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Proz publishing the ads with exploitative rates
Thread poster: Sandesh Ghimire
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 22:13
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Wasting time quoting for outsources who won't offer acceptable rates Apr 20, 2015

If you want to waste your own time, fine. Don't shove it down other people's throats, because we're actually busy.

 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:13
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Opinions are often worth what we pay for them Apr 20, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
You might think it has no consequences for yourself if someone somewhere in some corner of the world gets paid that. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I don't share that opinion.

We know.

But Diana's opinion, perhaps because she (like myself) has had an extensive business career outside translation, is backed by a rational and nuanced hypothesis for the way the translation market works that is congruent with the way other markets are observed to work: multiple regions, multiple specialised sectors, multiple levels of competence and therefore (tada!) multiple rates.

By contrast, you simply assert, repeatedly, that everybody, everywhere in the world should work for a minimum price set by, effectively, people in developed countries.

This is utterly unrealistic. Can you name a single other market in which this happens? No? Then why should translation be an exception?

This forum is to some extent a marketplace of ideas. I don't buy your idea because it doesn't seem supported by either theory or my own experience. I buy Diana's because hers is supported by both.

Regards
Dan


 
Maria S. Loose, LL.M.
Maria S. Loose, LL.M.  Identity Verified
Belgium
Local time: 15:13
German to English
+ ...
on segmentation Apr 20, 2015

I, for one, share Diana's opinion about segmentation. There is a premium market, a middle-of-the-range market and a low-cost market. One of the reasons for the existence of this segmentation is the existence of opportunity costs. A person who is trained as a lawyer will not work as an expert translator if he or she doesn't make as much money as he or she could make working as a lawyer. A person working in the low-cost market often does it, because he has no other job perspectves available to hi... See more
I, for one, share Diana's opinion about segmentation. There is a premium market, a middle-of-the-range market and a low-cost market. One of the reasons for the existence of this segmentation is the existence of opportunity costs. A person who is trained as a lawyer will not work as an expert translator if he or she doesn't make as much money as he or she could make working as a lawyer. A person working in the low-cost market often does it, because he has no other job perspectves available to him What I like about Diana's post is that she mentions rates expressed in monetary value. Bernhard, you never mention the rates that you consider professional. You only mention those rates, such as $.04 per word, that you consider unprofessional. It would be nice if you could go into more details about this.

[Edited at 2015-04-20 07:37 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-04-20 07:38 GMT]
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Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
English to German
+ ...
For fair prices everywhere, not just in develped countries Apr 20, 2015

Dan Lucas wrote:

By contrast, you simply assert, repeatedly, that everybody, everywhere in the world should work for a minimum price set by, effectively, people in developed countries.

This is utterly unrealistic. Can you name a single other market in which this happens? No? Then why should translation be an exception?


Where do I do that, Dan?
I have stated that fair rates should be applied anywhere in the world. USD .04/word for German>English is not a fair rate anywhere in the world. Far from it. And I think that many in so-called developing countries are selling themselves far too cheap. But I'll let them talk for themselves.

Dan Lucas wrote:
This forum is to some extent a marketplace of ideas. I don't buy your idea because it doesn't seem supported by either theory or my own experience. I buy Diana's because hers is supported by both.


That's fine.

[Edited at 2015-04-20 11:39 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
English to German
+ ...
Keep it civil, please Apr 20, 2015

Lincoln Hui wrote:

If you want to waste your own time, fine. Don't shove it down other people's throats, because we're actually busy.


Your condescending tone in replying to My post (you mean me , right?!) is really uncalled for among colleagues.
And I am not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
English to German
+ ...
On professional rates Apr 20, 2015

Maria S. Loose, LL.M. wrote:

I, for one, share Diana's opinion about segmentation. There is a premium market, a middle-of-the-range market and a low-cost market. One of the reasons for the existence of this segmentation is the existence of opportunity costs. A person who is trained as a lawyer will not work as an expert translator if he or she doesn't make as much money as he or she could make working as a lawyer. A person working in the low-cost market often does it, because he has no other job perspectves available to him What I like about Diana's post is that she mentions rates expressed in monetary value. Bernhard, you never mention the rates that you consider professional. You only mention those rates, such as $.04 per word, that you consider unprofessional. It would be nice if you could go into more details about this.

[Edited at 2015-04-20 07:37 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-04-20 07:38 GMT]


Hi Maria,

Please visit the Proz.com rate page and find out what I consider minimum rates. It is my opinion that newcomers would do well going there and orient themselves towards those rates that are listed there as "standard rates."

See:
http://search.proz.com/employers/rates

An example: English to Hindi: USD 0.10/word

Regarding your statement: "A person working in the low-cost market often does it, because he has no other job perspectves available to him."

My suggestion is that anyone working as a translator should do it for a fair price. What you find on the job board here is very often outrageous, no matter where the targeted translators live. People need to be educated about fair prices and not simply encouraged to work for unscrupulous posters.


 
Francis Murphy (X)
Francis Murphy (X)  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 11:13
French to English
In the translation business vs using the translation business Apr 20, 2015

Let's be realistic. Most people posting these very low rates are simply hustlers. Like the boiler room types who buy credit card debt for a penny on the dollar and then try to squeeze out a few dollars by tracking down some of the debtors. These "outsourcers" are not about quality, repeat business or any of the basic values that professional translators espouse. In fact, repeat business is not part of their business model.

 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 22:13
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
If something deserves to be ridiculed, it should be Apr 20, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Lincoln Hui wrote:

If you want to waste your own time, fine. Don't shove it down other people's throats, because we're actually busy.


Your condescending tone in replying to My post (you mean me , right?!) is really uncalled for among colleagues.
And I am not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat.

You absolutely are when you call for changes in order to waste our time quoting for agencies that are not interested in paying our rates.


 
Diana Obermeyer
Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:13
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Averages and deviation Apr 20, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Please visit the Proz.com rate page and find out what I consider minimum rates. It is my opinion that newcomers would do well going there and orient themselves towards those rates that are listed there as "standard rates."

See:
http://search.proz.com/employers/rates



These are averages.
The ***average*** reported minimum rates and the ***average*** reported standard rate.
For every translator who works for less than the average, there is someone else who charges more than the average.

http://www.mathplanet.com/education/algebra-2/quadratic-functions-and-inequalities/standard-deviation-and-normal-distribution


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
English to German
+ ...
Clarification Apr 20, 2015

dianaft wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Please visit the Proz.com rate page and find out what I consider minimum rates. It is my opinion that newcomers would do well going there and orient themselves towards those rates that are listed there as "standard rates."

See:
http://search.proz.com/employers/rates



These are averages.
The ***average*** reported minimum rates and the ***average*** reported standard rate.
For every translator who works for less than the average, there is someone else who charges more than the average.

http://www.mathplanet.com/education/algebra-2/quadratic-functions-and-inequalities/standard-deviation-and-normal-distribution


I am aware of how the rates are presented there. I am merely saying that I personally recommend to new translators to orient themselves towards the "standard" rates published on the Proz.com translation rates page. I consider that a minimum, not what is listed there as "minimum." And yes, these are averages. Nevertheless, these average rates are usually twice or three times higher than what you find offered many times on the job board and I consider them a good and fair indicator, as a "starting" rate. I am not saying that this is what I charge or what a professional and experienced translator charges/should be able to charge.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
English to German
+ ...
Thoughts Apr 20, 2015

Francis Murphy wrote:

Let's be realistic. Most people posting these very low rates are simply hustlers. Like the boiler room types who buy credit card debt for a penny on the dollar and then try to squeeze out a few dollars by tracking down some of the debtors. These "outsourcers" are not about quality, repeat business or any of the basic values that professional translators espouse. In fact, repeat business is not part of their business model.


Many of these companies post their cheap jobs again and again, have so for years. And we're not talking about a few agencies. These are actual jobs being accepted by translators. And some of these posters are listed as Certified Proz.
How do yo know that "These "outsourcers" are not about quality, repeat business or any of the basic values that professional translators espouse. In fact, repeat business is not part of their business model."

Repeat business as in the same clients coming back again? Well, maybe not. How about finding new clients and translators, over and over again? At insulting prices?
It doesn't bother you?

[Edited at 2015-04-20 13:08 GMT]


 
Diana Obermeyer
Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:13
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Thanks Apr 20, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

dianaft wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Please visit the Proz.com rate page and find out what I consider minimum rates. It is my opinion that newcomers would do well going there and orient themselves towards those rates that are listed there as "standard rates."

See:
http://search.proz.com/employers/rates



These are averages.
The ***average*** reported minimum rates and the ***average*** reported standard rate.
For every translator who works for less than the average, there is someone else who charges more than the average.

http://www.mathplanet.com/education/algebra-2/quadratic-functions-and-inequalities/standard-deviation-and-normal-distribution


I am aware of how the rates are presented there. I am merely saying that I personally recommend to new translators to orient themselves towards the "standard" rates published on the Proz.com translation rates page. I consider that a minimum, not what is listed there as "minimum." And yes, these are averages. Nevertheless, these average rates are usually twice or three times higher than what you find offered many times on the job board and I consider them a good and fair indicator, as a "starting" rate. I am not saying that this is what I charge or what a professional and experienced translator charges/should be able to charge.


for the clarification.


 
Maria S. Loose, LL.M.
Maria S. Loose, LL.M.  Identity Verified
Belgium
Local time: 15:13
German to English
+ ...
opportunity cost Apr 20, 2015

Bernhard, in Germany you can make 16 EUR per hour working as a freelance or black market cleaning lady and 25 EUR per hour working as a freelance language instructor for a private language school. In order to gain 25 EUR per hour by translating for 0.04 EUR per word you have to translate 625 words per hour and 5000 words per day. The quality of the translation done by a translator who charges 0.04 and who has to translate 5000 words per day can't be outstanding, to say the least. It's probably a... See more
Bernhard, in Germany you can make 16 EUR per hour working as a freelance or black market cleaning lady and 25 EUR per hour working as a freelance language instructor for a private language school. In order to gain 25 EUR per hour by translating for 0.04 EUR per word you have to translate 625 words per hour and 5000 words per day. The quality of the translation done by a translator who charges 0.04 and who has to translate 5000 words per day can't be outstanding, to say the least. It's probably a translation done in part or completely by machine translation. This kind of reasoning also applies to other countries. Nobody will do translations for less money than he or she could earn doing other jobs. If customers want a translation done by someone who doesn't have an in-depth knowledge of the source language, who has a less than perfect command of the target language, who does not have subject-matter knowledge, etc. then let them have this kind of service. It's up to the customer to know what kind of service they want.

The same is true in other industries, too. I once had my bathroom fixed by a person who claimed to know something about plumbing and who only charged half of the price that an official plumber would have charged. It was a catastrophe: Some days later I had left for holidays and in my absence my whole house was flooded because the sink had not been properly installed. I should have hired an official plumber and paid the standard price. From this experience I have drawn the lesson to always make enquiries, ask for references, check the trade register, ask for the VAT number of the plumber, etc. in order to find out, whether it's an official, trained plumber or just somebody who claims to know something about plumbing.


[Edited at 2015-04-20 14:32 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-04-20 14:54 GMT]
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Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
English to German
+ ...
Reply Apr 20, 2015

Maria S. Loose, LL.M. wrote:

Bernhard, in Germany you can make 16 EUR per hour working as a freelance or black market cleaning lady and 25 EUR per hour working as a freelance language instructor for a private language school. In order to gain 25 EUR per hour by translating for 0.04 EUR per word you have to translate 625 words per hour and 5000 words per day. The quality of the translation done by a translator who charges 0.04 and who has to translate 5000 words per day can't be outstanding, to say the least. It's probably a translation done in part or completely by machine translation. ...."


I can't go by "probably." I don't hold my breath either about the quality of low-cost translations and hope that the clients and agencies involved in this will realize that it can't be worthwhile but the job board tells a different story. I have talked about this earlier in this thread. To me, it matters to discuss these travesties that are happening every day. That's why I decided to participate in this thread.

[Edited at 2015-04-20 14:55 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 22:13
Chinese to English
Just not sure I believe in this lowest market segment Apr 20, 2015

dianaft wrote:

There are different markets.
There are clients who seek a premium service and will pay premium rates...EUR 0.40 to 0.60/word...highly specialised....

Then, there is the mainstream market...EUR 0.08 and EUR 0.15...somewhat specialised...

Finally, there is the cheap and cheerful market...translations should be OK and not contain major errors...rates are between EUR 0.03 and 0.05...

I see the argument, but I have to say that I don't believe in that lowest tier. In the Chinese market - the only one I know - once you get down to that low pay tier, there is no assurance of quality. You can be reading for a couple of paragraphs, and it's kind of OK, you just about know what they mean, and then all of a sudden "pig iron" becomes an iron statue of a pig. It's just insane.

The reason I would support Bernhard on his Quixotic quest to hold back the grim effects of the profit incentive is because I think that people who buy at 0.03-0.05 are being lied to - a lie perpetuated here by Diana. They are told that they are getting something cheap and cheerful, but they're not, they're getting a cheap and nasty. The effect for me is like those old anti-video piracy ads, where the kids are happily watching a pirate copy of Happy Scrappy Hero Pup and it suddenly turns into a slasher movie or something.

As I've said on other threads, I don't really think it's about living costs; nor even about linguistic ability. It's about the existence of a tradition and a cohort of professional translators. I think buyers do not realise that if they pay 0.03 (or rather, 0.06 to an agency which then hires a translator at 0.03), they will get someone who is worse not in ability, but in whether they give a monkey's what kind of a service they offer.

(I am open to being proved wrong. If hundreds of highly professional translators who charge 0.03-5 are reading this, then please, come and comment.)


 
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Proz publishing the ads with exploitative rates







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