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Reposted from TermCoord: Do you speak Chinglish?
Thread poster: Shirley Lao
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:29
English to Chinese
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Chinglish 的现象是不可避免的 Mar 28, 2015

Chinglish 的现象是不可避免的,而且在今后很长时间内,仍然不可避免。由于种种原因,从事中译英的 native English speakers 满足不了市场需求。很多中译英项目,还是不得不由 non-native English speakers 来做。这不能怪那些 non-native English speakers,也谈不上是他们虚报自己的英语能力(当然,不能否认确有一些是虚报的),谈不上是他们抢 native English speakers 的饭碗。就我个人而言,我并不喜欢做中译英项目,因为我做英译中的速度要比中译英快得多,按单位时间计的收益也自然会高得多。但有些客户找上门来让我做中译英,我想推也推不掉。为了保证质量,为了尽可能减少 Chinglish,就只好多花些时间,多修改几遍,只好自己吃点亏。

不过,从长远看,随着 non-native English speakers 英语水平的普遍提高,Chinglish 的现象会逐渐减少。


 
Yan Yuliang
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Chinglish是普遍现象 Mar 28, 2015

由于native speaker不足以满足庞大的中译英需求,导致很多中文翻译必须由中国人完成。举个例子:


Ever since its outset, the Company has developed a work safety culture highlgting standard management and sustained safe, steady and efficient operation, holding fast to the mission of building a “world-class company”, eyeing big culture concept and big safety philosophy, focusing eight dimensions at four levels, including strategic decision-mak
... See more
由于native speaker不足以满足庞大的中译英需求,导致很多中文翻译必须由中国人完成。举个例子:


Ever since its outset, the Company has developed a work safety culture highlgting standard management and sustained safe, steady and efficient operation, holding fast to the mission of building a “world-class company”, eyeing big culture concept and big safety philosophy, focusing eight dimensions at four levels, including strategic decision-making, policymaking, actual operation and corporate social responsibility, and persisting in standardization development.
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wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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太谦虚了 Mar 28, 2015

Yueyin,

Your written English is excellent. It's nonsense to suggest anything otherwise.


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
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Anyway, the way I see it, most "Chinglish" is written or spoken by non-native English speakers of Chinese descent, but not all non-native English speakers of Chinese descent write or speak in broken English. There's certainly plenty of those who excel in English as a secondary language. Our Chinese forum is a good testa
... See more
Yueyin,

Your written English is excellent. It's nonsense to suggest anything otherwise.


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Anyway, the way I see it, most "Chinglish" is written or spoken by non-native English speakers of Chinese descent, but not all non-native English speakers of Chinese descent write or speak in broken English. There's certainly plenty of those who excel in English as a secondary language. Our Chinese forum is a good testament to that.

Here's a Venn diagram to illustrate what I mean by the above. A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say.




A normal distribution curve should also serve the same purpose from a sightly different angle ...






[Edited at 2015-03-28 17:47 GMT]
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wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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"Chinglish" Mar 28, 2015

In the old days, "Chinglish" was quite a disparaging word, so to my ear it still sounds somewhat offensive. But these days, the word has gained some legitimacy to mean extremely bad English spoken or written by some folks in China.

In the following Wiki page explanation, they clearly differentiate Chinglish from Chinese Pidgin English. Way back when, the two terms were synonymous. Which is worse is pretty obvious to me from the
... See more
In the old days, "Chinglish" was quite a disparaging word, so to my ear it still sounds somewhat offensive. But these days, the word has gained some legitimacy to mean extremely bad English spoken or written by some folks in China.

In the following Wiki page explanation, they clearly differentiate Chinglish from Chinese Pidgin English. Way back when, the two terms were synonymous. Which is worse is pretty obvious to me from the examples given.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinglish

BTW, many reputable English dictionaries have yet to include "Chinglish" as an entry, among them the Merriam-Webster Dictionary(online version).


[Edited at 2015-03-28 18:06 GMT]
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ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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Local time: 01:29
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为什么很多中译英项目会落在 non-native English speakers 的手里 Mar 29, 2015

wherestip wrote:

Anyway, the way I see it, most "Chinglish" is written or spoken by non-native English speakers of Chinese descent, but not all non-native English speakers of Chinese descent write or speak in broken English. There's certainly plenty of those who excel in English as a secondary language. Our Chinese forum is a good testament to that.

Here's a Venn diagram to illustrate what I mean by the above. A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say.

Steve,

我同意你对这里许多同仁的高度评价。至于我,你就过奖了。我倒不认为我会交出用 "Chinglish" 写就的译文,但从Native English speakers 的眼光看来,总还是会有一定的距离。

我上面说,“由于种种原因,从事中译英的 native English speakers 满足不了市场需求。很多中译英项目,还是不得不由 non-native English speakers 来做”。这并不意味着那些 non-native English speakers 就都不称职。借用你提到的 Venn diagram,可以帮我直观地说明,为什么很多中译英项目会落在 non-native English speakers 的手里。假设我们把翻译人员分为如下三类:
A. Native English speakers having a good command of Chinese
B. Native Chinese speakers having a good command of English
C. Translators specialized in corresponding subject matters

在如下 Venn diagram 中,右上角、底下以及左上角那三个圆分别代表A、B 和 C类人群。圆的面积与其所对应人群的人数成正比。实际的情况是,B 类人数远远大于 A 类人数。不言而喻,对于中译英项目,最理想的翻译人员是深红色3区和浅绿色3区中的 Native English speakers。其次是深红色3区和黄色8区中的Native Chinese speakers。由于种种原因,例如前者供不应求,客户就会转向后者。由于后者的人数远远多于前者,所以后者拿到中译英项目的几率也会很高。应该说,能进入深红色3区和黄色8区中的Native Chinese speakers,翻译的质量不会差。



如果把价格因素包括进来,情况又会发生很大变化。如果把语言能力及专业水平较差的人也包括进来,情况将发生更大的变化。如今,很多翻译公司把价格放在头等地位,他们录用滥竽充数的人则在所难免。当然,这些人并不能包括在上述那三个圆圈内。

确实,是有一些 Native Chinese speakers 宣称他们是 native English speakers 或 near-native English speakers,但如果他们没有些真本事,最终还是骗不了客户的。

[Edited at 2015-03-29 16:24 GMT]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:29
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different sets Mar 29, 2015

Yueyin,

You certainly did a good job using the Venn diagram to illustrate your point. I agree with your analysis.

Actually, I was just doing some handwaving with what I was trying to say.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:29
Chinese to English
其实是态度,跟语言背景和能力没有直接关系 Mar 29, 2015

像Steve说的,这一词有一定的歧视色彩,我不太喜欢它,但分析起来它不仅是说非母语或非完美的英文,并不是每次发生语法错误就是chinglish。典型的chinglish 现在比较少见,就是那种根本不在乎沟通效果的英文,其实是态度问题而不是语言问题。上面的chicken ass Lincoln已经说了,不是不正确,只是译者找到可用的单词就马虎过去了,完工摆了,没有做好的意识。

 
QHE
QHE
United States
Local time: 02:29
English to Chinese
+ ...
(A&B&C) Mar 29, 2015


ysun wrote:

假设我们把翻译人员分为如下三类:
A. Native English speakers having a good command of Chinese
B. Native Chinese speakers having a good command of English
C. Translators specialized in corresponding subject matters

在如下 Venn diagram 中,右上角、底下以及左上角那三个圆分别代表A、B 和 C类人群。圆的面积与其所对应人群的人数成正比。实际的情况是,B 类人数远远大于 A 类人数。不言而喻,对于中译英项目,最理想的翻译人员是深红色3区和浅绿色3区中的 Native English speakers。其次是深红色3区和黄色8区中的Native Chinese speakers。由于种种原因,例如前者供不应求,客户就会转向后者。由于后者的人数远远多于前者,所以后者拿到中译英项目的几率也会很高。应该说,能进入深红色3区和黄色8区中的Native Chinese speakers,翻译的质量不会差。





算了又算,那个深红色区的数字好像是一。


[Edited at 2015-03-29 16:36 GMT]

 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:29
English to Chinese
+ ...
为什么 Mar 29, 2015

QHE wrote:

算了又算,那个深红色区的数字好像是一。

愿闻其详。


 
QHE
QHE
United States
Local time: 02:29
English to Chinese
+ ...
y'know Mar 29, 2015

ysun wrote:

QHE wrote:

算了又算,那个深红色区的数字好像是一。

愿闻其详。


如果按正态分布计算的话,结果是趋近于零的。



[Edited at 2015-03-29 20:42 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:29
English to Chinese
+ ...
不是脑筋急转弯吧? Mar 29, 2015

QHE wrote:

如果按正态分布计算的话,结果是趋近于零的。

实际上,深红色区域内的人既是 native English speakers,又是 native Chinese speakers,而且还具有相关领域的专业知识。这样的人确实不太多,但肯定还是有的。 y'know.


 
QHE
QHE
United States
Local time: 02:29
English to Chinese
+ ...
没转弯 :D Mar 29, 2015

ysun wrote:

QHE wrote:

如果按正态分布计算的话,结果是趋近于零的。

实际上,深红色区域内的人既是 native English speakers,又是 native Chinese speakers,而且还具有相关领域的专业知识。这样的人确实不太多,但肯定还是有的。 y'know.



我和孙先生的意思是一致的;符合(A&B&C)标准的人真是寥寥无几的凤毛麟角。


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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Local time: 01:29
English to Chinese
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确实寥寥无几 Mar 30, 2015

QHE wrote:

我和孙先生的意思是一致的;符合(A&B&C)标准的人真是寥寥无几的凤毛麟角。

符合A&B&C标准的人确实寥寥无几。较多的是符合A&C标准的人,更多的是符合B&C标准的人。但是,如果客户再设定一、两个选择标准,情况就会有很大变化。例如,如果客户设定一个较低的可接受价格,就可能把上面三个圆圈里的人全都淘汰。

[Edited at 2015-03-30 06:48 GMT]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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Now that I think about it some more... Mar 30, 2015

wherestip wrote:

Anyway, the way I see it, most "Chinglish" is written or spoken by non-native English speakers of Chinese descent, but not all non-native English speakers of Chinese descent write or speak in broken English. There's certainly plenty of those who excel in English as a secondary language. Our Chinese forum is a good testament to that.

Here's a Venn diagram to illustrate what I mean...




This is probably the type of Venn diagram (more precisely, Euler diagram) I had in mind when I said the above...







My previous imprecise use of the generic Venn diagram was due to either your typical handwaving, or a bad case of what they call a brain fart. Anyway, it definitely wasn't well thought through.

Venn diagram – one set inside another
https://illuminations.nctm.org/uploadedFiles/Content/Lessons/Resources/6-8/SortingPolygons-OH-VennInside.pdf

Euler diagram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_diagram


[Edited at 2015-03-31 12:35 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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Local time: 01:29
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Machine translation for patents Mar 30, 2015

对于某些专业性较强的文件,能够胜任的翻译(无论是 native English speakers 还是 non-native English speakers)总是满足不了市场需求。因此,连 WIPO 和 EPO 都不得不采用机器翻译。我想,用机器做英译法或法译英时,效果不会太差,但做英译汉或汉译英时,效果就惨不忍睹了。不过,这也是他们不得不采取的权宜之计。相比之下, “Carefully slip and fall down” (小心滑倒)之类的翻译,�... See more
对于某些专业性较强的文件,能够胜任的翻译(无论是 native English speakers 还是 non-native English speakers)总是满足不了市场需求。因此,连 WIPO 和 EPO 都不得不采用机器翻译。我想,用机器做英译法或法译英时,效果不会太差,但做英译汉或汉译英时,效果就惨不忍睹了。不过,这也是他们不得不采取的权宜之计。相比之下, “Carefully slip and fall down” (小心滑倒)之类的翻译,也就算不了什么了。

EPO and SIPO launch Chinese-English machine translation for patents
http://www.epo.org/news-issues/news/2012/20121206.html

A new machine translation tool is now available in PATENTSCOPE
http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/en/news/pctdb/2011/news_0001.html
The tool developed in-house at WIPO uses Moses open-source technology and has been specifically trained with bilingual corpuses of text from the patent field, taking account of the International Patent Classification (IPC). It allows users to translate the titles and abstracts of inventions from English to French and Chinese and vice versa. Other language pairs, notably Korean-English and Japanese-English are being studied.
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Reposted from TermCoord: Do you speak Chinglish?






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