| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Proz publishing the ads with exploitative rates Thread poster: Sandesh Ghimire
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Unfortunately, Proz.com doesn't look entirely blameless in all this, but you can't really expect a job-posting platform to take responsibility for moderating transaction parameters such as prices, volumes and deadlines.
Still, the very quoting engine — a reverse-auction mechanic par excellence — is responsible for the 'more text, faster and cheaper' attitude, and the wording of some parts of Proz.com is subservient to job posters, creating that sort of impression.
N... See more Unfortunately, Proz.com doesn't look entirely blameless in all this, but you can't really expect a job-posting platform to take responsibility for moderating transaction parameters such as prices, volumes and deadlines.
Still, the very quoting engine — a reverse-auction mechanic par excellence — is responsible for the 'more text, faster and cheaper' attitude, and the wording of some parts of Proz.com is subservient to job posters, creating that sort of impression.
Notably:
— the text where you post jobs casts a promise of not just finding the best translator but translators actually competing for your stuff;
— Professional Guidelines are full of low-profile parameters such as file formats etc, they are worded in subservient language and paint translators as executors of point-by-point client instructions.
Hence, while Proz.com doesn't actually go out of its way to promote sweatshops and peanut offers, it still at least inadvertently contributes to the bad state of the translation world today.
To remedy this situation, Proz.com would need to take a more decisive stance against the red ocean mentality and overwhelming cheapness — but that would likely mean losing the bulk of its paying members, i.e. irresponsible arrogant bottomfeeding translation agencies and cheap translators. As well as possibly straining its relationship with Lionbridge etc.
[Edited at 2015-04-17 15:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Hence, while Proz.com doesn't actually go out of its way to promote sweatshops and peanut offers, it still at least inadvertently contributes to the bad state of the translation world today.
Precisely.
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
To remedy this situation, Proz.com would need to take a more decisive stance against the red ocean mentality and overwhelming cheapness — but that would likely mean losing the bulk of its paying members
I'm sure you're right: on the other hand it might gain a whole new class of paying members who respect such a stance.
| | | | Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 09:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| You can filter them out | Apr 17, 2015 |
Francis Murphy wrote:
As a paying member of Proz.com, I find these postings intrusive and they clutter up the legitimate landscape. They should be filtered out.
I believe you can set filters specifying that you don't wish to be informed of jobs where the client's budget is below a certain amount per word. That way you'll never see them.
Of course, as it states on every job, there's nothing to prevent you quoting above the budget. In fact I'm sure that some of those who appear to be quoting for the job are actually sending a totally different message to the poster . I've done that myself on occasions when I've had time and have thought that there might be something to be gained by doing so (probably not for me personally, but for the poster and the industry as a whole).
Fiona Peterson wrote:
ProZ could easily refuse to publish these ridiculous rates.
They could, yes. But where would they draw the line? Here in Spain or in Italy, 0.06 (euros or dollars) is low but maybe not entirely ridiculous, even if most of us would expect double. Countries further north in Europe would surely regard that rate as too low to be allowed. And yet in some parts of the world a professional translator earning that rate could be up in the earning bands of lawyers and doctors.
I wasn't happy when so many jobs were displaying such rates for the world to see, including casual observers. But now they are restricted to an area mentioning the client's "budget", and hidden from all but paying members (who are presumably charging enough to afford membership), I think ProZ.com have done all they need. The bottom line is that absolutely no professional translator is ever under any pressure from the site or peers to accept rates they regard as derisory. If they feel they have to for personal reasons, why should we stop them?
| | | | | Do away with posters' option to propose a price | Apr 17, 2015 |
It has been suggested to Proz.com to completely do away with the job posters' option to "propose" a rate or price. It would be an easy solution and would make it clear that it is the translator, not the client, who determines the price. The professional way to go. I would support this move. If a platform is called Proz.com, then that should mean something. How professional are those job posters who post jobs for a pittance? How professional are translators who accept these prices? Right now, on... See more It has been suggested to Proz.com to completely do away with the job posters' option to "propose" a rate or price. It would be an easy solution and would make it clear that it is the translator, not the client, who determines the price. The professional way to go. I would support this move. If a platform is called Proz.com, then that should mean something. How professional are those job posters who post jobs for a pittance? How professional are translators who accept these prices? Right now, one can rightly get the impression that there's nothing wrong with those posters who continuously post these jobs (and the rates they propose) or the translators who accept them, many of both types paying members (= professionals!?) here on "Proz".com.
Let's not kid ourselves. This type of cheap job is posted again and again on the job board. It seems to me that it's "working" well for somebody. But don't think it has no impact on the industry. That would be naive in my opinion. ▲ Collapse
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Francis Murphy wrote:
These very low rate offers/solicitations are, IMHO, just an attempt to find the occasional translator who will take on a job at a ridiculously low price. The poster may expect to hear from two or three people out of many thousands who see the posting. As such, the posting has much in common with junk mail ads for pills and sex aids. As a paying member of Proz.com, I find these postings intrusive and they clutter up the legitimate landscape. They should be filtered out. Proz.com makes a big thing out of a translator's subcribing to the Proz.com "Professional Guidelines". We should expect the same professionalism from Proz.com management. All they need to do is apply some guidelines to the postings. This would show that Proz.com is solidly on the side of professional translators and professional agencies.
Some time ago I saw a very low rate job advertised which disappeared soon after and I felt hopeful that Proz is taking action. Sadly, I was explained that although the poster is made aware that their rate is below standard rates Proz could not block anyone from posting what they like.
| | | | | A site for professionals? | Apr 17, 2015 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: Francis Murphy wrote:
As a paying member of Proz.com, I find these postings intrusive and they clutter up the legitimate landscape. They should be filtered out. I believe you can set filters specifying that you don't wish to be informed of jobs where the client's budget is below a certain amount per word. That way you'll never see them.
Yes, if Francis is only concerned about "seeing" them.
But what about the practice itself? The fact that these jobs are published here again and again and accepted again and again? Filtering is not going to make those rate proposals go away.
Reality is, you can pretty much post any job here and propose the most ridiculous rates and you'll find someone who accepts them. I hold that this has negative consequences for the whole industry.
I say to ProZ.com, do away with letting "project" posters propose the price; that's not in the interest of professional translators. It's the translator/language expert who decides what the project should cost. Continue to educate new translators about fair rates. Don't support agencies who couldn't care less about a translator's future and are hopelessly unprofessional and without any respect for our profession. And still, you find them on ProZ.com
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:28
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Fiona Peterson wrote:
What I consider unacceptable is the fact that a supposedly "professional" translation website passes off acceptance of these rates as "the dictates of a free market". I think it would be noble - and doable - to set a minimum rate below which it will not publish jobs, because such rates do not constitute what professional translation services are worth in ANY part of the world.
So in effect ProZ would take the moral high ground and in doing so put some clear water between itself and its competitors? That sounds feasible, particularly if they go all out to brand themselves as the professional site in deed as well as word.
The problem I see is that they presumably would lose - or think they would lose - something in doing so, otherwise they would already have done it. (Although inertia is a powerful force and could be one explanation I suppose.) Or maybe they predict a fall in advertising, or job listing activity, or whatever.
ProZ management - you're quick enough to censor our messages for fairly trivial reasons, so we know you're reading this. What comment do you have?
Regards
Dan
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 16:28
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| What purpose does it serve? | Apr 17, 2015 |
If the rate listed is below your own, you can ignore it and save yourself the fruitless effort of contacting the agency. If the same agency posts a job without rates listed, you have to waste time contacting them before finding out that they're not what you're looking for.
Not allowing such outsourcers to list their rates would not affect their ability to post jobs and offer low rates in the least bit; it simply serves to waste the time of those whose time is valuable and make it th... See more If the rate listed is below your own, you can ignore it and save yourself the fruitless effort of contacting the agency. If the same agency posts a job without rates listed, you have to waste time contacting them before finding out that they're not what you're looking for.
Not allowing such outsourcers to list their rates would not affect their ability to post jobs and offer low rates in the least bit; it simply serves to waste the time of those whose time is valuable and make it that much harder to separate the wheat from the chaff. It's always hilarious to see how some people keep coming up with ludicrous solutions that do absolutely nothing to solve the problem and everything to exacerbate it.
Seriously, how far do some people need to be spoon-fed? ▲ Collapse
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| This was implemented back in 2010 | Apr 17, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It has been suggested to Proz.com to completely do away with the job posters' option to "propose" a rate or price. It would be an easy solution and would make it clear that it is the translator, not the client, who determines the price. The professional way to go. I would support this move. If a platform is called Proz.com, then that should mean something. How professional are those job posters who post jobs for a pittance? How professional are translators who accept these prices? Right now, one can rightly get the impression that there's nothing wrong with those posters who continuously post these jobs (and the rates they propose) or the translators who accept them, many of both types paying members (= professionals!?) here on "Proz".com.
Hi Bernhard,
This was discussed and implemented years ago.
Job posters are not allowed to enter rates information in the body of the job. This reflects the fact that the individual translator is in the best position to determine what he or she needs to charge on a given job.
Any budget information posted by the client must be posted in a separate box.
Translators can set in the job settings in their profiles their preference concerning this client budget information. The options are:
- Yes, I prefer to have access to a client's budget / position on rates when deciding whether or not to quote
- No, I prefer not to consider a client's budget / position on rates before quoting
Also, you can select not to receive notifications of jobs that are below your minimum rates.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | Not a reverse-auction mechanism | Apr 17, 2015 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Still, the very quoting engine — a reverse-auction mechanic par excellence — is responsible for the 'more text, faster and cheaper' attitude, and the wording of some parts of Proz.com is subservient to job posters, creating that sort of impression.
Hi Łukasz, the ProZ.com jobs feature in not a reverse-auction mechanism because service providers are free to send their own proposals to the client but they can't see the other translators' offers, and therefore there is no competition to bring down the rates.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | My proposal is different | Apr 17, 2015 |
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It has been suggested to Proz.com to completely do away with the job posters' option to "propose" a rate or price. It would be an easy solution and would make it clear that it is the translator, not the client, who determines the price. The professional way to go. I would support this move. If a platform is called Proz.com, then that should mean something. How professional are those job posters who post jobs for a pittance? How professional are translators who accept these prices? Right now, one can rightly get the impression that there's nothing wrong with those posters who continuously post these jobs (and the rates they propose) or the translators who accept them, many of both types paying members (= professionals!?) here on "Proz".com.
Hi Bernhard, This was discussed and implemented years ago. Job posters are not allowed to enter rates information in the body of the job. This reflects the fact that the individual translator is in the best position to determine what he or she needs to charge on a given job. Any budget information posted by the client must be posted in a separate box. Translators can set in the job settings in their profiles their preference concerning this client budget information. The options are: - Yes, I prefer to have access to a client's budget / position on rates when deciding whether or not to quote
- No, I prefer not to consider a client's budget / position on rates before quoting
Also, you can select not to receive notifications of jobs that are below your minimum rates. Regards, Enrique
Thank you for your reply.
I am aware of that, Enrique, and I appreciated the move. However, as you say, a job poster can post budget information (which is optional, yes) in a separate box. Also, translators can decide not to see the budget proposals. But they can, and many do, decide to see them, for various reasons.
What I am proposing is to simply do away completely with any kind of option for the job poster to post budget information, rates or prices for the work to be carried out.
People do look at these job, people do complain about about them, but I am sure these projects are being carried out at these or similarly low rates, and these rates are posted again and again which means (to me) that this system works for the posters.
Otherwise, these budgets would change (= increase). And why are these projects done at those rates? Well, most likely because they are published again and again at those rates here, and many translators (probably especially newcomers) think that's okay. Many things are professional here, but these jobs are not.
It's the translator who should propose a price, not the job poster. Filtering one's display option doesn't make the problem go away. These jobs continue to be published, and often rates seem to take another nose-dive.
I also recommend to continue to educate people who are looking for a "professional career as a translator" on fair rates and other professional practices of our trade, which you already do in many ways, but then you give posters the opportunity to post projects with simply ludicrous rates. It's up to you what you allow and what you don't. I am aware of that. But would you at least consider my proposal?
You can compare these rock bottom rates with those you publish on your translation rates page. It clearly shows the difference.
I personally think it's simply better for a professional site to leave the price proposal up to the translator, not the client. Otherwise this surely gives the impression that somehow theses rates proposed by posters are okay or acceptable for the hard work a professional translator does. And we need to be professional. You have published guidelines to that effect yourself. Based on these guidelines, there's no way someone can do professional work at rock bottom prices. If they do, they have no idea of what they're doing and how they are being exploited. I believe you can make this site more translator-friendly.
Just my thoughts.
[Edited at 2015-04-17 16:41 GMT]
| | | | | That option was considered and declined | Apr 17, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am aware of that, Enrique, and I appreciated the move. However, as you say, a job poster can post budget information (which is optional, yes) in a separate box. Also, translators can decide not to see the budget proposals. But they can, and many do, decide to see them, for various reasons.
What I am proposing is to simply do away completely with any kind of option for the job poster to post budget information, rates or prices for the work to be carried out.
People do look at these job, people do complain about about them, but I am sure these projects are being carried out at these or similarly low rates, and these rates are posted again and again which means (to me) that this system works for the posters.
Otherwise, these budgets would change (= increase). And why are these projects done at those rates? Well, most likely because they are published again and again at those rates here, and many translators (probably especially newcomers) think that's okay. Many things are professional here, but these jobs are not.
It's the translator who should propose a price, not the job poster. Filtering one's display option doesn't make the problem go away. These jobs continue to be published, and often rates seem to take another nose-dive.
Thanks Bernhard!
Preventing clients from posting any budget information in the job postings was evaluated and discussed back in 2010, but many translators were against this restriction, arguing that they preferred to be able to filter or ignore low budget jobs, thus avoiding the effort of sending a proposal that had little hope of being accepted.
ProZ.com strongly believes that the individual translators are in the best position to determine what they need to charge for a given job.
Along the same lines, it was decided that translators should have the freedom to decide if they wanted to see budget information or not.
Also, translators can select not to receive notifications of jobs that are below their minimum rates when budget information is available for the job. This could not be done without budget information.
Since client budget ranges are visible only to translators who have expressed a preference to consider client budgets, and meet the specified job criteria, this eliminates the possibility for the job posting system to be used to "popularize" low rates.
Regards,
Enrique
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| Please restrict what job posters can post (esp. the rate) | Apr 17, 2015 |
This is an example (slightly changed but based on a real offer) of what is available for anyone who chooses to see it.
I boldfaced the parts I would perceive as signs of unprofessional practices (granted, not all those "signs" by themselves would be indicators of unprofessional practices).
It is a very typical example of late, and it is posted by a Certified Pro(z.com) member (agency), and the blueboard record consists of all 5s.
__________________________________... See more This is an example (slightly changed but based on a real offer) of what is available for anyone who chooses to see it.
I boldfaced the parts I would perceive as signs of unprofessional practices (granted, not all those "signs" by themselves would be indicators of unprofessional practices).
It is a very typical example of late, and it is posted by a Certified Pro(z.com) member (agency), and the blueboard record consists of all 5s.
_____________________________________________
German to English, approx. 6000 words, long term collaboration
send your Skype ID
need to send translation in parts
we ask for freelancers only, don't accept agencies!
We need an expert native English translator; project with around 6000 new words. Please, your price should be based per source word (technical translation). CAT tool Trados is required as there are also some repetitions and fuzzy matchesl.
If you are interested and if it is possible for you to start right away, please send us your CV and rate and Skype ID.
Source format: sdlxliff
Delivery format: sdlxliff
The budget entered for this job is below the rates charged by at least 80% of ProZ.com members for this pair and currency.
$0.04 USD to $0.045 USD per word
($240.00 USD to $270.00 USD estimated total)
Payment method: Online via PayPal
Payment 45 days after date of invoice.
______________________________________________
I am not saying that there aren't a few better jobs posted, but lots of jobs look like the one above.
Even though it carries the Proz.com warning "The budget entered for this job is below the rates charged by at least 80% of ProZ.com members for this pair and currency," the fact remains that the job is posted as such, with a budget that leaves not much leeway for negotiation, and by a Certified Pro(z.com) member.
Why does Proz.com have Certified Proz.com members that get away with this = posting such rubbish? I must assume it's okay with you. Are there best practices guidelines for posters? This happens every day.
I would say a professional wouldn't ask an expert to work at such low rates, hide the fact of the true word count (6000 new words + how many reps and fuzzy words?? exactly), possibly wanting to simply charge for 6000 new words and a few repetitions and fuzzies, based on what analysis? If not, the total source word count should probably be higher. In addition, the translator is supposed to "lose" money by only being able to be paid by PayPal (if you're a translator, make sure you know how much it will cost you for the PayPal transfer), and you've got to wait 45 days for payment for a job that needs to be done immediately.
If you get rid of the budget option altogether and restrict how posters can word their projects ("best rate" is another one of those unprofessional euphemisms that is seen very often), you can contribute to raising the standards here and that of our industry in general. You would send a signal that it is not okay for users of ProZ.com (and any real professional client out there) to post such pittance-budgets.
When you say that only those people see the budget/rates who want to see it/them, the fact remains that companies like the one from which I got this job posting and blueboard record, are major players in the low end of the market. They and the low market exist because their jobs are picked up by people who don't know any better. Every job given to the low end of the market is a potentially lost job for a professional translator. And I dare say offers like the one above are clearly exploitative. But it's so much easier for newcomers to simply agree to the posters' terms in hopes to get a project, no matter what it pays. But they hurt themselves and the industry.
By getting rid of the posters' option to suggest budgets/rates/prices altogether, every translator is forced to quote a price. Will it remedy the awful situation this industry is in? I think it may help. Especially when it is combined with continuous education. You will also need fewer warnings. What does it say about your platform when there are warning signs that warn of potentially exploitative but accepted contributors to this platform?
I suggest to continue to educate all translators about exploitative practices and not allow those practices to be used on Proz.com.
Every time a new translator reads a post like the one above and then jumps to the blueboard full of 5-star praises, what is she/he to think? Hmm, must be okay. Or: Well, I need to work, I'll just accept the terms. At least they seem to pay whatever it is they're paying, 45 days from the date of the invoice.
Accepting such proposals as the one I referenced means helping these unscrupulous agencies make a profit based on unprofessional remuneration. and that hurts the industry as a whole.
If you want to work as a translator in this industry, you should do an accurate job, and you should get paid adequately.
Job posts like the one above are not helping to advance our profession.
Would you at all consider removing the poster's option to propose a budget/rate/price and tighten (minimize or explain /define acceptable) poster-language? If you ask translators to adhere to best/professional practices, why don't you ask the same of the job posters?
[Edited at 2015-04-18 06:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 10:28
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| A very interesting question..... | Apr 18, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It is a very typical example of late, and it is posted by a Certified Pro(z.com) member (agency), and the blueboard record consists of all 5s.
Why does Proz.com have Certified Proz.com members that get away with this = posting such rubbish? I must assume it's okay with you. Are there best practices guidelines for posters? This happens every day.
....but will it be answered?
[Edited at 2015-04-18 01:42 GMT]
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 10:28
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Making things easier | Apr 18, 2015 |
There is always an easy way to avoid these low-budget jobs. When checking the job board, all it takes is one look at the rates and terms offered - sometimes at the poster's country. If the rate is too low and/or the famous fuzzies and repetitions don't yield a clear picture of the job proposed, then it only takes one mouse click to move on... and leave those "peanut-snatchers" behind.
When a Certified Pro posts an offer that s/he would never accept, then it's entirely up to them to ... See more There is always an easy way to avoid these low-budget jobs. When checking the job board, all it takes is one look at the rates and terms offered - sometimes at the poster's country. If the rate is too low and/or the famous fuzzies and repetitions don't yield a clear picture of the job proposed, then it only takes one mouse click to move on... and leave those "peanut-snatchers" behind.
When a Certified Pro posts an offer that s/he would never accept, then it's entirely up to them to decide whether such a posting is in accordance with their own business conduct and, yes, with the pride they take in being a Pro.
Just my 2 cents. ▲ Collapse
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