| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | How do I use SDLTM with MemoQ? Thread poster: Thomas T. Frost
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Stepan Konev 
Russian Federation
Local time: 12:11
English to Russian
| There hundreds of them | Oct 6, 2015 |
Well, if not millions, then hundreds for sure (I bet you never heard about Snowball or Oddjob. Less popular are Logoport, xliff editor, Idiom, etc...)
You need to test ALL formats before you can definitely say whether they are supported or not.
When I buy any software, I can always see 'Supported Operating Systems: 1,2,3,...'
But I've never seen a section like 'Unsupported OS'.
This is exatly what is called 'conservative scenario': if not mentioned, support ... See more Well, if not millions, then hundreds for sure (I bet you never heard about Snowball or Oddjob. Less popular are Logoport, xliff editor, Idiom, etc...)
You need to test ALL formats before you can definitely say whether they are supported or not.
When I buy any software, I can always see 'Supported Operating Systems: 1,2,3,...'
But I've never seen a section like 'Unsupported OS'.
This is exatly what is called 'conservative scenario': if not mentioned, support not guranteed.
Optimistic scenario is: not mentioned but supported - good for you.
To summarize, can you offer any example of product with such 'unsupported' list available beforehand?
[Edited at 2015-10-06 20:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thomas T. Frost
Portugal
Local time: 10:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Why not make things helpful? | Oct 6, 2015 |
There is a subtle difference between hundreds and millions.
"(I bet you never heard about Snowball. Less popular are Logoport, xliff editor, Idiom, etc...)"
If you know about them, why wouldn't those who make the CAT tools?
"You need to test ALL formats before you can definitely say whether they are supported or not."
No, you don't need to test any format when you are the creator of the CAT tool, because you know exactly which support for which... See more There is a subtle difference between hundreds and millions.
"(I bet you never heard about Snowball. Less popular are Logoport, xliff editor, Idiom, etc...)"
If you know about them, why wouldn't those who make the CAT tools?
"You need to test ALL formats before you can definitely say whether they are supported or not."
No, you don't need to test any format when you are the creator of the CAT tool, because you know exactly which support for which formats has been designed and programmed. So you take the list with all the other formats and copy and paste them onto a list with unsupported formats. It's really simple. You've already spent more time arguing why it shouldn't be done than it would have taken to copy such a list.
"When I buy any software, I can always see 'Supported Operating Systems: 1,2,3,...'
But I've never seen a section like 'Unsupported OS'."
There is a handful of common operating systems only, so you can be pretty sure it isn't supported if not mentioned. That's not the same situation for translation file formats.
"This is exatly what is called 'conservative scenario': if not mentioned, support not guranteed."
Except that you are wrong, as I have already pointed out. MemoQ supports the wsxz format, but they can't be bothered to mention it in their list of supported formats on https://www.memoq.com/languages-and-file-formats . I pointed that out in a ticket more than 2 months ago, so that's why I say "can't be bothered" instead of "forgot". Instead, they renamed the file name I just mentioned by changing the "_" to "-", breaking all existing links in the process (now fixed with a 301 redirect after I pointed it out), a change that is completely useless for users.
"Optimistic scenario is: not mentioned but supported - good for you."
Wrong again. Not good for me, because I might turn down a job because I thought the format was not supported, whereas it was secretly supported.
"To summarize, can you offer any example of product with such 'unsupported' list available beforehand?"
Depends what you mean with "beforehand". I'm not going to spend time looking for such information just because you ask for it. What I'm trying to say is that it would be helpful if CAT tool companies made such lists available somewhere, and I don't quite get what your point is that you want documentation to be as poor as possible. Maybe it's a question of different cultures and different expectations to user friendliness. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:11
Dutch to English
+ ...
| Well, if you don't mind me saying | Oct 6, 2015 |
it's natural that a particular file format from one manufacturer will not necessarily be supported by another CAT. Especially as this issue has not been around for as long as Microsoft v Apple. The point is that if you do work with a different CAT, you need to be prepared for that and approach the issue with the question 'how do I get it to work' not 'how dare they not support it'. SDL is better at not supporting stuff than MemoQ, IMO. There is also lots of info online about how to convert witho... See more it's natural that a particular file format from one manufacturer will not necessarily be supported by another CAT. Especially as this issue has not been around for as long as Microsoft v Apple. The point is that if you do work with a different CAT, you need to be prepared for that and approach the issue with the question 'how do I get it to work' not 'how dare they not support it'. SDL is better at not supporting stuff than MemoQ, IMO. There is also lots of info online about how to convert without needing Trados for that (although using Trados is probably best, because computers get cranky when something is not done quite as it's supposed to be done).
MemoQ has a very comprehensive 'help' online which has always told me what I needed to know in five minutes. http://kilgray.com/memoq/60/help-en/index.html?tms_tmx.html
The little bit at the end about Trados tells me that it doesn't support the sdltm format, but does support tmx files exported by Trados (obviously). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 12:11
English to Russian
| @Thomas T. Frost re: question of different cultures | Oct 6, 2015 |
it's natural that ... will not necessarily be supported — Exactly/Strongly Agree
you need to be prepared — Exactly/Strongly Agree (this is what I call a conservative scenario)
SDL is better at not supporting — Not Exactly/Disagree (IMHO: ... is best at not supporting ...)
@Kirsten Bodart
I cannot add a word. Exactly what I mean t/x
[Edited at 2015-10-06... See more it's natural that ... will not necessarily be supported — Exactly/Strongly Agree
you need to be prepared — Exactly/Strongly Agree (this is what I call a conservative scenario)
SDL is better at not supporting — Not Exactly/Disagree (IMHO: ... is best at not supporting ...)
@Kirsten Bodart
I cannot add a word. Exactly what I mean t/x
[Edited at 2015-10-06 20:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Thomas T. Frost
Portugal
Local time: 10:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I didn't say that | Oct 6, 2015 |
"it's natural that a particular file format from one manufacturer will not necessarily be supported by another CAT."
Indeed. I was simply caught by surprise because MemoQ in their marketing had highlighted how compatible they are.
"if you do work with a different CAT"
What is "a different CAT"? They are all different from one another. Not sure what you mean, that's all.
"approach the issue with the question 'how do I get it to work' not 'how d... See more "it's natural that a particular file format from one manufacturer will not necessarily be supported by another CAT."
Indeed. I was simply caught by surprise because MemoQ in their marketing had highlighted how compatible they are.
"if you do work with a different CAT"
What is "a different CAT"? They are all different from one another. Not sure what you mean, that's all.
"approach the issue with the question 'how do I get it to work' not 'how dare they not support it'. "
I never said anything like "how do they dare not support it". Please note the title of this topic before you criticise something I haven't said. I searched all the MemoQ documentation I have downloaded (i.e. all the manuals), then their knowledgebase, and the only result was the link I posted originally, and which simply said nothing about compatibility or not. Knowing from the wsxz example that they don't always tell you if a format is supported or not, that wasn't enough information. It's a bit complicated to know which direction to take if they don't tell you if such a common format is supported or not. I simply wanted information. It's a very simple piece of information to provide, and it would have saved a lot of time.
Many manufacturers do have factsheets that show you "YES" or "NO" in table form for a list of features.
"There is also lots of info online about how to convert without needing Trados for that"
I found one article about how to convert to TMX, but I have found nothing about converting back to SDLTM, which was what the client wanted. I don't know if that's possible outside Trados. We'll have to find another solution.
"MemoQ has a very comprehensive 'help' online which has always told me what I needed to know in five minutes. http://kilgray.com/memoq/60/help-en/index.html?tms_tmx.html. The little bit at the end about Trados tells me that it doesn't support the sdltm format, but does support tmx files exported by Trados (obviously)."
"Search results for: sdltm
No results found."
As you can see, one cannot find that article when searching for "sdltm" because that keyword does not appear in the article. Besides, the article doesn't mention the SDLTM format at all, regardless of keyword. It only refers to TMX.
If it had been so easy to find, I wouldn't have started a topic.
When you are about to get started with a major client that demands SDLTM, and Kilgray simply doesn't tell you anything about it, it can get frustrating and stressful. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thomas T. Frost
Portugal
Local time: 10:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | "You need to be prepared" | Oct 6, 2015 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
you need to be prepared
It's so easy, when you know something, to belittle people who don't know it, and I don't appreciate that haughty attitude. The purpose of these forums is to assist one another, not criticise each other for not knowing everything already.
How exactly do you prepare when Kilgray withholds the information you need? I needed very precisely to know: "does MemoQ support SDLTM?" Yes or no? There is no answer on their website. They can do better.
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 12:11
English to Russian
| About culture | Oct 6, 2015 |
Where is criticism for not knowing or belittling?
When I answered your question about alleged non-supporting by memoQ you used CAPSLOCK. Evidence of culture?
When I tried to explain that your expectation is higher than standard (as supported by your country-mate), you speak about cultural differences. Evidence of culture again?
And what kind of help you seek by your post? Help in saying that memoQ must be better?
[Edited at 2015-10-06 21:13 GMT]
| | | | Thomas T. Frost
Portugal
Local time: 10:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I think telling me I need to prepare better is criticism. All I asked for in this topic was information about how to deal with SDLTM in MemoQ. Telling me I need to prepare better isn't helpful in that context.
Indeed, I used caps in the title, as I'm not sure if < i > tags work in the title, and I admit I was a little annoyed, because I had very clearly written that I needed information about SDLTM files, but you started talking about SDLPPX instead. I was annoyed because of this st... See more I think telling me I need to prepare better is criticism. All I asked for in this topic was information about how to deal with SDLTM in MemoQ. Telling me I need to prepare better isn't helpful in that context.
Indeed, I used caps in the title, as I'm not sure if < i > tags work in the title, and I admit I was a little annoyed, because I had very clearly written that I needed information about SDLTM files, but you started talking about SDLPPX instead. I was annoyed because of this stressful situation that I have explained: important client needing a common format Kilgray keeps silent about. That's all.
I then wrote that it would have been useful if they had a list of common formats they can't handle, and then you started arguing against that, making wild exaggerations. I still don't understand why it's so important for you that such information should not be available. It would be so easy to provide. There is nothing like transparency to get happy customers. That way, you know precisely what to expect and what not. That's why I hinted at cultural differences, as some cultures may have more demanding habits than others. I may be more demanding than others, but on the other hand, if nobody ever points out what could be improved, then nothing will be improved. If you're not interested in such a list, that's fine, but why keep arguing that nobody else should have it either?
To quote Mark Twain:
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." ▲ Collapse
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VIP9N
Local time: 12:11
Russian to English
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| All CATs have their proprietory formats for storing "memories" | Oct 7, 2015 |
Dear Thomas,
You should not mix a CAT capability to process the translated materials and (only) some of the other CATs' project formats with the working files (required to operate) of those CATs themselves. SDLTM is the proprietory format of Trados Studio to store its own memories. It cannot be read or written by any other software. Even by its own ancestor Trados Workbench. By the way, MemoQ has its own formats too ... See more
| | | | Thomas T. Frost
Portugal
Local time: 10:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Compatibility is a known concept | Oct 7, 2015 |
VIP9N wrote:
You should not mix a CAT capability to process the translated materials and (only) some of the other CATs' project formats with the working files (required to operate) of those CATs themselves.
I'm sorry, I have read this statement several times, but I don't understand what it is intended to say.
VIP9N wrote:
SDLTM is the proprietory format of Trados Studio to store its own memories. It cannot be read or written by any other software. Even by its own ancestor Trados Workbench. By the way, MemoQ has its own formats too. It seems to me that the thing is obvious for anyone who is in touch with CATs, software or computers.
Yes, they have proprietary formats, but that doesn't imply that only their own software can handle it. IBM also has propritary interfaces for many things, but competing or complementary companies still produce hardware and software that is compatible, from processors to security software. Apple has their own formats, but Microsoft still produces Office for Apple systems. In fact, I'm pretty sure that competition law obliges such companies to make their interface specifications available to whomever wants it so they can design competing products.
You argue as if the concept of compatibility didn't exist, but that's a false basis.
MemoQ openly supports SDLPPX, a proprietary format, and SDLTM is supported by MemoQ when part of SDLPPX file, so there is nothing obvious about which such formats are supported or not.
VIP9N wrote:
And I see nothing serious or humiliating me, if ask my client(-s) not to send me formats that I cannot process.
Neither do I, but first, I need to know if the format is supported or not, and that was the bit of information MemoQ didn't publish. Precise information is crucial for making decisions.
VIP9N wrote:
No matter how unreasonable man I am, I know that to get the required result I am to adhere the rules of the game.
Which rules?
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 12:11
English to Russian
| I need to know if the format is supported or not | Oct 7, 2015 |
Isn't it easy?
Why don't you download a demo version and test all formats you need? They threatened you with guns? You bought a product under pressure without testing it?
You have a whole month for that. You say that there are not so many CAT tools. Then why cant you test them all on your own and make a decision? You need to know — you perform experiments . Isn't it fair?
Let me guess: you could not do so (test on your own), because you could not know what file format you may... See more Isn't it easy?
Why don't you download a demo version and test all formats you need? They threatened you with guns? You bought a product under pressure without testing it?
You have a whole month for that. You say that there are not so many CAT tools. Then why cant you test them all on your own and make a decision? You need to know — you perform experiments . Isn't it fair?
Let me guess: you could not do so (test on your own), because you could not know what file format you may need to process next Monday or next 12th of Dcemebr, right? If you cannot predict all the formats you may get in your work, why Kilgray must be able to do so?
[Edited at 2015-10-07 11:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Proprietary formats vs exchange files? | Oct 7, 2015 |
Hi,
Perhaps the solution is to use well established (over many years) exchange formats for these files. In this case TMX. Your client, if they are happy with you using a different CAT would surely provide a TMX?
Regards
Paul
SDL Community Support
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Thomas T. Frost
Portugal
Local time: 10:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Sarcasm is getting us nowhere | Oct 7, 2015 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
Isn't it easy?
Why don't you download a demo version and test all formats you need? They threatened you with guns? You bought a product under pressure without testing it?
You have a whole month for that. You say that there are not so much CAT tools. Then why cant yoiu test them all on your own? You need to know — you perform experiments . Isn't it fair?
BTW, I guess you would like Studio's feature to select file type identifier. Instead of checking one that I need, I have to uncheck 53 ticks of 54 to make that one work LOL
Stepan, your comments are completely irrelevant to this topic.
Why should I download a demo version when I already have a licence?
I have not complained they don't support that format. The only thing I wanted was clear information as to whether it was supported or not, and how otherwise to deal with that format when having MemoQ. That's really simple, but you want to make a big deal out of it. Who better to supply such information than the software publisher?
You tell me to test all the formats I need before buying the software. And you have also said the software publisher can't possibly know all the formats. How do you expect me to be able to predict all the formats clients will ask for, whereas a CAT tool publisher can't possibly know which formats exist?
You can spend a very long time testing CAT tools for very little benefit. These tools are complicated to use, and you may not be able to find out by yourself how every format is supported simply by trying, as there may be different methods for using them, so less obvious than others. You can calculate what a month's working time costs in monetary terms. There would be more waste in terms of lost working hours than the cost of the software.
What is your point? I say I'd like the software publisher to provide better information. You keep arguing they shouldn't. Why is it so important for you that such information should not be provided?
| | | | Thomas T. Frost
Portugal
Local time: 10:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
SDL Community wrote:
Perhaps the solution is to use well established (over many years) exchange formats for these files. In this case TMX. Your client, if they are happy with you using a different CAT would surely provide a TMX?
That's what is going to happen: TMX or SDLPPX. CfConverter can convert SDLTM to TMX but not the other way. Trados shoulc support TMX both ways.
Once clear information was available, I could discuss how to proceed with the client.
The problem was that the information was not made public by Kilgray. Nothing can replace clear, transparent, unambiguous, exact information even though Stepan would apparently prefer less information to be available.
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Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Trados shoulc support TMX both ways.
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