| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Agency requesting deductions from invoice Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| legal questions the first issue | Mar 4, 2010 |
In legal terms:
In Germany, translations are "works for hire" unless something else is agreed to in a contract. This seems to be internationally fairly typical and means that the client has to come to you with concrete complaints about concrete improvements and give you the chance to fix them before having them fixed elsewhere at your cost.
The translation agency is probably trying to do something that they have no legal right to do.
I would ignore the question of the ad... See more In legal terms:
In Germany, translations are "works for hire" unless something else is agreed to in a contract. This seems to be internationally fairly typical and means that the client has to come to you with concrete complaints about concrete improvements and give you the chance to fix them before having them fixed elsewhere at your cost.
The translation agency is probably trying to do something that they have no legal right to do.
I would ignore the question of the adequacy of your translation for the moment. The issue here is your right to make corrections before being financially penalized and this seems like a much simpler basis for a legal claim.
I would suggest looking at French law (if that is where your place of business is) and at the contract between you and the translation agency. It seems like they will give you a very clear basis for your refusal to reduce your price.
The other point is also right: the translation agency and not the translator is responsible to the customer for the quality of work. Their responsibility to edit is part of the reason that they skim so much money from the amount paid by the customer.
In practical terms:
The best thing to do is probably to decide how important future work from the agency is and to decide on a maximum discount that you are willing to offer.
That means putting up with a lot of telephone conversations until you get to the bottom of the situation and also emphasizing the quality and dependable work that you have been providing for years. In the end, the agency probably doesn't have a leg to stand on, they have almost certainly done things wrong and it is their responsibility to make sure that your translation pleases the customer: That is what they get paid for.
I would keep that in the back of my mind and aim for zero discount, but stay diplomatic and try to strengthen a productive relationship in the process. The agency needs to know that you know your rights and that your being reasonable does not include caving in to arbitrary complaints. (If you get into a discussion of quality, make sure that the arbitrary changes really are arbitrary and not a product of job-specific conventions and vocabulary. And, again, if you weren't given sufficient information ahead of time, that is the agency's error.) ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Legal questions | Mar 4, 2010 |
Michael, you have been very helpful, thank you. Clear and concise
My business is registered in France but frankly I have no idea where to go for legal advice on my rights. There was no PO or contract so I imagine any arbitration would take place in accordance with Danish law. Am also a member of the Chartered Institute of Linguists in the UK but have just looked at their website and doesn't seem they have any advisory... See more Michael, you have been very helpful, thank you. Clear and concise
My business is registered in France but frankly I have no idea where to go for legal advice on my rights. There was no PO or contract so I imagine any arbitration would take place in accordance with Danish law. Am also a member of the Chartered Institute of Linguists in the UK but have just looked at their website and doesn't seem they have any advisory service. ▲ Collapse
| | | | pcovs
Denmark
Local time: 09:20
English to Danish
I have not been able to find an English version of this yet (not too much time to do so), but I have found a place where it says, that the buying company can actually chose to claim a reduced price, BUT the reduction for quality issues must reflect the actual price for fixing the translation. I don't see how your agency could possibly spend 50% of your rate on fixing this.
They can chose to have you remedy the translation also, but it is not mandatory.
It is, however, more or ... See more I have not been able to find an English version of this yet (not too much time to do so), but I have found a place where it says, that the buying company can actually chose to claim a reduced price, BUT the reduction for quality issues must reflect the actual price for fixing the translation. I don't see how your agency could possibly spend 50% of your rate on fixing this.
They can chose to have you remedy the translation also, but it is not mandatory.
It is, however, more or less common practice in the translation business.
Also, in this text below it says, that you as the supplier can stop the buyer (B2B, not consumer) from claiming a reduced price by offering to remedy the translation.
"Afhjælpningsret for sælger
KBL § 49 (ej forbrugerkøb): Sælger kan afskære købers misligholdelsesbeføjelser (undtagen erstatning) ved at tilbyde afhjælpning, omlevering eller efterlevering. Skal ske uden ulempe for køber og inden det tidspunkt, hvor køber efter forsinkelsesreglerne, ville kunne have ophævet købet."
Perhaps this can be of use to you. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Right of first refusal | Mar 4, 2010 |
PCovs wrote:
Also, in this text below it says, that you as the supplier can stop the buyer (B2B, not consumer) from claiming a reduced price by offering to remedy the translation.
I appreciate your time - thank you. Does it say anywhere that they categorically must offer me this opportunity before going elsewhere?
P.S. Sadly my Danish is non-existent.
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pcovs
Denmark
Local time: 09:20
English to Danish
| No, but this text gives you a veto | Mar 4, 2010 |
so you shouldn't need any law compelling them to ask for it.
The text, I sent, means that you have the ultimate right to attempt to remedy before any other action is taken - this is your choice whether you wish to offer to remedy or not.
In other words, if you go through all the changes in your translation and rebut or accept any changes with comments, I would say this is sufficient.
If the buyer does not accept your attempt to remedy the translation, they ... See more so you shouldn't need any law compelling them to ask for it.
The text, I sent, means that you have the ultimate right to attempt to remedy before any other action is taken - this is your choice whether you wish to offer to remedy or not.
In other words, if you go through all the changes in your translation and rebut or accept any changes with comments, I would say this is sufficient.
If the buyer does not accept your attempt to remedy the translation, they can only ask for a reduced price corresponding to the actual amount spend on having someone else remedying it, i.e. the cost of their in-house proofreading. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | English version | Mar 4, 2010 |
PCovs wrote:
so you shouldn't need any law compelling them to ask for it.
Thanks PCovs. I've done a Google and think I may have found a useful link. So the 'Købeloven' is the Sale of Goods Act, yes? This isn't an official translation but it'll do I think: http://www.sprog.asb.dk/SN/Danish%20Sale%20of%20Goods%20Act.pdf
I suppose the crucial point up for dispute is the fact that I didn't offer to remedy the situation which I couldn't do since I was not made aware of the fact that there was a problem at all! They haven't even given me the chance to go through the revisions and comment or not on them, the translation was revised and returned to the client before I was even made aware of a problem. It's not a very honourable way to behave IMHO.
[Edited at 2010-03-04 11:35 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | pcovs
Denmark
Local time: 09:20
English to Danish
| So they actually did not use their right to complain... | Mar 4, 2010 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
I suppose the crucial point up for dispute is the fact that I didn't offer to remedy the situation which I couldn't do since I was not made aware of the fact that there was a problem at all! They haven't even given me the chance to go through the revisions and comment or not on them, the translation was revised and returned to the client before I was even made aware of a problem. It's not a very honourable way to behave IMHO.
[Edited at 2010-03-04 11:35 GMT]
This is another matter - actually if they never made you aware that there was a flaw in the translation, this is a different matter all together.
The buyer in a B2B relationship has a duty to investigate the product at once for flaws etc., and they must report any such flaws to you immediately to be able to claim anything based on such flaws! This seems indeed to have not been the case, and therefore you have all the more reason to refuse any reduction.
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Sorry I might not have explained properly | Mar 4, 2010 |
PCovs wrote:
The buyer in a B2B relationship has a duty to investigate the product at once for flaws etc., and they must report any such flaws to you immediately to be able to claim anything based on such flaws! This seems indeed to have not been the case, and therefore you have all the more reason to refuse any reduction.
Thanks very much PCovs. Yes, I see that in item 47 of the act.
Do you, out of interest, know if there is a time limit on me taking further action? If they have not replied to my last message saying that I do not accept their 50% reduction can I leave it at that for the time being and hope that they will honour my invoice? This is what I wrote to them:
'I am frankly deeply disappointed. A 50% reduction is wholly unreasonable in this instance. I don’t know a translation company in the world who would slash that much from a translator’s invoice. I booked myself out for over 3 weeks to do this work, turned down countless jobs from other very good clients of mine. I spent even longer than usual on one of the translations. I was not even given the opportunity to revise the translations again myself at my own expense, which according to other agencies I’ve spoken to would absolutely be the correct first course of action. I was simply presented with a ‘fait accompli’ and furthermore presented with ‘revised’ translations that were simply rephrasing what I had originally written or, worse still, using utterly incorrect and ungrammatical English. I am really rather appalled that a good 4 year relationship should come to this. My hands are tied, you are the ones with the ability to withhold the payment and I am really rather shocked at what you are suggesting. I attach my invoice which I have been holding back and sincerely hope that you will do the honourable thing and not slash half of my earnings for February.'
[Edited at 2010-03-04 12:16 GMT]
| | | | pcovs
Denmark
Local time: 09:20
English to Danish
Well, I guess I wouldn't have asked them to do the 'decent' thing and pay, because this is more a matter of what they 'must' do according to rules and regulations.
If you do not hear further to your email and invoice, I would not do anything else before time for payment. If the client then refuses to pay the full amount, I would find the law regulating this area and show the client exactly why they have waived their rights to do anything of the sort by not notifying you in due time ... See more Well, I guess I wouldn't have asked them to do the 'decent' thing and pay, because this is more a matter of what they 'must' do according to rules and regulations.
If you do not hear further to your email and invoice, I would not do anything else before time for payment. If the client then refuses to pay the full amount, I would find the law regulating this area and show the client exactly why they have waived their rights to do anything of the sort by not notifying you in due time (regulated and defined in 'Købeloven') and not giving you your rightful choice to opt for remedying the translation as a first course of action.
Good luck. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
PCovs wrote:
Well, I guess I wouldn't have asked them to do the 'decent' thing and pay, because this is more a matter of what they 'must' do according to rules and regulations.
If you do not hear further to your email and invoice, I would not do anything else before time for payment. If the client then refuses to pay the full amount, I would find the law regulating this area and show the client exactly why they have waived their rights to do anything of the sort by not notifying you in due time (regulated and defined in 'Købeloven') and not giving you your rightful choice to opt for remedying the translation as a first course of action.
Good luck.
Thank you so much PCovs (and others too). You've been a huge help.
| | | | Russell Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Italian to English
I had a remarkably similar experience with an Italian agency a few months ago, though in this case it was only my second job for them - the first and only time I have ever had my English questioned. I was only sent the "revised" version after submitting my end of month invoice, three weeks later.
If it weren't for the fact that so much abortive work had been put into their revised version, I would be tempted to think that this was a new strategy that agencies are suggesting to each other ... See more I had a remarkably similar experience with an Italian agency a few months ago, though in this case it was only my second job for them - the first and only time I have ever had my English questioned. I was only sent the "revised" version after submitting my end of month invoice, three weeks later.
If it weren't for the fact that so much abortive work had been put into their revised version, I would be tempted to think that this was a new strategy that agencies are suggesting to each other (there has been another similar case reported here recently).
My guess is that some non-native translator/reviewer, whom the agency trusted, felt it necessary to justify his or her position.
I wrote a very similar reply to yours, except that I mentioned ProZ.com (without explicitly mentioning the Blue Board).
I was paid on time and in full but clearly I shall not be working for them again.
As you clearly hope this is a one-off and that it does not ruin a long-standing relationship, I think the tone of your reply is judged very appropriately.
[Edited at 2010-03-04 12:54 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-04 12:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| lesson learned | Mar 4, 2010 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
There was no PO or contract.
In a professional working relationship between an agency and a freelance translator there will almost always be a PO stating the job number, description of the work, the language pair, price per word, delivery date etc.
The fact that there was no such PO makes it very difficult for you to take the matter to court or something. However, if an agency is not satisfied with your work they should always give you the opportunity to make corrections to it. They did not do this and decided to make the corrections on their own, so therefore you don't have to give them any discount. They should have contacted you before making the corrections themselves.
You should therefore demand getting paid for the job. If they refuse, perhaps you can contact the trade organisation of translation agencies in Denmark if there is one, and explain the matter to them.
But please learn this lesson: never work without a PO or other form of written agreement.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Russell for your kind thoughts. I hope my case is resolved as smoothly as yours was.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Rifraf wrote:
In a professional working relationship between an agency and a freelance translator there will almost always be a PO stating the job number, description of the work, the language pair, price per word, delivery date etc.
Thanks for yours Rifraf. I've been working as a freelance translator for 16 years and full-time for 13 and I have found that the number of agencies simply using order numbers rather than POs is massively on the rise. I do take your point but what to do with agencies who say that their e-mail and job number IS their PO? I know your answer don't accept the job! Fact is I probably became too trusting, never having had a problem with payment before (touch wood). It would be interesting to conduct a straw poll on ProZ and find out how many translators are working without POs...
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