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試譯失敗經歷
Thread poster: Kenneth Woo
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
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历史时代 Apr 20, 2014

ziptip wrote:

向大家请教一下,walls of convict-carved stone 应该怎样翻译?流放犯人雕砌的石墙?


In 1834 a consortium of Hobart Town’s business leaders was formed with the aim of establishing a permanent theatre for the rapidly expanding colony. The theatre was designed by Peter Degraves, founder of Cascade, Australia’s oldest brewery, and has walls of convict-carved stone.

这段话的文脉在于:...1834...colony...oldest...convict...
整段话的意义在于强调皇家剧场的悠久历史:早在澳洲还是个流放囚犯的殖民地的时代,还没形成正常社会形式之前,在这个遥远的早期时代,剧场就建成了。

...剧场外墙的石块由流放囚犯采切,建筑设计师为澳洲第一酿酒商...


 
Fargoer
Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 00:24
English to Chinese
先民 Apr 20, 2014

ziptip wrote:

向大家请教一下,walls of convict-carved stone 应该怎样翻译?流放犯人雕砌的石墙?

感觉像是一个历史遗迹,在这个网页的介绍中还有一句提到http://www.theatreroyal.com.au/about/history,但没有在网上找到对应的翻译。用google图片搜索,居然出现的第一张是长城……

谢谢:)


澳大利亚最早的移民是英国遣送来的囚徒,其中许多是因为宗教或政治原因受迫害、被囚禁的。他们是澳洲除土著民族之外最早的先民。这在澳大利亚是尽人皆知的历史事实。没有人因为是囚徒的后人而感到耻辱,相反他们为先民们通过劳动和汗水摆脱枷锁重获自由并建立起一个美丽的国家而自豪。

我觉得,可以考虑译为“被流放先民雕刻的石墙”。

[Edited at 2014-04-20 06:47 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-04-20 06:59 GMT]


 
Fargoer
Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 00:24
English to Chinese
眼见为实 Apr 20, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:
...剧场外墙的石块由流放囚犯采切,


囚徒只是采切石块,还是在石块上也雕有纹饰,单从文字上较难判断。这也是对非母语人士比较难分辨的地方。只有对该建筑的历史有较深入了解,或见过实物的人有发言权。

可否分享您的所见或所闻?


 
Yan Yuliang
Yan Yuliang  Identity Verified
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+ ...
同意 Apr 20, 2014

不论么时候,读到“迷思”这个词语的时候,我都会觉得很困惑。
在我的脑海里,迷思=迷失的思想。和神话是半点关系也没有。

Fargoer wrote:

myth 一词正确的译文就是“神话”。几乎所有的英汉词典都是这样翻译的。中文原来没有“神话”一词,它是为译“myth”这个英文词而创造的,所以承载了英文原词的全部意涵。大致说有两个基本的意思,一是神话故事,如 “阿契里斯之踵”是古希腊神话,“嫦娥奔月”是中国古代神话。二是似是而非的观念,大家都认为是真的,其实不是真的。例如,“平型关大捷打破了日军不可战胜的神话”,这里的“神话”就是第二种意义上的神话。

但是后来台湾有人提出用“迷思”来译“myth”,一时引来学界齐声赞扬,认为这个译法音义兼得,实属难得的佳译。于是在一定的圈子里流行起来。后来台湾教育部出版的英汉词典采用了这种译法。此举实为行政干预语文的不成功先例。后来这个词传入大陆,变得十分流行。但是意义有了很大的不同。由于先有“神话”的成译,大家已经约定俗成。要人们接受一种与原译大相径庭的新译,并非易事。况且“迷思”一词虽有音近的优点,但词义却容易被误解,很多人会望文生义地理解为“走入迷途的思想”、“迷信思想”等等。

现实中发生的情况正是这样。Google 一下就知道,“迷思”一词返回的大量用例中,百分之九十九都是误用了的,绝大部分都是“误区”、“谬见”、“广被接受的错误观念”等意思。还有不少呼吁大家注意“迷思”一词被误用的文章。这些文章多半是台湾人写的,因为只有少数的台湾人知道这个词是“myth”的汉译。也就是说,大部分人在使用“迷思”一词时,根本不知道它与“myth”有任何关系。其实语言就死约定俗成。多数人都误用了,误用也就成了正解。

有鉴于此,我认为“神话”的译法虽差强人意,但总算可以交差。而“迷思”的译法恐怕很难被正确理解,尤其是在中国大陆。


[Edited at 2014-04-20 05:57 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:24
Chinese to English
语言、网络、背景知识 Apr 20, 2014

Fargoer wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:
...剧场外墙的石块由流放囚犯采切,


囚徒只是采切石块,还是在石块上也雕有纹饰,单从文字上较难判断。这也是对非母语人士比较难分辨的地方。只有对该建筑的历史有较深入了解,或见过实物的人有发言权。

可否分享您的所见或所闻?


语言方面:
一、雕刻的英文是carving,carved stone一般是平齐的石块。
二、本段话的文脉:以上已经说过,整段话都在强调历史长,没有其他内容。
三、上下文没有再提到 carving、sculpture、relief等相关话题。

网络方面:
图像搜索没有什么雕刻。剧场的网站上没有相关图像,也没有再提carving。

背景知识:
囚犯能做雕刻工作吗?囚犯都是干嘛的?劳动!石场开采是很典型的劳改工作。

这就是阅读吧!阅读是用脑袋的,不是用词典的!


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:24
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+ ...
Expectations Too High :D Apr 20, 2014



Theatre Royal, Hobart


 
Fargoer
Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 00:24
English to Chinese
谢谢赐教! Apr 20, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

Fargoer wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:
...剧场外墙的石块由流放囚犯采切,


囚徒只是采切石块,还是在石块上也雕有纹饰,单从文字上较难判断。这也是对非母语人士比较难分辨的地方。只有对该建筑的历史有较深入了解,或见过实物的人有发言权。

可否分享您的所见或所闻?


语言方面:
一、雕刻的英文是carving,carved stone一般是平齐的石块。
二、本段话的文脉:以上已经说过,整段话都在强调历史长,没有其他内容。
三、上下文没有再提到 carving、sculpture、relief等相关话题。

网络方面:
图像搜索没有什么雕刻。剧场的网站上没有相关图像,也没有再提carving。

背景知识:
囚犯能做雕刻工作吗?囚犯都是干嘛的?劳动!石场开采是很典型的劳改工作。




您说的语言方面的依据有道理。我也知道雕刻一般是用carving。只是不敢肯定 carved stone 有没有可能是雕有纹饰的石材。这一点我相信您的语感。所以才向您请教。但仅从语言上判断,还是没有绝对的把握。语言毕竟是灵活多变的。您自己也搜索图片,说明还是需要实物证据。

图片搜索不到雕刻,判断为没有,可能是对的。但仍然不敢说有十分的把握。

至于您说囚犯不能做雕刻,恐怕有失武断。

我是在网上看到一些囚犯的石雕作品,才对 Royal theatre 的石墙感到不敢确定,特意请教您的。

例如下面视频中的石桥。不仅由囚犯建造,而且嵌有囚犯(Daniel Herbert) 创作的石雕。据说他甚至把自己妻子的形象也雕上去了。:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHwc5AC_SXw




[Edited at 2014-04-22 02:00 GMT]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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Theatre Royal, Hobart Apr 20, 2014

I didn't mean to snub it, but it is an old theatre built in the days when Australia was still a bunch of penal colonies of Britain's.

http://melbourneblogger.blogspot.com/2010/06/australias-best-and-oldest-theatres.html






[Edited at 2014-04-20 19:52 GMT]


 
David Lin
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也不是完全没可能 Apr 20, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

Fargoer wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:
...剧场外墙的石块由流放囚犯采切,


囚徒只是采切石块,还是在石块上也雕有纹饰,单从文字上较难判断。这也是对非母语人士比较难分辨的地方。只有对该建筑的历史有较深入了解,或见过实物的人有发言权。

可否分享您的所见或所闻?


语言方面:
一、雕刻的英文是carving,carved stone一般是平齐的石块。
二、本段话的文脉:以上已经说过,整段话都在强调历史长,没有其他内容。
三、上下文没有再提到 carving、sculpture、relief等相关话题。

网络方面:
图像搜索没有什么雕刻。剧场的网站上没有相关图像,也没有再提carving。

背景知识:
囚犯能做雕刻工作吗?囚犯都是干嘛的?劳动!石场开采是很典型的劳改工作。

这就是阅读吧!阅读是用脑袋的,不是用词典的!


Phil,

囚犯中间可能有石雕匠。其中一个是 Daniel Herbert/Hobart。所以剧场设计者土木工程师 Peter Degraves 找囚犯做建筑工作,并负责一些雕刻装饰,也不是一件完全没可能发生的事。参阅这个黑白短片链结。

Bridge Carved By Convict, In Australia
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/bridge-carved-by-convict-in-australia

"Various shots of stone bridge across river in Tasmania, the bridge is called Roth Bridge and on it are seen a lot of carvings, after research it was found that they were done by a convict (Daniel Herbert / Hobart) many years ago and he was given a pardon for doing them. "

关于剧场设计者土木工程师 Peter Degraves 的纪录:
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/degraves-peter-1973

关于囚犯 Daniel Herbert, a stonemason 负责在 Hobart 建桥及其上的雕刻及其他政府工程,因成绩突出获缩短刑期 :
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/herbert-daniel-12979

Australia's oldest theatre, the Theatre Royal 文稿里提到 convict-carved sandstone 砂岩
http://www.heritageaustralia.com.au/pdfs/Heritage0909_OH%20Hobart%20Theatre.pdf

用砂岩做建筑材料在那个年代很流行。既然历史记载囚犯中有石雕匠,由他们负责一些雕刻装饰,个人觉得也不是没有可能。

总结以上信息,我们大概可以获得一个结论,就是 Hobart 的 Theatre Royal 是由囚犯盖(劳动工作)和装饰的(包括其中的雕刻)= the theatre was carved by convicts or convict-carved。 这是一个澳洲英语风味很重的一个表达方式。

你的建议其实很不错,非常接近原文的意思。可以考虑在后面加上 ‘雕刻装饰’ 就完美了,即 ”剧场外墙的石块由流放囚犯采切‘和雕刻装饰’“。

供讨论和参考。


 
wherestip
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IMO Apr 20, 2014



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_carving

The term Stone carving is one of the processes which may be used by an artist when creating a sculpture. The term also refers to the activity of masons in dressing stone blocks for use in architecture, building or civil engineering. It is also a phrase used by archaeologists, historians, and anthropologists to describe the activity involved in making some types of petroglyphs.



Phil's interpretation is correct.


 
David Lin
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Agreed (as mentioned earlier) due to sandstone as material for the building Apr 20, 2014

wherestip wrote:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_carving

The term Stone carving is one of the processes which may be used by an artist when creating a sculpture. The term also refers to the activity of masons in dressing stone blocks for use in architecture, building or civil engineering. It is also a phrase used by archaeologists, historians, and anthropologists to describe the activity involved in making some types of petroglyphs.



Phil's interpretation is correct.


 
wherestip
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Think the Great Pyramids from Egypt Apr 20, 2014

David,

对的。 They used slave labor to build the Great Pyramids, including masons who had to shape the building blocks.


 
David Lin
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好像与历史记载及事实方面有出入 Apr 20, 2014

Fargoer wrote:

澳大利亚最早的移民是英国遣送来的囚徒,其中许多是因为宗教或政治原因受迫害、被囚禁的。他们是澳洲除土著民族之外最早的先民。



根据澳洲自己和英国的历史记载,这些囚犯大都是被英国法院判罪外放到澳洲坐牢。当时英国监牢不足,于是利用澳洲新开发的殖民地来当监牢。 与你的理解 ”因为宗教或政治原因受迫害“ 好像有一点出入。参阅下面链结。

”A number of European explorers sailed the coast of Australia, then known as New Holland, in the 17th century. However it wasn’t until 1770 that Captain James Cook chartered the east coast and claimed it for Britain. The new outpost was put to use as a penal colony and on 26 January 1788, the First Fleet of 11 ships carrying 1,500 people – half of them convicts – arrived in Sydney Harbour. Until penal transportation ended in 1868, 160,000 men and women came to Australia as convicts.“

http://www.australia.com/about/culture-history/history.aspx

”During the late 18th and 19th centuries, large numbers of convicts were transported to the various Australian penal colonies by the British government. One of the primary reasons for the British settlement of Australia was the establishment of a penal colony to alleviate pressure on their overburdened correctional facilities. Over the 80 years more than 165,000 convicts were transported to Australia。“

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convicts_in_Australia

[Edited at 2014-04-20 13:41 GMT]


 
Alan Wang
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why bother? Apr 20, 2014

What you are talking about may be the 6 page Translator Agreement stating your responsibilities and what so forth, included in it is also a Disclaimer Agreement and even an Exhibit B - Translation Uncertainty Report. Maybe I can live with all these.

But do you know they also have an Application Form expecting you to fill up? After passing the test and saying you have scored top of the list, they stated in the first paragraph of the Application Form issued to you that they want you
... See more
What you are talking about may be the 6 page Translator Agreement stating your responsibilities and what so forth, included in it is also a Disclaimer Agreement and even an Exhibit B - Translation Uncertainty Report. Maybe I can live with all these.

But do you know they also have an Application Form expecting you to fill up? After passing the test and saying you have scored top of the list, they stated in the first paragraph of the Application Form issued to you that they want you to resend your resume, maybe suspecting that you already have an updated one. It’s a four-page Form, with a lot of tables to be filled up with almost your entire life history. Perhaps they want to use it to cross check with your resume to see if there are discrepancies?

That is not all. The problem is that by the time you’ve read the first paragraph on the first page of the Translator Agreement, you’ve already got a pessimistic idea about getting any job any time soon.
Article 1, Section a:
“Note that the Company cannot guarantee the assignment of work to you, and you are under no obligation to accept work from us.”

wherestip wrote:
My advice is look again at what they sent you. From my limited dealings with translation agencies, most of the time they just want you to understand their do's and don'ts, and obtain your agreement of compliance with your signature. They don't really care about your "past glories". Your past experience in the translation business should be reflected in your resume anyway, which normally is one of the 1st things they ask for.


[Edited at 2014-04-19 18:02 GMT]
Collapse


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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Nothing out of the norm Apr 20, 2014

Alan Wang wrote:

What you are talking about may be the 6 page Translator Agreement stating your responsibilities and what so forth, included in it is also a Disclaimer Agreement and even an Exhibit B - Translation Uncertainty Report. Maybe I can live with all these.

But do you know they also have an Application Form expecting you to fill up? After passing the test and saying you have scored top of the list, they stated in the first paragraph of the Application Form issued to you that they want you to resend your resume, maybe suspecting that you already have an updated one. It’s a four-page Form, with a lot of tables to be filled up with almost your entire life history. Perhaps they want to use it to cross check with your resume to see if there are discrepancies?

That is not all. The problem is that by the time you’ve read the first paragraph on the first page of the Translator Agreement, you’ve already got a pessimistic idea about getting any job any time soon.
Article 1, Section a:
“Note that the Company cannot guarantee the assignment of work to you, and you are under no obligation to accept work from us.”



Alan,

I haven't seen what they sent you. But from your description, they are just going through their standard HR hiring procedures. That last thing that you are so objectionable to is just some legal verbiage to cover their own ass so you don't take them to court when things don't go as expected. It's boilerplate disclaimer.

Not everyone is out to get you, y'know.


[Edited at 2014-04-20 17:43 GMT]


 
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