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"这一次大陆又输了"
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LoyalTrans
LoyalTrans
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绿和于 Sep 30, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:

LoyalTrans wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:

岂止于大 is rhythmically lovely. 岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth. It's about on a par with "bigger than bigger."


"岂止于大"和“岂止更大”的优劣在我看来是一目了然的事——虽然后者不一定像Phil说的那么不堪——但前者怎么又跟语法扯上了?

唐诗宋词里多少优美的句子是“不合语法”的? “春风又绿江南岸", 我不知道如果要"合乎语法”应该怎么说。翻译如果能翻到这个境界才是牛人。

个人感觉,Bigger than bigger透出一股浓厚的土豪气息,说实话,真的觉得中文译文要比原文好。


无外乎简单的主谓宾结构。



绿不是动词。做动词用的,恐怕就这一个孤例。

如果能容忍绿,不知道为什么看不得虚词“于”。汉语只要看得顺眼,读得通顺就行,管他什么语法不语法的。


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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Chinese vs. English Sep 30, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

No, these are exactly the wrong points.

First, the rhetorical question thing. It's a massive error to assume that the rhetorical question form in Chinese works anything like the rhetorical question form in English. In English, they are rare, rare beasts. They are super-marked, and using them with anything but the lightest touch makes you sound hectoring and self-important. I've noticed myself using them with my kids a lot, and I deliberately try to cut it out. They can easily end up feeling coercive, rather than persuasive.

That's much less the case in Chinese, both classical and modern. Mikey's 7, in second grade at a Chinese elementary, and he is being taught to use rhetorical questions in his compositions already. That would be insane in English. My feeling in Chinese is that they are much more of an assertion of sincerity (kinda like the English "I really think that..."); whereas in English they can sound insincere.

Conclusion: I would never equate the two unless I were doing a back translation where the aim is to preserve the form exactly.



Phil,

I don't think we're talking about the same type of rhetorical questions. I'm talking about the innocuous garden variety that's just for effect, such as "Aren't you glad you use Dial?", "Got milk?", "Where's the beef?", "Do you believe in magic?", "Can you hear me now?", "Is it in you?", "Where do you want to go today?", "Do you ... Yahoo?". I think these advertising slogans are on par with "岂止于大?", not at all the type that cut people down that I believe you're referring to.

As for the sarcastic or mean type of rhetorical questions, I think Chinese has its fair share of doozies too. For example “你找死啊?”,“你吃饱了撑的没事干哪?”,“你闲的慌啊?”,“你有良心吗?”, “你要脸吗?!”, “你抢孝帽子哪?”,“岂非自讨没趣?”,“岂不是自欺欺人?”。

But I have to think about it. Maybe you're right about typical Chinese rhetoric being more subdued, or kinder and gentler. I admit I never thought of it that way.


[Edited at 2014-09-30 19:57 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
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“岂止于大”="不仅仅大",但是它真的暗含了“更大”的意思? Sep 30, 2014

LoyalTrans wrote:

“岂止于大”,在我理解就是不仅仅大,这不已经暗含了“更大”的意思?bigger难道非要翻译成“较大”、“更大”才算对?也许一般文件的翻译,翻成“更大”更准确,不过广告语这么翻,我看不出有什么要指摘的。


OK. 让我把它掰开揉碎地说说,看看它到底隐含了更大的意思没有。

如果把上一个版本的尺码假定为1,1就是大,大就是一个优点;那么新的版本“岂止于大”就表示新版本的尺寸还是1,1本身就是大,就是说这一个优点被保存了下来。 在新版本中我们保持了它的这个“大”的优点, 也就是说尺寸还是1(不是1.1或者2),但是没有止于保留尺寸=1这个优点上, 还加了一些别的优点。

忽略原文的比较级,讨论汉语“大”跟“更大”是否为同一个意思,像是无源之水,无本之木。


[Edited at 2014-09-30 04:34 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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Totally agree Sep 30, 2014

QHE wrote:

JYuan 已经反复写得很清楚:谈论的这个 “大”是跟在“岂止于”后面的“大”。
而 “岂止于大”理应是英文原文“bigger than bigger” (很明显这是比较级) 相对应的中文译文(中文是译文!)。 根据这个语境判断, 这里 “大”字是具有比较级的形容词。 脱离了原文和语境,理论中文 “大”字的 一词多性,追究 “岂止于”在古文中的出现次数,有一點是本末倒置了。

APPLE “应该”选择什么广告词语及译文是公司自己的事,IMO, 这并不是 这里讨论 的实质。 译者发挥中文修辞, 借鉴文言文不是不好;但是 前提是要尊重原文, 是要使用 目标语言正确 传达原文。因为这是翻译, 不是原创,也不只是自 我感觉的表述。

尤其是,“前提是要尊重原文,是要使用目标语言正确传达原文。因为这是翻译,不是原创,也不只是自我感觉的表述”。


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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应以理服人 Sep 30, 2014

LoyalTrans wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:

岂止于大 is rhythmically lovely. 岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth. It's about on a par with "bigger than bigger."


"岂止于大"和“岂止更大”的优劣在我看来是一目了然的事——虽然后者不一定像Phil说的那么不堪——但前者怎么又跟语法扯上了?

唐诗宋词里多少优美的句子是“不合语法”的? “春风又绿江南岸", 我不知道如果要"合乎语法”应该怎么说。翻译如果能翻到这个境界才是牛人。

个人感觉,Bigger than bigger透出一股浓厚的土豪气息,说实话,真的觉得中文译文要比原文好。

我认为,我们讨论问题时应以理服人。不摆事实讲道理而光下结论,那是无济于事的。至于“岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth”之类的话,则更是无用。那不就与《这一次大陆又输了》的作者所说的话一样了吗?

既然是翻译,就得尊重原文,就得讲语法。

此外,先不说"岂止于大"是不是比原文好,翻译的任务并非是“要比原文好”。把赵本山说的话翻译成象是钱钟书说出来的话,那就过分了。


 
Loise
Loise
France
Local time: 01:02
French to Chinese
+ ...
相當同意 Sep 30, 2014

Phil,
我非常同意你的論點。你說得太好了!我覺得你對豈止於大的back translation的翻譯也很精彩。我很同意,在不同的語言裡,直述句跟反問句給人的感覺不一定都相同,有時根據文化差異做適當的調整是必要的。

我經常對照法文跟英文之間的翻譯,我發現法文的翻譯並不遵循某些中文譯者那種非常教條性的譯法。
例如,我曾經看過在電影裡的驚嘆句Oh my God!
... See more
Phil,
我非常同意你的論點。你說得太好了!我覺得你對豈止於大的back translation的翻譯也很精彩。我很同意,在不同的語言裡,直述句跟反問句給人的感覺不一定都相同,有時根據文化差異做適當的調整是必要的。

我經常對照法文跟英文之間的翻譯,我發現法文的翻譯並不遵循某些中文譯者那種非常教條性的譯法。
例如,我曾經看過在電影裡的驚嘆句Oh my God!的英文被翻譯成 incroyable!(back translation 為 incredible)而不是 Oh, mon Dieu(Oh my God),因為即使法文裡有這樣的說法,它的意思跟英文不一樣,而且在表達驚訝時,法國人根本不這麼說。

其他的例子,如bigger and bigger 翻成法文時,也未必翻譯成 de plus en plus grand (bigger and bigger 的標準法文翻譯) ,而是視不同的情況採用很多種翻譯,如在Linguee裡尋找bigger and bigger的法文對照翻譯,我們得到:
- bigger and bigger ambitions --> élargissement graduel des ambitions (gradual expansion of ambitions 逐漸變大的野心)

- Little by little the group got bigger and bigger --> Le groupe allait s'agrandissant (The group was getting bigger 此群體漸漸變大). 這裡的法文翻譯裡,連Little by little都省略了。

其他的例子請參考:
http://www.linguee.fr/anglais-francais/traduction/bigger%20and%20bigger.html


Phil Hand wrote:

wherestip wrote:

"更大" has been in existence at least since I first arrived in China, and that was the end of 1957.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I should revise my argument: Chinese has several ways of doing comparative adjectives (大、大于、更大、大些、(比)较大、大了(?)), so to say that "bigger" must be translated to any specific one would be a mistake.
Of course, I don't think the "ger" needs to be translated at all for a slogan - there's much more freedom.

Let's do a back translation assuming "大" is a noun


Well hang on there! That's a biased test if ever I saw one! A back translation specifically eschews rhetorical quality in favour of literalness, so of course a back translation isn't going to get you a decent slogan.

If I were translating 岂止于大, I would think about the following things:
1) The "content word" is 大, and it's in a prominent position at the end of the phrase. Therefore my English translation should also make the "big" prominent. I'd probably put it at the beginning. (In truth, I would even think about repeating it, but I won't do that here because it would kind of beg the question.)
2) It's concise. The English version should be concise
3) 大 here is an abstract noun. In English, abstracts often lack impact, so I might have to change the part of speech.
4) The 岂 or 岂止, whichever reading we use, form rhetorical questions, but rhetorical questions are used differently in English. Forcing the slogan into rhetorical question form in English would *not* necessarily be a faithful reflection of the "feel" of the Chinese.

Given those considerations:
岂止于大: Bigger and better Bigger now. Better now.
Big, and much more besides
More than just a bigger phone
Size isn't everything, so the iPhone 6 has more
Broad, tall and much, much more

Anyway, I'm still not competent to judge the slogan's quality, so my point is not to say that 岂止于大 is an awesome line. It's just that a lot of these criticisms seem like an attempt to find technical flaws where they don't exist. If there is a problem with the slogan, it's that it's rhetorically not that great.
My personal opinion is that 岂止于大 is rhetorically much better than the English "Bigger than bigger," which is one of the clunkiest straplines I've heard in ages. But like I say, that's not my call to make.
Collapse


 
Loise
Loise
France
Local time: 01:02
French to Chinese
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春风又绿江南岸 Sep 30, 2014

“春风又绿江南岸”的中文語法其實是正確的。這裡的绿是動詞,春风是主語,江南岸則是賓語,是“綠”這個動作的收受者。它的意思是說:春風又染綠了江南岸;春風又給江南岸帶來了綠意;春風又使江南岸變綠了。

這個例子又表明了,在古文裡,一個字同時可以作動詞、形容詞、名詞使用,這是很常見的現象。


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
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绿就是动词,不在于它是否是孤例 Sep 30, 2014

LoyalTrans wrote:

jyuan_us wrote:

LoyalTrans wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:

岂止于大 is rhythmically lovely. 岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth. It's about on a par with "bigger than bigger."


"岂止于大"和“岂止更大”的优劣在我看来是一目了然的事——虽然后者不一定像Phil说的那么不堪——但前者怎么又跟语法扯上了?

唐诗宋词里多少优美的句子是“不合语法”的? “春风又绿江南岸", 我不知道如果要"合乎语法”应该怎么说。翻译如果能翻到这个境界才是牛人。

个人感觉,Bigger than bigger透出一股浓厚的土豪气息,说实话,真的觉得中文译文要比原文好。


无外乎简单的主谓宾结构。



绿不是动词。做动词用的,恐怕就这一个孤例。

如果能容忍绿,不知道为什么看不得虚词“于”。汉语只要看得顺眼,读得通顺就行,管他什么语法不语法的。


[Edited at 2014-09-30 05:42 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
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大语境 Sep 30, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:

如果把上一个版本的尺码假定为1,1就是大,大就是一个优点;那么新的版本“岂止于大”就表示新版本的尺寸还是1,1本身就是大,就是说这一个优点被保存了下来。 在新版本中我们保持了它的这个“大”的优点, 也就是说尺寸还是1(不是1.1或者2),但是没有止于保留尺寸=1这个优点上, 还加了一些别的优点。

忽略原文的比较级,讨论汉语“大”跟“更大”是否为同一个意思,像是无源之水,无本之木。

你是说,“大”的意思取决于“大语境”,就是包括文本以外的背景知识的语言环境,为了理解“大”是big 还是bigger 的意思,得考虑艾风6与前一个款式一样大还是更大。

答案:艾风6更大。

那么,根据你的逻辑,“岂止于大”的大就是更大的意思。


 
Loise
Loise
France
Local time: 01:02
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春风又绿江南岸 不是孤例 Sep 30, 2014

“道可道,非常道。名可名,非常名” 在此,名字和道字是名詞和動詞。
“轉朱閣,低綺戶,照無眠。” 此處的“低”非形容詞,它跟轉、照一樣都是動詞。
“上善若水。水善利万物而不争,处众人所恶,故几於道矣。” 第一個善是名詞,第二個善是副詞,用來修飾“利”這個動詞。

[Edited at 2014-09-30 06:26 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
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从文本以外的背景知识的语言环境中, 我无法得出新版的IPHONE更大了 Sep 30, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

jyuan_us wrote:

如果把上一个版本的尺码假定为1,1就是大,大就是一个优点;那么新的版本“岂止于大”就表示新版本的尺寸还是1,1本身就是大,就是说这一个优点被保存了下来。 在新版本中我们保持了它的这个“大”的优点, 也就是说尺寸还是1(不是1.1或者2),但是没有止于保留尺寸=1这个优点上, 还加了一些别的优点。

忽略原文的比较级,讨论汉语“大”跟“更大”是否为同一个意思,像是无源之水,无本之木。

你是说,“大”的意思取决于“大语境”,就是包括文本以外的背景知识的语言环境,为了理解“大”是big 还是bigger 的意思,

答案:艾风6更大。

那么,根据你的逻辑,“岂止于大”的大就是更大的意思。


在“文本以外的背景知识的语言环境中”, 对于相当一部分人来说,东西是越小巧越好,不能想当然地认为人们会觉得IPHONE这次是做得更大了。

我的逻辑是你强加的。我不知道艾风6是更大,还是和原来一样大。看了他们的口号的翻译,仍然无法确定艾风6是否更大了。因为他们的口号没有告诉我机器更大了,我只能认为它只是和原来一样大。


 
LoyalTrans
LoyalTrans
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这么说就没意思了 Sep 30, 2014

“绿就是动词,不在于它是否是孤例。”

如果这么讲,形容词可以随便当动词用,那么汉语就没什么规则可言,right? 那还纠缠“岂止于大”是否合乎语法的问题干什么?

反过来说,“岂止于大”,我的理解是“岂+止于大”。岂的用法参见“岂有此理”,表示否定的意思。"不止于大", "哪里止于大",这样的说法有什么不对??“语法”那里错了?


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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bigger than big Sep 30, 2014

假如说,"岂止于大" = "bigger than bigger",那么"bigger than big"又该如何译呢?

 
LoyalTrans
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举个例子 Sep 30, 2014

ysun wrote:

LoyalTrans wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:

岂止于大 is rhythmically lovely. 岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth. It's about on a par with "bigger than bigger."


"岂止于大"和“岂止更大”的优劣在我看来是一目了然的事——虽然后者不一定像Phil说的那么不堪——但前者怎么又跟语法扯上了?

唐诗宋词里多少优美的句子是“不合语法”的? “春风又绿江南岸", 我不知道如果要"合乎语法”应该怎么说。翻译如果能翻到这个境界才是牛人。

个人感觉,Bigger than bigger透出一股浓厚的土豪气息,说实话,真的觉得中文译文要比原文好。

我认为,我们讨论问题时应以理服人。不摆事实讲道理而光下结论,那是无济于事的。至于“岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth”之类的话,则更是无用。那不就与《这一次大陆又输了》的作者所说的话一样了吗?

既然是翻译,就得尊重原文,就得讲语法。

此外,先不说"岂止于大"是不是比原文好,翻译的任务并非是“要比原文好”。把赵本山说的话翻译成象是钱钟书说出来的话,那就过分了。



这里讨论的是一句广告语,广告语的前提是能树立品牌形象,有助销售。如果要忠实原文,那最好的翻译无疑是“比更大还大”。

举个例子,麦氏咖啡有个广告语:滴滴香浓,意犹未尽 Good to the last drop,如果按照“忠实原文”、“合乎语法”的要求,恐怕这句完全不合格。原文提到“香浓”了吗?明明是good好吧

其实我相信Phil同学用ugly这个词也没有恶意,当然这么说的确伤感情。

就像以前教我们翻译课程的老师经常挂在嘴边的一句话,“老婆是别人的好,翻译是自己的好”,一笑。

本来就是很主观的东西,也没个权威机构能鉴定,看个人喜好吧。人家Apple市场部的人出了这么个幺蛾子都没怎么,我们这些个穷翻译在这瞎起什么劲。



[Edited at 2014-09-30 07:13 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
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不是苹果迷? Sep 30, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:

我不知道艾风6是更大

那你大概是全世界唯一不知道的人!在艾6推出之前,大家都预料到它要做得更大。
你看原文:Bigger than bigger。假如说真的不知道艾6比前款更大的话,这个英文口号也是无法理解的。为了正确读解bigger than bigger,你必须先知道艾6的大亮点就是机体更大,然后再意识到他们想说这次升级不仅仅把机体扩大,还做了更多的进步。在选定英文口号的时候,这些前提肯定都想好了。
那,中国的消费者和消费市场(包括媒体)对苹果的热情跟美国类似,所以前提大概都一样:大家已经知道款式要加大,苹果想告诉消费者,还有更多的惊喜呢。所以他们是看原文的目标群体和信息传达环境,然后考虑到译文的目标群体和信息传达环境再进行翻译。这是高明的。


 
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Protemos translation business management system
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The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.

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