| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Proofreading related work, should it be paid for? Thread poster: Nehad Hussein
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| Totally agree with that | Jul 14, 2014 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
your error; your responsibility to fix.
| | | | | Professionalism | Jul 14, 2014 |
It is not because there are people paid for cleaning the streets that you have to throw your garbage on the streets. It is "normal" to consider that a translation will always contain the odd mistake here and there but it is also unquestionable that if we have to work with the desire to hand in a perfect job in mind, and more so if we are told what the mistakes are!
| | | | Thayenga 
Germany
Local time: 02:31
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Anyway, the topic isn't up for discussion, surely: your error; your responsibility to fix.
Yes, Sheila, I agree. A mistake made by the translator must be fixed by the translator. Period.
| | | | | When all is said and done, you should read the instructions! | Jul 14, 2014 |
Tedious as they may be, you should always read the instructions and carefully not any that are not the same as your personal default.
This does take time, and in practice, when you work for a number of clients, you will have to check again for each one, at least briefly, every time. It is worth keeping a copy of their instructions with your notes quickly accessible if they promise more work.
It is all part of the service, so it has to be paid for, but it is a good idea ... See more Tedious as they may be, you should always read the instructions and carefully not any that are not the same as your personal default.
This does take time, and in practice, when you work for a number of clients, you will have to check again for each one, at least briefly, every time. It is worth keeping a copy of their instructions with your notes quickly accessible if they promise more work.
It is all part of the service, so it has to be paid for, but it is a good idea to have system for handling extra work like that as efficiently as possible.
It will save your sanity if you have many proofreading/editing jobs, and even if you are only doing 'traditional' monolingual proofreading, you still have to check for the client's preferred formatting or whatever.
I am not particularly fond of proofreading in general, but I set my rates to cover my time, and then work as efficiently as I can. It means I am more certain of finding errors and inconsistencies too.
This has the effect that some regular clients pay because they know what they are getting and are satisfied, while others run away fast looking for someone cheaper. My regular clients deliver texts that are of a high standard before I start, and once I begin, I usually enjoy the job anyway!
Clients must be aware that proofreading DOES take time, even when the text is faultless of nearly faultless. And business is business - why should you do it for free? ▲ Collapse
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Suzan Hamer
Netherlands
Local time: 02:31
English
+ ...
| Here's how I explain the difference between proofreading and editing: | Jul 14, 2014 |
Thayenga wrote: Most EU clients mean heavy editing by using the term "proofreading". This is particularly true for UK clients. The tendency is that this meaning of "proofreading" is rapidly spreading to the USA. [Edited at 2014-07-13 15:48 GMT] Of course the clients call everything proofreading. It's up to the LSP to explain the difference. And one difference is time. Just proofreading one document in one language takes less time than editing a document in 2 languages while proofreading it. And yes, it is possible to get the difference in both across.
"Briefly, proofreading is identifying and correcting typographical, spelling, and punctuation errors. Editing involves modifying a text to ensure that it is accurately written and makes sense to the reader. The basic distinction is that proofreading does not involve any rewriting of the text while editing does."
This is taken from my profile page, where I more thoroughly discuss MY take on the difference between proofreading and editing.
Naturally, as Thayenga wrote, editing and rewriting require much more time (and thought, skill and knowledge) than proofreading, and you should charge accordingly. I recommend asking to see a text before quoting a rate, so you can determine whether proofreading or editing is required (and, if editing, to what degree). Figure out how much time it should take you to produce a well-written text and charge for that time.
[Edited at 2014-07-14 10:18 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:31
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Why didn't you read more context before you put your comment? | Jul 14, 2014 |
Christophe Delaunay wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
your error; your responsibility to fix.
When you are assigned a job to finish 4000 words a day, and you are paid a translation only fee, and you are told that someone will edit your draft, my question for you:
1) Will you be able to create a copy that has no error at all? If you can, tell me how, so that I can learn something.
2) If the editor who work on our your file doesn't make any correction but points out various mistakes on your version, and the PM tells you "it is your error; your responsibility to fix", what will be your response?
[Edited at 2014-07-14 10:27 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-07-14 10:33 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:31
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| You seems to be an established translator but I'm supprized again with your response | Jul 14, 2014 |
Thayenga wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
Anyway, the topic isn't up for discussion, surely: your error; your responsibility to fix. Yes, Sheila, I agree. A mistake made by the translator must be fixed by the translator. Period.
When you are assigned a job to finish 4000 words a day, and you are paid a translation only fee, and you are told that someone will edit your draft, my question for you:
1) Will you able to create a copy that has no error at all? If you can, tell me how, so that I can learn something.
2) If the editor who work on our your file doesn't make any correction but points out various mistakes on your version, and the PM tells you "it is your error; your responsibility to fix", what will be your response?
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:31
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| It is an irrelevant and illogical metapher to use here | Jul 14, 2014 |
Christophe Delaunay wrote:
It is not because there are people paid for cleaning the streets that you have to throw your garbage on the streets.
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 02:31
French to English
| It's highly relevant | Jul 14, 2014 |
jyuan_us wrote: Christophe Delaunay wrote:
It is not because there are people paid for cleaning the streets that you have to throw your garbage on the streets. It is an irrelevant and illogical metapher to use here
No I would say it's a matter of common courtesy. If courtesy does not percolate through the business relationship it's not worth keeping up.
You made a mistake, you should clean it up rather than say that the cleaner (editor) can do it.
The PM took time to ask you to clean it up and you said it would be more efficient to ask the editor.
However it probably takes the same amount of time to hit "reply" to your delivery mail and say "please correct your mistakes" than than to transfer it on to the editor and say "BTW you need to correct the translator's mistakes".
As a former PM, I would be glad to have got rid of a translator who can't be bothered to read instructions and clean up his mistakes.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 02:31
French to English
| 4000 words a day?? | Jul 14, 2014 |
jyuan_us wrote: Christophe Delaunay wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
your error; your responsibility to fix. When you are assigned a job to finish 4000 words a day, and you are paid a translation only fee, and you are told that someone will edit your draft, my question for you: 1) Will you be able to create a copy that has no error at all? If you can, tell me how, so that I can learn something. 2) If the editor who work on our your file doesn't make any correction but points out various mistakes on your version, and the PM tells you "it is your error; your responsibility to fix", what will be your response? [Edited at 2014-07-14 10:27 GMT] [Edited at 2014-07-14 10:33 GMT]
I wouldn't accept a job if I weren't sure of being able to produce top-quality work. That means making sure I don't take on too many words. I would only be able to do 4000 words a day if it were boring instructions, and when I'm bored I don't pay enough attention, so I only take on stuff that interests me, and don't commit to more than 3,000 at most.
I make sure there are no errors by going over absolutely everything several times, reading it back to front and inside out, and having another person check my work too. I also insist on "next day delivery", so I have a night's sleep between draft and polish stages.
If a mistake does slip through, I check whether it is really an error (often it isn't in which case I'll provide evidence) then I correct it myself, and apologise profusely, and unilaterally deduct something from the bill or offer to do the next small job for free. I consider it the very least I can do to make up for the time the client had to waste on my error.
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:31
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I found that some people just didn't get my themes | Jul 15, 2014 |
Texte Style wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Christophe Delaunay wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
your error; your responsibility to fix. When you are assigned a job to finish 4000 words a day, and you are paid a translation only fee, and you are told that someone will edit your draft, my question for you: 1) Will you be able to create a copy that has no error at all? If you can, tell me how, so that I can learn something. 2) If the editor who work on our your file doesn't make any correction but points out various mistakes on your version, and the PM tells you "it is your error; your responsibility to fix", what will be your response? [Edited at 2014-07-14 10:27 GMT] [Edited at 2014-07-14 10:33 GMT] I wouldn't accept a job if I weren't sure of being able to produce top-quality work. That means making sure I don't take on too many words. I would only be able to do 4000 words a day if it were boring instructions, and when I'm bored I don't pay enough attention, so I only take on stuff that interests me, and don't commit to more than 3,000 at most. I make sure there are no errors by going over absolutely everything several times, reading it back to front and inside out, and having another person check my work too. I also insist on "next day delivery", so I have a night's sleep between draft and polish stages. If a mistake does slip through, I check whether it is really an error (often it isn't in which case I'll provide evidence) then I correct it myself, and apologise profusely, and unilaterally deduct something from the bill or offer to do the next small job for free. I consider it the very least I can do to make up for the time the client had to waste on my error.
So I will not discuss it any more after this.
My themes: 1.As a PM, you don't have to punish the translator by forcing him or her to correct the error you have found, particularly when a copy that requires 2 more steps (editing and proofreading) is involved. And if you do enjoy punishing somebody rather than use a more efficient solution, you are at the risk of losing your qualified linguists. This is a matter of attitudes and behavior in your project management work.
2. An error is already there, and it has to be corrected. A more efficient way should be used to correct it. When judging what is more efficient, everybody involved should be considered: you, the one who created the draft, and the linguist to edit the copy. All people involved constitute a whole team, and the waste of time of anybody in the team by going for the less efficient way is eventually a loss for everybody.
3. If you as a PM want to maintain a long term relationship with the linguists you value, sometime you have to be flexible, polite and accommodating.
I think the particular PM was poor in all these aspects and sooner or later, the linguists will all stop working for them and this would lead to her being fired.
If anybody doesn't understand these points, I will find his or her comments not worthwhile replying to, no matter what they want to say.
[Edited at 2014-07-15 00:35 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-07-15 02:26 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:31
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| This kind of comparison is meaningless | Jul 15, 2014 |
Texte Style wrote:
I make sure there are no errors by going over absolutely everything several times, reading it back to front and inside out, and having another person check my work too.
I always do that for job assignments which I'm required to translate, edit and proofread. This is common sense for anybody who wants to keep their clients for years or forever.
I think you should not have compared your case with mine, simply because we were talking about different services. Translation only, translation + editing, Translation + editing + proofreading are 3 different types of jobs, each of which requires different amount of time and is paid for differently. Talking about them together without distinguishing their major differences is meaningless.
[Edited at 2014-07-15 00:37 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-07-15 00:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-07-15 01:24 GMT]
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:31
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Correct me if I'm wrong | Jul 15, 2014 |
Texte Style wrote:
However it probably takes the same amount of time to hit "reply" to your delivery mail and say "please correct your mistakes" than than to transfer it on to the editor and say "BTW you need to correct the translator's mistakes".
So are you telling us when you were a PM, you only considered which was more efficient for yourself, instead of what is more efficient for the job itself, or for everybody involved including the linguists?
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:31
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| The behavior and attitude of 2 PMs. | Jul 15, 2014 |
Let me elaborate on the behavior of PM A and the possible behavior of PM B
PM A:
PM A's initial email to the translator:
Dear Translator,
I found that the dates were in the US format but it was required in our instructions to use the UK format. Can you change all of the dates to DD/MM/YYYY on the 10 files?
The Translator's reply:
I do apologize for not realizing this. However, as I have already delivered the files and ... See more Let me elaborate on the behavior of PM A and the possible behavior of PM B
PM A:
PM A's initial email to the translator:
Dear Translator,
I found that the dates were in the US format but it was required in our instructions to use the UK format. Can you change all of the dates to DD/MM/YYYY on the 10 files?
The Translator's reply:
I do apologize for not realizing this. However, as I have already delivered the files and moved on to other projects, can you kindly ask your editor to change the date format? It will take him 5 extra minutes to correct these dates when he reads along the lines. If I have to correct them I have read all of the files all over again, and these date are not easy to search on Word, so it will take me 20 minutes.
PM A's second letter:
No. I cannot ask my editor to correct your error (What the hell is the editor's job then? My goodness!). It is your error and you have to fix it. Period.
The translator's reply:
OK, I will do it, but please don't send me any jobs from now on. I will not work with any PM who doesn't have a least degree of flexibility. Hell with your period. Let's put a period to our collaboration. OK?
Thereafter, the company missed various deadlines set by their clients, because the translator refused to work for this company anymore. The boss or HR of the company had to spend a lot of time looking for new translators, which are very hard to find for the language pair and subject matter.
_____________________________________________________
PM B.
PM B's initial email to the translator:
Dear Translator,
I found that the dates were in the US format but it was required in our instructions to use the UK format. Can you change all of the dates to DD/MM/YYYY on the 10 files?
The Translator's reply:
I do apologize for not realizing this. However, as I have already delivered the files and moved on to other projects, can you kindly ask your editor to change the date format? It will take him 5 extra minutes to correct these dates when he reads along the lines. If I have to correct them I have read all of the files all over again, and these date are not easy to search on Word, so it will take me 20 minutes.
PM B's second letter:
Well, I understand and I think that makes perfect sense. I will ask my editor to correct these dates but please do remember that the UK time format is always required for this client.
The translator's reply:
Thank you very much for forgiving me and for your flexibility. I'll be more than happy to check his corrections if necessary.
Thereafter, collaboration between the company and the translator went on as well as before. Their end clients were happy and more projects were pouring themselves into the company.
..............................................................
I think PM B's attitude and behavior led to a win-win situation.
In the scenario of PM A, the company was at a loss because of PM A's behavior, and if she doesn't want to make a change in her style, it will be harmful to the company, which will eventually lead to her own loss.
I outsourced a lot of jobs and my company may need to hire PMs soon in the future. I would not use the PM A type of persons, simply because they are not nice and flexible. As a potential boss I would think not being nice and flexible is not acceptable for my translation business. Her not being nice and her being rigid will be harmful to the hard-established relationship between me and my linguistic team. That is horrible.
[Edited at 2014-07-15 01:30 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-07-15 03:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 02:31
French to English
jyuan_us wrote: Texte Style wrote:
I make sure there are no errors by going over absolutely everything several times, reading it back to front and inside out, and having another person check my work too.
I always do that for job assignments which I'm required to translate, edit and proofread. This is common sense for anybody who wants to keep their clients for years or forever. I think you should not have compared your case with mine, simply because we were talking about different services. Translation only, translation + editing, Translation + editing + proofreading are 3 different types of jobs, each of which requires different amount of time and is paid for differently. Talking about them together without distinguishing their major differences is meaningless. [Edited at 2014-07-15 00:37 GMT] [Edited at 2014-07-15 00:45 GMT] [Edited at 2014-07-15 01:24 GMT]
I was explaining how I managed to (mostly) provide error-free translation, in answer to your question. This is how I provide a translation. When I know the client is going to have a competent person check my work, and when that person will be liaising with me to deal with any questions, I may forego the second pair of eyes stage, and they get a discount accordingly.
As a lone translator, I don't usually accept projects involving more than one step in the translation process.
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