| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Another very bad work offer received today, from an agency based in the UK Thread poster: Tom in London
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| approx. 0.11$ per word from Italian agencies for Italian to English? | Dec 20, 2014 |
I am really surprised to hear that, your pair is not "rare", and Italy (like Spain) is not a country in which one can obtain high rates.
Well good for you, but I am very very surprised, or I missed something?
Moreover I agree with Robert and DS trans.
My 2 cents
[Edited at 2014-12-20 11:10 GMT]
| | | | Neil Coffey 
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:28
French to English
+ ...
| Devil is in the detail | Dec 20, 2014 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
Like DS Trans and finnword, I also find myself wondering what is particularly offensive about this offer.
o I too am puzzled here....
[/quote]
If I understand, the thing that Tom is objecting to is more the way of working-- if there's a maximum rate that the agency can pay, then why waste everybody's time by not just stating that upfront rather than getting into a whole e-mail exchange first.
As to whether £70/1000 words is terrible or not really just depends on the specific job. If it's a literary translation for which 1000 words is an entire day's work then you're essentially doing it out of love. If it's churning out some boilerplate administrative documents that you can happily do 5,000-6,000 words/day on, then it's probably about as good as it gets for agency work. So it really just depends...
[Edited at 2014-12-20 10:44 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:28
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Neil Coffey wrote:
....... the thing that Tom is objecting to is more the way of working--
The rate (equivalent to Euro 0.089/word) is too low for me to work, especially since the text is not on matters that particularly interest me.
Some months ago I did in fact accept an even lower rate than that, but only because (a) the text dealt with matters that particularly interest me even though it was extremely difficult and (b) I agreed a very long deadline that left me free to take on other jobs at my normal rate. But I could not normally accept to work for that rate.
But the other really off-putting factor, which I did mention in my original post, is the proof-reader threat.
[Edited at 2014-12-20 14:58 GMT]
PS it's interesting to see who agrees that I was right to refuse this job, and the others who think the rate offered is acceptable.
[Edited at 2014-12-20 18:02 GMT]
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Tom in London wrote:
PS it's interesting to see who agrees that I was right to refuse this job, and the others who think the rate offered is acceptable.
However no secret for me as my rates are displayed in my profle page BUT, I would never accept to be paid at 90 days (like stated in my profle page).
[Edited at 2014-12-20 17:17 GMT]
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 02:28
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Keeping it real | Dec 20, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
PS it's interesting to see who agrees that I was right to refuse this job, and the others who think the rate offered is acceptable.
[Edited at 2014-12-20 18:02 GMT]
I've explained why I don't find such a rate objectionable in my previous post. What I essentially said there is that per-word rate (though obviously important) weighs less in my mind than how much I can earn per hour and per day on a given project.
Each freelancer has every right to impose his or her own criteria as regards all work conditions, including rates. Personally, I tend to support freelancers who set their standards higher rather than lower, because when a critical mass of established and accomplished translators do this, it raises the profile of the profession.
At the same time, ignoring real market factors, including the presence of sizeable numbers of qualified translators in one's language pair willing to work for lower-end rates, can lead one down a narrow road to a very dark place.
In the end, each translator has to determine what works best. If only accepting projects at a certain pre-determined per-word rate, involving texts that are of high intrinsic interest, and allowing ample time for a zen-like contemplation of each carefully crafted sentence works for a given freelancer--fantastic! I have no objection.
But if such an approach proves to yield less than satisfactory results, then one had best examine alternatives--or risk perishing within a highly competitive market.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:28
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Robert Forstag wrote:
......or risk perishing within a highly competitive market.
I don't believe in blind, uncontrollable market forces. Markets are man-made. Many factors influence markets. So far as the market for translations is concerned, many factors come into play, of which IMHO the most important is quality - not price. I focus on quality. That's why I keep getting work. Not because I'm cheap.
There's also a market in dental treatment. Would you go to the cheapest dentist, or would you go to the best one? Would you be willing to pay more?
[Edited at 2014-12-20 19:59 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:28
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| That's not a convincing analogy | Dec 20, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
There's also a market in dental treatment. Would you go to the cheapest dentist, or would you go to the best one? Would you be willing to pay more?
Tom, a simple question. Do you go to the best dentist in the world and if not, why not?
The dental market is no more homogenous than translation. Dentistry encompasses a whole range of services from the minimum-cost option for those on socialised medical plans to cosmetic work for celebrities in Beverly Hills that presumably cost tens of thousands of dollars.
That diversity exists because budget matters. Most customers have constraints on what they can spend on dental services.
Translation is no different. There is no one product and there is no one rate. Each job occupies a position on a some multi-dimensional continuum determined by the language pair, the complexity, the degree of specialisation, the urgency of the job, the required degree of accuracy and so on.
To insist that only the most expensive translation is "real" translation would be tantamount to insisting that the only true dentists are those charging their clients thousands of dollars per appointment. Do we really believe that is the case?
Dan
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:28
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
My point is that we translators are not helpless victims of market forces. We are actors.
[Edited at 2014-12-20 22:58 GMT]
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Russell Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:28
Italian to English
| Proofreaders | Dec 20, 2014 |
My experience has led me to have the highest respect for clients who use proofreaders to check my work, since I don't work with a colleague who can do that for me.
I have only had two bad experiences in this respect and, naturally, the people concerned are no longer my clients.
I have used some of the proofreaders' comments about my work in my CV and profile.
We can't expect every client or agency to have the ability to evaluate our work and it demonstrates a commitment to qual... See more My experience has led me to have the highest respect for clients who use proofreaders to check my work, since I don't work with a colleague who can do that for me.
I have only had two bad experiences in this respect and, naturally, the people concerned are no longer my clients.
I have used some of the proofreaders' comments about my work in my CV and profile.
We can't expect every client or agency to have the ability to evaluate our work and it demonstrates a commitment to quality and service to the end customer.
If we are confident about the quality of our work, we should have nothing to fear from good proofreaders.
[Edited at 2014-12-21 19:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | DS Trans
United States
Local time: 02:28
French to English
+ ...
| Ideal world vs. real world | Dec 21, 2014 |
I don't think anyone was criticizing you for not accepting to work for this rate. The rate that you accept is absolutely up to you.
I'm the first one to think that the work of translators is undervalued, and acknowledge that extremely low offers are rampant. It's a huge problem. In my ideal world, I'd also be writing indignant messages to people sending me offers of $0.11/word. But in my real world, this rate does not begin to represent the really bad offers I have regularly rec... See more I don't think anyone was criticizing you for not accepting to work for this rate. The rate that you accept is absolutely up to you.
I'm the first one to think that the work of translators is undervalued, and acknowledge that extremely low offers are rampant. It's a huge problem. In my ideal world, I'd also be writing indignant messages to people sending me offers of $0.11/word. But in my real world, this rate does not begin to represent the really bad offers I have regularly received in this pair, so your post left me scratching my head.
The analogy that comes to mind is kind of backwards--I could be indignant that someone is selling their Manhattan apartment for $750,000. But what would be the point since the guy upstairs is selling his for $2 million? Basically, the whole market is messed up. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 02:28
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| It is not a threat | Dec 21, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
But the other really off-putting factor, which I did mention in my original post, is the proof-reader threat.
I don't think they were threatening you by mentioning a proofreader would be involved. It is normal practice for a serious translation agency to get 2 or even 3 linguists involved, one after another.
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 08:28
Danish to English
+ ...
| Why feel threatened by a proof-reader? | Dec 21, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
But the other really off-putting factor, which I did mention in my original post, is the proof-reader threat.
I worked full-time as a translator for 10 years before anyone ever proof-read any of my work, unless I specifically asked for this, i.e. if I was translating within a field where I did not feel certain of my own competences.
Then I went self-employed, and my biggest client (my former employer) launched a new QA process, which involved proof-reading of most of my work. At first, I was livid and felt utterly insulted, because I knew that I had long since proved that I was capable of delivering 'complete' translations. For the first couple of months, I charged extra for the additional time I spent checking the proof-reader's comments, but after a while (and after I had made it clear to the client that I was not happy with one particular proof-reader), I accepted that with a good proof-reader, this final check of my work actually only led to improvements.
Now, I feel that I have an excellent cooperation with both the client and 'my' proof-reader, whom I know to be an excellent translator (I used to proof-read HIS translations), and I know that anything he suggests is worth considering. I am free to accept or reject any changes he proposes, and I have discovered that (perish the thought, Tom, I know) even I can still learn and improve.
A good proof-reader is nothing to fear. 
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:28
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
A good proof-reader is nothing to fear.
All of my translations are proof-read (of course!) by the agencies that commission them. Occasionally they query a word here and there, but it's never anything major. They don't make a song and dance about paying me less on the grounds that proof-reading is an additional cost for them. Proof-reading is built into their systems.
However my main point is that in the translation market, translators should behave as actors, not victims.
[Edited at 2014-12-21 09:14 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:28
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Only up to a point | Dec 21, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
My point is that we translators are not helpless victims of market forces. We are actors.
While I'm not quite sure how we got here from your previous "only quality matters" argument, I do think that is a very healthy attitude to have. I agree; we are actors and our decisions and the way we execute them matter enormously.
However, if the market is in a funk, your options are limited. If the Italian economy goes into a massive recession, the negative effects will be felt in all areas of commerce, excluding perhaps bankruptcy lawyers. Conversely, if the Italian economy were to undergo a renaissance then almost everybody would benefit. A rising tide lifts all ships.
We can mitigate the effects of the wider market, but few if any actors will be completely insulated from the influence of fluctuations.
Dan
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Tom in London wrote:
However my main point is that in the translation market, translators should behave as actors, not victims.
So, for the same reason it wuold be a very wise option not to accept payment terms at 90 days. I fight every day against this dangerous actitude in the pairs invoilving Italian and English.
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