| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Effect on translators of upcoming changes to EU VAT laws? Thread poster: JRM (X)
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Samuel Murray wrote: Tom in London wrote:
Moreover, as a UK taxpayer, all of my invoicing is in the English language. I find it hard to envisage a situation in which invoices would have to be in both English and in the other language of the country whose VAT rate would be applicable. If this applies to you, you'd probably be using the MOSS facility, which means that although you'll be charging VAT according to the rate in the customer's country of residence, you'd be paying it in your own country. You are free, of course, to register for VAT in some or all of your customers' countries, if you really, really want to, but the MOSS makes that unnecessary.
I don't know about this MOSS thing, which only seems to apply to broadcasting, telecommunications, and e-services (which I don't think include translations).
Because my income does not reach the level required for VAT registration in the UK (currently £85,000) I'm hoping that this leaves me outside all the other provisions applying to VAT. After all, isn't the whole point of setting those levels to simplify matters for small businesses and individuals, such as translators?
However I'm still looking into it. It's important to get these things right! If I get any more information I'll post it here.
[Edited at 2014-09-17 16:27 GMT]
| | | | JRM (X) 
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks for the responses | Sep 18, 2014 |
Thanks to everyone for their responses so far on this thread. All your contributions have pretty much confirmed my understanding of the position, but as you say Tom, it's important to get these things right.
@2G Trad: As for the threshold applicable in Italy, I seem to recall receiving mixed advice from different tax professionals on this issue when I lived in Italy. In particular, one told me you had to register from first euro, whilst another said you could earn as much as €5000... See more Thanks to everyone for their responses so far on this thread. All your contributions have pretty much confirmed my understanding of the position, but as you say Tom, it's important to get these things right.
@2G Trad: As for the threshold applicable in Italy, I seem to recall receiving mixed advice from different tax professionals on this issue when I lived in Italy. In particular, one told me you had to register from first euro, whilst another said you could earn as much as €5000 from each committente before the activity would be considered regolare and continuativa. Indeed, it is precisely this lack of clarity on the application of tax laws in a number of EU jurisdictions (Italy being a prime example) and the inability to get clear-cut answers from the relevant professionals that makes me anxious to ensure I can (within the boundaries of the law) avoid having to deal with their respective tax authorities. That is a consideration apart from the difficulty of having to take into account variances in VAT rates/thresholds between jurisdictions. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Not only Italy | Sep 18, 2014 |
John Mifsud wrote:
..... it is precisely this lack of clarity on the application of tax laws in a number of EU jurisdictions (Italy being a prime example) and the inability to get clear-cut answers from the relevant professionals that makes me anxious to ensure I can (within the boundaries of the law) avoid having to deal with their respective tax authorities.....
Having spent about an hour last night going from one section to another of the HMRC website (Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs) I can report that getting a clear answer is just as difficult in the UK as it is anywhere else.
| | | | JRM (X)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Point taken Tom.
Though, in fairness, we are seeking clarification on the application of a law not yet in force, whereas I was referring to the lack of clear guidance on Italian laws in force for years.
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2GT
Italy
Local time: 02:50
English to Italian
+ ...
| Law clarity vs. law interpretation | Sep 18, 2014 |
John Mifsud:
@2G Trad: As for the threshold applicable in Italy, I seem to recall receiving mixed advice from different tax professionals on this issue when I lived in Italy. In particular, one told me you had to register from first euro, whilst another said you could earn as much as €5000 from each committente before the activity would be considered regolare and continuativa. Indeed, it is precisely this lack of clarity on the application of tax laws in a number of EU jurisdictions (Italy being a prime example)
The law is clear.
The interpretation of law is subjective, thus unclear.
As for your direct experience, your first tax professional read/knew the relevant law and advised you correctly. The second one just mixed tax dues with social security dues and another couple of laws related to self-employed.
Cheers
Gianni
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I have now had confirmation from my accountant that since my income does not reach the UK threshold and I am not registered for VAT, none of the changing rules relating to VAT are applicable to me.
Simple!
However, that confirmation is on the basis of his knowledge of my exact situation. I cannot speak for others.
| | | | | Poor reply from your accountant | Sep 18, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
I have now had confirmation from my accountant that since my income does not reach the UK threshold and I am not registered for VAT, none of the changing rules relating to VAT are applicable to me.
How strange that your accountant tells you that it's because of your VAT exemption in the UK that you are not concerned, and not because you are not delivering the type of electronic services the change concerns.
If you were indeed selling e-books, video-on-demand, broadcasting services, etc., then VAT would be due in Spain for a Spanish customer for example, and I don't see how your UK VAT exemption should have any impact on the Spanish VAT due in Spain, as the Spanish VAT has nothing to do with UK VAT.
Long experience has taught me that just because someone calls himself qualified in something, it doesn't mean everything he does or says is correct.
It sounds to me as if your accountant couldn't really be bothered to look into it.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Thomas Frost wrote: Tom in London wrote:
I have now had confirmation from my accountant that since my income does not reach the UK threshold and I am not registered for VAT, none of the changing rules relating to VAT are applicable to me.
How strange that your accountant tells you that it's because of your VAT exemption in the UK that you are not concerned, and not because you are not delivering the type of electronic services the change concerns. If you were indeed selling e-books, video-on-demand, broadcasting services, etc., then VAT would be due in Spain for a Spanish customer for example, and I don't see how your UK VAT exemption should have any impact on the Spanish VAT due in Spain, as the Spanish VAT has nothing to do with UK VAT. Long experience has taught me that just because someone calls himself qualified in something, it doesn't mean everything he does or says is correct. It sounds to me as if your accountant couldn't really be bothered to look into it.
You don't know anything about me, or him ! And I don't know anything about you.
[Edited at 2014-09-18 14:29 GMT]
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| Nobody is perfect | Sep 18, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
You don't know anything about me, or him ! And I don't know anything about you.
I don't say that you should just take the word for it from someone in a forum, but if you look it up in official explanations, as others have done, then it's a better source than an accountant. An accountant is not an infallible god; he or she can be mistaken just as anyone else.
The answer is very clear, that only services with no individual human intervention are concerned. That's the real reason we're not concerned. That's what your accountant should have told you.
In any case, whatever the reason you prefer to believe, translators are not concerned, VAT exempt or not.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
You're making too many assumptions. You don't know everything my accountant told me. Only what I have mentioned here.
[Edited at 2014-09-18 15:07 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Thomas Frost wrote:
If you were indeed selling e-books, video-on-demand, broadcasting services, etc., then VAT would be due in Spain for a Spanish customer for example...
Would VAT also be due in Spain if the seller is a non-business entity (e.g. a private individual)?
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
2G Trad wrote:
The law is clear. The interpretation of law is subjective, thus unclear.
I find that very interesting 
[[ deep in thought ]]
[Edited at 2014-09-18 14:51 GMT]
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| Electronic services | Sep 18, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Thomas Frost wrote:
If you were indeed selling e-books, video-on-demand, broadcasting services, etc., then VAT would be due in Spain for a Spanish customer for example... Would VAT also be due in Spain if the seller is a non-business entity (e.g. a private individual)?
That's a bit like asking if rain will make you wet if you're outside on a dry day. If someone is selling services to someone else, then that someone is by definition acting as a business entity, not as a private individual. A private individual can of course sell his or her used household items without its becoming a professional activity, but that is something entirely different.
About the VAT question itself, the best thing is to go directly to the consolidated VAT Directive at
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2006L0112:20110101:EN:PDF
There is an Annex listing typical examples of what is meant by electronically supplied services.
ANNEX II
▼M3
INDICATIVE LIST OF THE ELECTRONICALLY SUPPLIED SERVICES
REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 58 AND POINT (K) OF THE FIRST
PARAGRAPH OF ARTICLE 59
▼B
(1) Website supply, web-hosting, distance maintenance of programmes and
equipment;
(2) supply of software and updating thereof;
(3) supply of images, text and information and making available of databases;
(4) supply of music, films and games, including games of chance and gambling
games, and of political, cultural, artistic, sporting, scientific and entertainment
broadcasts and events;
(5) supply of distance teaching.
They are all services for which no individual work takes place for each delivery.
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 19:50
German to English
Tom,
As I wrote earlier, this whole thing has no bearing whatsoever on the provision of translation services, and nobody really needs to speak to their accountant about that: it’s all there in black and white in the European Commission document. The whole issue is a red herring.
The statement from your accountant that "since my income does not reach the UK threshold and I am not registered for VAT, none of the changing rules relating to VAT are applicable to me” is ... See more Tom,
As I wrote earlier, this whole thing has no bearing whatsoever on the provision of translation services, and nobody really needs to speak to their accountant about that: it’s all there in black and white in the European Commission document. The whole issue is a red herring.
The statement from your accountant that "since my income does not reach the UK threshold and I am not registered for VAT, none of the changing rules relating to VAT are applicable to me” is a bit of a circular argument, because if you’re not registered for VAT, no changes in the way VAT is charged are going to affect you, period. The fact is that the change in the rules wouldn’t apply to you even if you were registered for VAT. Unless of course you’re into broadcasting, telco services and mass market, automated e-commerce offerings.
Simples!
Robin ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
.... if you’re not registered for VAT, no changes in the way VAT is charged are going to affect you....
[/quote]
That's exactly what I said. Well done.
@ John Mifsud
Thanks for raising the matter anyway. It's always good to check these things. I hope this discussion has answered the question you asked.
[Edited at 2014-09-18 15:21 GMT]
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