Lessons learnt from jobs posting (Getting established)

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Lessons learnt from jobs posting

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Initiator des Themas: Samuel Murray

Lessons learnt from jobs posting

Claudia Iglesias

Chile

Mitglied (2002)
Spanisch > Französisch
+ ...

Moderator/in

My opinion

May 5

Samuel, I just replied to your other posting about this topic but I didn't know you hadn't used the Proz.com bidding system.

When you fill the form you have to chose among two options: your contact details visible (or you write your e-mail in the job description), or bid using Proz.com system.
I always use this option because it does make selection easier. And those who don't follow this instruction go directly to bin.

Second comment: rates don't reflect quality, experience or whatever. But I have seen more often bad translators charging too much for the quality they offer than good translators charging low rates.

In my job posting I said that the sample text should be delivered in a table, but I deliberately didn't specify what file format. A few translators created a "table" in the e-mail itself (with spaces or tabs between the two columns). I've had a few XLS files, a number of DOC files, at least one ODT file, one XLSX file, and a few PDFs.

The more information and instructions you give, the easier correction and comparison will be.

Quite a number of applicants sent their CVs or résumés. These ranged in size between 100 KB and 1.5 MB. A similar number of translators pasted their résumés in the body of the e-mail.

I have a look at résumés only if the first impression is good. As I said, I use the Proz.com bid system and download CVs from profiles when needed, I hate having CVs pasted in those forms, because I print all the bids and some translators paste CVs that are 3 pages long.

Only about 5 of the applicants said "no money, no sample", and I won't hold it against them (although without a translated sample I have less to judge them on). However, quite a number of other applicants simply didn't send the translated sample at all, and made no mention of the omission.

When you use the form all the translators see the sample and its length is controlled automatically (I don't know if this was your case), I usually get all the tests done. They know that everyone is having the same test and that it's not too long.
If one of your requirements is the test and that you need it to judge them, forget those who didn't do it.

At least three translators are offering me a Trados discount. Two of them mentioned discounts for fuzzy matches, and one simply said "You pay less because I use Trados". I haven't decided if these translators had had a look at the sample or not...

I hate this as much as those who bid under the rate you offer when you have a determined rate.

For those who haven't got a job through Proz.com yet I'd say... keep trying, contact the outsourcer to ask about the criteria for chosing the translator.
Most of the time the selection process is long and exhausting and the outsourcer might not have time to reply, but try.

I think that the MOST important factor when you bid is that you must be convinced that the job is for you because you're the most qualified for it.

If Trados is required and you have never used it, or if native language is required and you don't have it, or whatever requirements is asked for and you don't fulfill it, don't bid, or if you do because you think you are still the most qualified for it, go straight and say it: although I don't use Trados, I use Wordfast and I think...

Standard bids, with standard messages... are not good.

Claudia

Heike Behl, Ph.D.

Vereinigte Staaten

Mitglied (2003)
Englisch > Deutsch
+ ...

similar experience

May 5

I tried to outsource a single job in the past using Proz... Not a good experience at all.

Although I'm not a big stickler for translating only into your mother tongue (I see too many translators doing just that but missing the finer points of the source language - it all depends on the skills of the individual), it was at least clear that I expected somebody with excellent language skills. Half of the e-mails I got were full of grammatical errors of non-native speakers seriously believing their meager English skills would be enough to translate a complex business/financial text. And promising translations of the highest quality...

I also requested a test translation consisting of 3 short sentences with specific financial terminology. Same experience as yours: Only a few actually bothered to deliver the sample, and the results were appalling. Some looked as if the translator had just taken a dictionary, looked up each word and inserted whatever first definition they found.

There was one single candidate I could take seriously enough on a professional level, but even he was not fully convincing in the short test translation.

It was a job with a fairly tight deadline, but I also offered a very decent rate (I actually wouldn't have made a penny from this project, but paid extra out of my own pocket) because my main interest was to find a qualified translator. No such luck. I'm sure (and I sure hope) that a more generous deadline would have attracted more interested translators, among them at least a few really qualified people. But would I really want to suffer through even more of those horrible e-mails and waste even more of my time?

[BTW, with regard to people complaining about outsourcers not replying to their applications... I couldn't have answered those e-mails without becoming really insulting. I was upset of not being able to find a qualified translator and really ticked off at the nerve of some people wasting my time for nothing when they were so clearly unqualified. So I have the fullest understanding for outsourcers not sending any replies.]

johnjack wrote:
Nevertheless, I wonder how many outsourcers are so rightly aware of the importance of writing correct presentations as you are, a translator yourself, as to care so much about the form. Being a young translator, my modest impression is that employers value rates first, than experience and CVs.

I would hope that anybody dealing with language (unless it's an end client who just needs to find a cheap translator and simply doesn't know any better) would place huge importance on the writing skills of a potential vendor.
The e-mail is the first thing you get from them. If time is of the essence and there are lots of applications, nobody is going to waste any time reading CVs or test translations from people who don't care enough or are unable to write properly. Lackadaisical spelling, absence of capitalization etc. might be OK in e-mails to friends and family, but are out of place in business mails.

Samuel Murray

Südafrika

Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Afrikaans
+ ...

Clients usually do value rates first

May 5

johnjack wrote:
Being a young translator, my modest impression is that employers value rates first, than experience and CVs.

Well, you're not wrong. The rate is usually very, very important. Very few clients have unlimited budgets and care only about the quality of the translation. Most clients have limited funds, but they also want a good translation.

In the one language combination of my job posting, no less than 10 people offered USD 0.05 per word. If this was your rate, and if I were to decide that this is the ideal rate for me and my job, then what would make your application stand out above the other 9 candidates'? You may not have PhDs and decades of experience, but if you mail exudes "I'm a professional and I deliver a professional service", then your battle is half won.

Samuel Murray

Südafrika

Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Afrikaans
+ ...

Some answers...

May 5

Claudia Iglesias wrote:
When you use the form all the translators see the sample and its length is controlled automatically (I don't know if this was your case), I usually get all the tests done.

Yes, there was a space for a sample text, but it had a character limit which limited my sample text to about 80 words. I can think of very few jobs in which a sample of 80 words would be sufficient to judge a translator.

megane_wang

Spanien

Mitglied (2007)
Englisch > Spanisch
+ ...

Mine was not such a bad experience, but asked for something different

May 5

Hi Samuel,

I posted a job once for an edition job (English->English). I used the forms provided by ProZ.com because I did not want to go through a collection of e-mails (I have hired people several times for my own company and simply HATE this process - being unable to write down a decent presentation is not the worst thing you find in any hiring process).

The result was good; I just allowed a few entries and closed the offer almost immediately; picked 2 people who had taken the time to write a couple of sentences about themselves and rates... yeah, done

About dear Johnjack comments:

This is my experience related to presentation/cover letters while hiring someone:

- Candidates without any presentation usually go to the end of the list, very close to the bin unless the others are really bad.

- A badly written presentation is always noticed, and sent to the bin (unless there is a good reason for it; let's say that someone asks for a programming job -not writing- and has had no time to learn Spanish yet, but tries to write a presentation in Spanish - that's usually more than welcome).

- A well-written and short presentation is always noticed. It creates interest enough to invest the time needed to read a CV.

Note that most outsources are usually humans working under a tight schedule, as tight as yours. They need to trust someone who speaks and writes a different language and usually have limited time and material to take a first decision (that is, to take the time to read a CV or ask for a test).

In summary, outsourcers don't need to be aware of aything. But you can be SURE that they use anything that helps them to decide (either positively or negatively).

Best regards and best luck,

Ruth @ MW

[Edited at 2008-05-05 10:10]

johnjack
Italien
Englisch > Italienisch
+ ...

thanks

May 5

megane_wang wrote:

Note that most outsources are usually humans working under a tight schedule, as tight as yours. They need to trust someone who speaks and writes a different language and usually have limited time and material to take a first decision (that is, to take the time to read a CV or ask for a test).

In summary, outsourcers don't need to be aware of aything. But you can be SURE that they use anything that helps them to decide (either positively or negatively).

Thanks for your contribution, your comment cannot but buoy me up

, however, I wish all employers were like you...

Fabiana Zardo
Brasilien
Englisch > Portugiesisch
+ ...

Yeah, newbies are reading this =)

May 5

I consider myself a newbie because I've started to translate professionally in 2007. Tha'ts when I started to pay attention to fares, résumés, job posting and all the rest.

First of all, even if it was my first day...isn't it all basic stuff? I mean, when you apply to a job (any job), you have to give as many info as possible, in a clear and well organized way.

I try my best to give my clients what they've asked for. I know that many won't even read everything, but I still write all the info I think it's necessary.

I bid all the time and I've never got an answer. Not from Proz, at least.

I'm aware of my abilities and I also know that I can do a much better job than some of the people that you've all just mentioned.

I came to realize that's part of the game. It sucks to know someone else is making money that could be yours. But I've learned to not let these things get to me.

I just want to say that I love to read all your threads….it’s very nice to learn from people around the globe.

[Edited at 2008-05-05 17:58]

Alfredo Fernández Martínez

Spanien

Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Spanisch
+ ...

Translations test can be heavy too

May 5

Hello all,

I would only like to drop a quick note about the above-named translation tests.

With no doubt, many of us are sooooo tired of doing so many translation tests... to no avail, no answer, etc.
Some of them being, by the way, quite long, and / or dense.

So, I comes as no surprise to me, if an outsourcer only receives the translation of only very few people... who have had the time and taken the pains to actually translate his/her test.

Many of these texts are, simply, far too long-winded, too dense, and full of terms which take up quite a while to look up, work out, search, consult, etc.

And, let's face it: many of us feel there are outsourcers out there, who get their translations FOR FREE, and here we are, naive and foolish, WORKING FOR FREE.

Well, controversial as it may sound, I do think that feature is rather abused.
Much as an outsourcer would like to see the output and quality of the translator, hey, let's face it, some tests are, simply, far too long, and are no promise of even getting an answer back, or one being added to their database.

Maybe we should also test the outsources, so we are able to see which kind of source test they provide, on which format, and so on.

All the best,

Alfredo

Daina Jauntirans

Vereinigte Staaten

Mitglied (2005)
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...

But that's exactly the point!!

May 6

ALFREDO FERNANDEZ MARTINEZ wrote:

Many of these texts are, simply, far too long-winded, too dense, and full of terms which take up quite a while to look up, work out, search, consult, etc.

Really? If the text is not comprehensible to you and you have to look up every term, then you are NOT the translator for the job!! Why would you even want a job you are clearly not qualified to do? That's the whole point of translation tests - to figure out who can handle the material.

I am actually pro-test and don't mind doing them for free for good prospects (although, of course, I don't mind being paid for them either). A lot of translators here tend to forget that these tests provide translators with useful information as well - what type of texts to expect from the customer, how the customer works, the customer's expectations, etc.

Alfredo Fernández Martínez

Spanien

Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Spanisch
+ ...

There all translation test, and other translation test

May 6

Daina,

I can see your point there. But I totally disagree.

As an example, I do encounter, for example, in the German > Spanish combination, some technical tests which are often very dense, and far too long.

And I did mention the length as an off-putting factor.

As you probably know, in the technical world, and specifically, a 2 o 3 word compound is not how you combine the words, but you have to look for the equivalent in your native language.

If you don't, then you are risking not to be understood. Languages, and they way people speak and write, are simply the way they are, not they way one would wish them to be.

And, as I am not an engineer myself, neither a technically qualified person, I do need to check technical terms.

I don't know about you, but you may be surprised if you check terms, only to find out the actual word in your target language.

I am talking about technical translations, not about the translation of an ordinary letter, or of a birth certificate.

And, I repeat it once again:
Yes, I do mind working for free. Many technical tests in that combination do take a good 2-3 hours.

Maybe, and an exception to the rule, a 50-100 words test may be eventually 'ok' to do...but definitely not a 400 words one, or above.

Alfredo

Daina Jauntirans

Vereinigte Staaten

Mitglied (2005)
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...

OK, that's your opinion

May 6

I guess I wouldn't take on technical translations in that case.

Samuel Murray

Südafrika

Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Afrikaans
+ ...

Taking time doesn't mean you're no good

May 7

Daina Jauntirans wrote:

ALFREDO FERNANDEZ MARTINEZ wrote:
Many of these texts are, simply, far too long-winded, too dense, and full of terms which take up quite a while to look up, work out, search, consult, etc.

Really? If the text is not comprehensible to you and you have to look up every term, then you are NOT the translator for the job!! Why would you even want a job you are clearly not qualified to do?

I must disagree here. Not all good translators are fast translators.

Some translators believe they have a knack for picking out the correct answer after very little research, whereas others have learnt to be cautious and spend more time on research to make extra sure of the answers to translation problems. I'm not judging either camp, but I do believe you can't judge a translator's skill by timing him.

Still, an unpaid test by definition should not take long (because it's unpaid), and I think a translator should place a time limit on himself when doing an unpaid test translation.

Joan Berglund

Vereinigte Staaten

Mitglied (Feb 2008)
Französisch > Englisch

I don't think taking time means your no good

May 7

But I do think that if a given translation test is taking a long time, then it is a good indication that the job is better suited for someone with a higher degree of expertise in the specific field. I am talking about myself here. Most tests are fairly short and not really an inconvenience, but some are doozies. So I generally decide that I don't really want that job. Not everyone is an expert in every field, and really that's ok, we can still be good people.

Gabriel Csaba

Argentinien

Mitglied (2006)
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...

Madeleine says it best

May 28

Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:

NMR wrote:
Secondly, there are lots and lots of translators – even good ones – for which capitalisation and punctuation is totally irrelevant to translation (for them, lay-out should be done by the agency, the secretary of the company or the printing house), and who aren’t even conscious of what you are talking about.

Caps, punctuation, spelling - this has nothing to do with layout. Layout relates to formatting of text.

Any, so called, good translator should be capable of using correct grammar, not just in their target language, but also when writing in their source language. If a translator does not understand the basic grammatical structure of their source language, how on earth can this person possible fully understand the text they're translating?

Beautifully stated!

Gabriel Csaba

Argentinien

Mitglied (2006)
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...

I'm a big pro-test too

May 28

Daina Jauntirans wrote:

ALFREDO FERNANDEZ MARTINEZ wrote:

Many of these texts are, simply, far too long-winded, too dense, and full of terms which take up quite a while to look up, work out, search, consult, etc.

Translation tests save me a lot of time and effort in that I instantly get to know if the job is going to be easy, difficult, or not for me at all.
Skipping a test is like lying in your resume -in the end, the only one you fool is yourself.

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