| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Non-Payment Thread poster: KALATranslation
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I recently did a translation for a woman who had a good history on Proz. It was a translation of around 60,000 words and we agreed on an amount of €2,200 to be paid 30 days after submission of the translation. I translated the first 30 pages and sent it to her so she could ask her client to read over it and we could iron out any issues. This never came back to me so she said she assumed all was well and to continue with the translation. I finished the project 3 weeks in advance of the deadline... See more I recently did a translation for a woman who had a good history on Proz. It was a translation of around 60,000 words and we agreed on an amount of €2,200 to be paid 30 days after submission of the translation. I translated the first 30 pages and sent it to her so she could ask her client to read over it and we could iron out any issues. This never came back to me so she said she assumed all was well and to continue with the translation. I finished the project 3 weeks in advance of the deadline and submitted it to her. Within those three weeks she gave me additional work to complete for the project bringing the total to €2,423. After a couple of weeks I heard back from the my client who said that her client had some issues with the translation and would send the file back with comments. My client ended up putting me in direct contact with her client as she was taken ill, so I communicated with him and he said yes there were some issues and he was a bit disappointed but there was no sign of any drastic, inexcusable errors made on my behalf. I made the changes and over the next few weeks we exchanged emails to rectify all the changes he wanted made. Towards the end of this process, my client transferred over €1000 and told me I would receive the rest when her client was happy.
A few weeks ago she emailed to say that the client was finally satisfied with the work but that for all the disappointment and time that it took to finally get the project finished she would only pay me another €500. This is €923 less than what we agreed, and at no stage throughout the process did we discuss money being deducted from the total if changes needed to be made. I even completed another translation (towards the same project) for her client for free, normally worth around €90, as a courtesy for the mistakes.
She is based in Spain and I in the UK and I am wondering what next steps I can take. A lawyer has advised me that I may be able to take her to the Small Claims Court in the UK, however this will cost a few hundred pounds as I will have to have all documents translated into Spanish as well as paying the court costs. I believe that, despite there being some mistakes in my translation, there is no way I should be deducted 40% of my wage for this project. I did all that was asked of me and the client has confirmed that he is happy with the work now. I also gave both clients ample opportunity to change translator or flag up any problems. I would also argue that the client would not have asked me to complete a further translation towards the end of the project (the one I completed as a courtesy) if he was thoroughly disappointed in my work.
Please help!! It seems that this job has almost no security for freelance translators losing money at the mercy of outsourcers... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:40
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| SMall claims | Sep 15, 2014 |
Kirsty Adams wrote:
..... A lawyer has advised me that I may be able to take her to the Small Claims Court in the UK, however this will cost a few hundred pounds as I will have to have all documents translated into Spanish as well as paying the court costs. ...
Not only that: the Small Claims Court in the UK is notorious for the fact that even on conviction many people simply don't pay their fines and are not pursued.
I hate to read these stories about colleagues not being paid, or being underpaid.
I suggest that a better way might be to make contact with a Spanish lawyer based in the same town as your client and get this lawyer to write a warning letter. That usually does the trick, especially if it's clear from your attitude that you intend going through to the end and obtaining full payment plus compensation and interest.
I'm sure there are lots of Spanish colleagues in these forums who would be able to help you by suggesting suitable lawyers. You could contact them in private so that you can exchange names and addresses.
Good luck!
| | | | Paulinho Fonseca 
Brazil
Local time: 20:40
Member (2011)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Kirsty,
how about her bb records? You can created one a add this event.
And this below is not right.
'and told me I would receive the rest when her client
was happy.'
How can that be? She was not doing business with you.
Good luck.
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but such huge projects should be split ("different baskets..."). You send 10 pages - you get money for these 10 pages. If you see the client for the first time in your life, of course.
This is a rule of thumbs. And this is a costly lesson, actually.
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| Totally agree with Vadim! | Sep 15, 2014 |
Vadim Kadyrov wrote:
but such huge projects should be split ("different baskets..."). You send 10 pages - you get money for these 10 pages. If you see the client for the first time in your life, of course.
This is a rule of thumbs. And this is a costly lesson, actually.
And my advice, don't sell yourself so cheap: 0.036€/word! You will make yourself a favor and also to all of us, fellow translators!
As for your money, have a look there: http://www.elcobradordelfrac.com ...you might find what you're looking for. I've lived 18 years in Spain and companies sure hate to have one of these guys come to their offices!
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I totally agree with Vadim and Christophe and also think your translation was much to cheap anyway.
I'd tell the woman who still ows you more than 900 € that if she does not pay you within 5 days you will make a very bad blue board entry explaining shortly what has happened on proz.
[Modifié le 2014-09-15 15:35 GMT]
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 19:40
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Always collect at least 50% in advance | Sep 15, 2014 |
especially from private (non corporate) clients. Most agencies also do this.
[Edited at 2014-09-15 15:45 GMT]
| | | | ipv
Local time: 01:40
Member (2015)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Andrea Halbritter wrote:
I totally agree with Vadim and Christophe and also think your translation was much to cheap anyway.
I'd tell the woman who still ows you more than 900 € that if she does not pay you within 5 days you will make a very bad blue board entry explaining shortly what has happened on proz.
[Modifié le 2014-09-15 15:35 GMT]
Though I'd create a bad BB entry right away!
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| Agencies vs. file pushers | Sep 15, 2014 |
This story just shows the difference between real agencies and kitchen-table file pushers.
A real agency (or we can call it a responsible, professional outsourcer):
- has QA procedures in place that includes editing/proofing before sending the translation to the end client
- is clear about outsourcing Rule#1: they pay you what they agreed to pay at the agreed time regardless of when, how much or whether their client is paying them
This "agency" does not meet any of... See more This story just shows the difference between real agencies and kitchen-table file pushers.
A real agency (or we can call it a responsible, professional outsourcer):
- has QA procedures in place that includes editing/proofing before sending the translation to the end client
- is clear about outsourcing Rule#1: they pay you what they agreed to pay at the agreed time regardless of when, how much or whether their client is paying them
This "agency" does not meet any of these basic criteria. They sent your file to the end client untouched, apparently without telling the client that the file is unedited (mistake on their part in managing client expectations), and then passed the blame on you.
My question to the agency would be: On what basis would they deduct anything from your fees, when they had no extra expense related to this job?
They did not hire a proofreader, did not incur any extra costs due to your "mistakes", did not even spend time on coordinating communication, as they put you in direct touch with the end client and you did everything they asked for no extra payment.
If they decide to give the end client a discount, that is their business, that should be covered by their own marketing budget. The agreement between you and them does not change, they are still obligated to pay what was on the PO.
I do hope you got a PO...
Another thing to keep in mind is that you need to clarify quality assurance procedures when you start working with a new client. That includes clear description of what happens in the case of quality problems arising, especially from the end client's side. That way expectations are clear on both sides.
Katalin ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 00:40
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| My advice: step back and educate yourself | Sep 15, 2014 |
Kirsty Adams wrote:
It was a translation of around 60,000 words and we agreed on an amount of €2,200
With that statement you are firmly placing yourself in the sweat-shop market for translations. It's a market with absolutely no respect for translators; where outsourcers ask for the earth and pay peanuts. If you choose to be there, you choose to be treated like dirt. I'm sorry if that's harsh but it's reality. If someone is charging €0.06 per word then they're in danger, but I know that sometimes translators with family commitments just have to keep jobs coming in to put food on the table. By working for just half that very low rate you're clearly saying that you value volume way more than quality. Because of that, you will attract totally unprofessional agencies, and repel the better clients.
A few weeks ago she emailed to say that the client was finally satisfied with the work but that for all the disappointment and time that it took to finally get the project finished she would only pay me another €500. This is €923 less than what we agreed.
So the end client is happy, and presumably the end client has paid in full. But she has unilaterally decided not to pay you in full. Typical!
She is based in Spain and I in the UK and I am wondering what next steps I can take. A lawyer has advised me that I may be able to take her to the Small Claims Court in the UK
I can't imagine why your lawyer said that. AFAIK (though I'm no lawyer) there's no way you can sue a Spanish company in the UK courts. However, you can sue them using the special simplified EU court procedures. Nothing has to be translated (you choose from a list of languages) and it isn't costly. Mind you, I've heard that it can be a very lengthy process. When I entered into it, I prepared a European Order for Payment (Google it) and printed it, for free. I sent it to my client and he paid immediately, clearly sensing that I was serious about chasing payment.
I really do think you would do well to take a step back and think about your service offer, Kirsty. It's particularly worrying that with so little knowledge of the industry you are actually setting yourself up as an outsourcer. That's only going to compound your own problems and cause loss to others. At the moment you're playing right into the hands of those who look for the most vulnerable members of the profession. Although there's never a 100% guarantee that we'll be paid without a fight, most of the time we can avoid problems by following these guidelines:
- only undertake jobs that you can do really, really well: limit subject areas and target language(s) to the ones where you truly excel, and don't take on work unless you have time to research terms etc.
- insist on quality rates and terms for quality work; remember YOU state the terms, not the client
- be wary of unknown clients and perform risk limitation procedures, which will include limiting first jobs to relatively small ones, or at least staged payments
- know who you are working with (you only had one client), and develop a mindset where you aren't a subordinate or employee (no wages) but a business partner.
Loads of the information you need is here on ProZ.com in articles, Wikis, the site guidance centre, the scam centre, training sessions and of course on the forums. And your local Chamber of Commerce probably organises courses on running a small business that provides B2B services.
| | | | liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:40
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
| Tom in London | Sep 16, 2014 |
I think you have given the best advice here Tom, and Kirsty should contact a lawyer in the Spanish town in question.
Also, Kirsty needs to re-assess her rate and charge a higher one, and work with more professional clients, with a good history.
I hope you get your money Kirsty!
Liz
| | | | | Have you tried contacting a debt collector? | Sep 17, 2014 |
I think that's what I would do if I were you.
I have never used this kind of services before but a debt collector I know told me he charged 10% of the collected amount and you pay nothing if he doesn' manage to collect it.
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| And listen to Sheila | Sep 17, 2014 |
And listen to Sheila for your future projects.
I had this kind of problems once when I started up, and it was Sheila advice that has been the most useful for me. Even though this specific case didn't end well, I have never had to face this kind of problems again and I have learned to respect myself and our profession much more than I did.
Thank you again Sheila, you really saved my career.
| | | | Hannah Doyle
France
Local time: 01:40
French to English
+ ...
Kirsty Adams wrote:
I recently did a translation for a woman who had a good history on Proz. It was a translation of around 60,000 words and we agreed on an amount of €2,200 to be paid 30 days after submission of the translation. I translated the first 30 pages and sent it to her so she could ask her client to read over it and we could iron out any issues. This never came back to me so she said she assumed all was well and to continue with the translation. I finished the project 3 weeks in advance of the deadline and submitted it to her. Within those three weeks she gave me additional work to complete for the project bringing the total to €2,423. After a couple of weeks I heard back from the my client who said that her client had some issues with the translation and would send the file back with comments. My client ended up putting me in direct contact with her client as she was taken ill, so I communicated with him and he said yes there were some issues and he was a bit disappointed but there was no sign of any drastic, inexcusable errors made on my behalf. I made the changes and over the next few weeks we exchanged emails to rectify all the changes he wanted made. Towards the end of this process, my client transferred over €1000 and told me I would receive the rest when her client was happy.
A few weeks ago she emailed to say that the client was finally satisfied with the work but that for all the disappointment and time that it took to finally get the project finished she would only pay me another €500. This is €923 less than what we agreed, and at no stage throughout the process did we discuss money being deducted from the total if changes needed to be made. I even completed another translation (towards the same project) for her client for free, normally worth around €90, as a courtesy for the mistakes.
She is based in Spain and I in the UK and I am wondering what next steps I can take. A lawyer has advised me that I may be able to take her to the Small Claims Court in the UK, however this will cost a few hundred pounds as I will have to have all documents translated into Spanish as well as paying the court costs. I believe that, despite there being some mistakes in my translation, there is no way I should be deducted 40% of my wage for this project. I did all that was asked of me and the client has confirmed that he is happy with the work now. I also gave both clients ample opportunity to change translator or flag up any problems. I would also argue that the client would not have asked me to complete a further translation towards the end of the project (the one I completed as a courtesy) if he was thoroughly disappointed in my work.
Please help!! It seems that this job has almost no security for freelance translators losing money at the mercy of outsourcers...
Kirsty, have you just started working as a translator?
I ask because as others have pointed out, your rate is very, very low. And then to top it all off, you work for free to make up for the 'disappointment' that apparently wasn't enough to stop them from asking you to do more work.
I remember when I started out, I ran into issues like this and can only assume the problem you are experiencing now stems from a similar source: you're scared there isn't enough work, and although €2,200 is technically an extremely low price for that volume, the bottom line is this month's salary would have been €2,200, which is great. Learn from this experience though, push your rates up, and the next time you are given such a huge project make sure you submit 20% of it and have it approved by the client *and paid for* before you continue - especially if it's a new client.
For now though, I suggest you write an extremely formal letter, using as much legalese as you can cram in. Print it out on headed paper and send it to your client by registered post with proof of receipt. In your letter, make sure you include (underline if necessary):
a) the outstanding amount you are expecting to receive,
b) the date by which you expect to receive it.
Make it formal and confident. No pleading or reasoning. Simply: we agreed this amount. You were given the opportunity to check my work. You did not take that opportunity. You have not paid. I expect X payment by X. If you don't reply, I will be pursuing matters furthers, etc etc etc.
This is the first step. See how it goes.
Good luck!
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 00:40
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Great to hear it, Khwansuree | Sep 17, 2014 |
Khwansuree DEROLLEPOT wrote:
I have learned to respect myself and our profession much more than I did.
That's certainly the way to go! We all make mistakes at the start, but if you can learn from them, you can grow from them. I'm pleased I was able to help in that learning process.
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