I know, there are a few others (sorry Apple and Linux), but for the sake of my argument, let's assume there is only one: Microsoft's Windows. Imagine, then, that Microsoft's board made a single stupid decision (not very hard, is it?). It doesn't really matter what it was, but whatever it was, a number of people who needed to use a Windows computer for their daily work, suddenly decided to ditch Windows altogether because of that one stupid thing its management did. Pretty crazy decision, huh?
OK, back in our little world of translation, who do you think MS Windows represents? You guessed it: Proz.com.
Now, Proz.com might not be perfect, but (1) it is actually very cheap for what you get for your money, and (2) it doesn't really have any competition.
Michael
Michael, some truth to your analogy, but there are actually plenty of competitors to Proz if you're just looking at business value: translation associations. I currently pay for three memberships: memberships to Proz, ATA, and NETA (my local translation association). The forum and invoicing tools Proz offers are great, but probably not necessary (I could just invoice with Paypal or using my own templates and post for free on the forums), so what really makes Proz valuable in terms of business is that it has consistently paid for itself in new clients. If at some point in the future Proz's changes mean that I'm not getting any return on investment, I could use the money saved to sign up for another translation association (such as ITI).
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:57
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| we're still in the honeymoon stage | Jul 15, 2016 |
Preston Decker wrote: Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer wrote:
There is only one operating system in the world today that offers many people everything they need to do their work properly. Yes, I know, there are a few others (sorry Apple and Linux), but for the sake of my argument, let's assume there is only one: Microsoft's Windows. Imagine, then, that Microsoft's board made a single stupid decision (not very hard, is it?). It doesn't really matter what it was, but whatever it was, a number of people who needed to use a Windows computer for their daily work, suddenly decided to ditch Windows altogether because of that one stupid thing its management did. Pretty crazy decision, huh?
OK, back in our little world of translation, who do you think MS Windows represents? You guessed it: Proz.com.
Now, Proz.com might not be perfect, but (1) it is actually very cheap for what you get for your money, and (2) it doesn't really have any competition.
Michael Michael, some truth to your analogy, but there are actually plenty of competitors to Proz if you're just looking at business value: translation associations. I currently pay for three memberships: memberships to Proz, ATA, and NETA (my local translation association). The forum and invoicing tools Proz offers are great, but probably not necessary (I could just invoice with Paypal or using my own templates and post for free on the forums), so what really makes Proz valuable in terms of business is that it has consistently paid for itself in new clients. If at some point in the future Proz's changes mean that I'm not getting any return on investment, I could use the money saved to sign up for another translation association (such as ITI).
Fair enough. I agree that if new clients stop finding me via Proz, it would lose some of its appeal. However, I really don't see that happening anytime soon. And if it ever does, well then I can worry about it then. No need to panic yet. The whole TM-Town thing is brand new and bound to undergo tons of changes as the marriage matures.
Michael
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:57
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer wrote:
..what he said above...
Too late. I'm already on my way out the door and looking elsewhere. I'll have less of a presence here (which might or might not disappoint).
I'm still answering the occasional Kudoz question, out of interest, but Kudoz hardly matters any more.
The question is: as a skilled translator can you survive and prosper without Proz, or can Proz survive and prosper without its best, most skilful members?
[Edited at 2016-07-16 09:11 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:57
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| xxxTom in London | Jul 16, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote: Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer wrote:
..what he said above... Too late. I'm already on my way out the door and looking elsewhere. I'll have less of a presence here (which might or might not disappoint). I'm still answering the occasional Kudoz question, out of interest, but Kudoz hardly matters any more. The question is: as a skilled translator can you survive and prosper without Proz, or can Proz survive and prosper without its best, most skilful members? [Edited at 2016-07-16 09:11 GMT]
Oh well. It would be a shame to see you go completely, as I enjoy your posts, even if I don't always agree with you. Regarding another potential work-finding platform, you might want to have a look at LinkedIn's new "ProFinder", once it hits the UK/Europe. Interesting article @ https://slator.com/technology/linkedin-serious-running-freelance-translation-marketplace/
Michael
| | | | | Some honeymoon! | Jul 16, 2016 |
Some honeymoon, Michael!
Such a disputatious honeymoon doesn't bode a very happy marriage.
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Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 02:57
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The idea of this post was to bring what is imo a potentially damaging situation for both Proz and its paying members to the attention of the Proz admin, nothing else.
I will be very sorry to see any qualified colleague go, and while you may well say it's none of my business, I would humbly ask anyone thinking of leaving to stay. Imo it's our support of Proz as paying members and kudoz contributors that helps makes this site the great resource it is. I for one will continue to renew... See more The idea of this post was to bring what is imo a potentially damaging situation for both Proz and its paying members to the attention of the Proz admin, nothing else.
I will be very sorry to see any qualified colleague go, and while you may well say it's none of my business, I would humbly ask anyone thinking of leaving to stay. Imo it's our support of Proz as paying members and kudoz contributors that helps makes this site the great resource it is. I for one will continue to renew my membership and remain hopeful that Henry will soon address this issue. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 02:57
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Diana Coada wrote: Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer wrote:
There is only one operating system in the world today that offers many people everything they need to do their work properly. Yes, I know, there are a few others (sorry Apple and Linux), but for the sake of my argument, let's assume there is only one: Microsoft's Windows. Imagine, then, that Microsoft's board made a single stupid decision (not very hard, is it?). It doesn't really matter what it was, but whatever it was, a number of people who needed to use a Windows computer for their daily work, suddenly decided to ditch Windows altogether because of that one stupid thing its management did. Pretty crazy decision, huh?
OK, back in our little world of translation, who do you think MS Windows represents? You guessed it: Proz.com.
Michael But: 1. Windows does not publish links to the Apple website and doesn't tell its customers to use Apple products
2. I do not publish links on my website to other colleagues' websites.
| | | | | TO Proz.com managers: Please remove the links to my competitors in my profile page | Jul 16, 2016 |
If I open my profile while logged out I can see a link saying; other professionals in French to Italian and English to Italian
Proz.com, please, this is my business, I really do not think that reporting names of my competitors, (yes they are competitors) in my own paid profile page is a fair commercial practice.
I'd really prefer to pay a even triple membership fee BUT NOT HAVING LINKS TO COMPETITORS IN MY OWN PROFILE PAGE.
I'd appreciate a kind reply, ... See more If I open my profile while logged out I can see a link saying; other professionals in French to Italian and English to Italian
Proz.com, please, this is my business, I really do not think that reporting names of my competitors, (yes they are competitors) in my own paid profile page is a fair commercial practice.
I'd really prefer to pay a even triple membership fee BUT NOT HAVING LINKS TO COMPETITORS IN MY OWN PROFILE PAGE.
I'd appreciate a kind reply, please... many thanks
[Edited at 2016-07-16 11:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Jo Macdonald wrote:
Imo it's our support of Proz as paying members and kudoz contributors that helps makes this site the great resource it is.
We are the product of ProZ, and some of us - not me (I'm Dutch) - seem to be happy to pay for the privilege.
Cheers,
Hans (from the Age of Aquarius)
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Jo Macdonald wrote:
The idea of this post was to bring what is imo a potentially damaging situation for both Proz and its paying members to the attention of the Proz admin, nothing else.
I will be very sorry to see any qualified colleague go, and while you may well say it's none of my business, I would humbly ask anyone thinking of leaving to stay. Imo it's our support of Proz as paying members and kudoz contributors that helps makes this site the great resource it is. I for one will continue to renew my membership and remain hopeful that Henry will soon address this issue.
Same toughts JO.
| | | | Susan Welsh
United States
Local time: 20:57
Russian to English
+ ...
Angie Garbarino wrote:
If I open my profile while logged out I can see a link saying; other professionals in French to Italian and English to Italian
That's funny, I don't see such a link on my profile.
| | | | | You have to log out to see it | Jul 16, 2016 |
Susan Welsh wrote: Angie Garbarino wrote:
If I open my profile while logged out I can see a link saying; other professionals in French to Italian and English to Italian
That's funny, I don't see such a link on my profile.
At the bottom of your profile page:
More translators and interpreters: Russian to English - German to English More language pairs
At least this link keeps visitors/potential clients on Proz and doesn't send them off to a different site.
Naturally the P people are listed first but hey, customer-loyalty is supposed to reap rewards.
[Edited at 2016-07-16 12:06 GMT]
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » TM-Town link at top of Proz kudoz-based ranking searches | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
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