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Thousands of translators with years of experience working for .01 a word
Thread poster: Jeff Whittaker
Merab Dekano
Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
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Then it's fine. Jul 6, 2015

Viesturs Lacis wrote:

Merab Dekano wrote:
If so, machine translation will do, no need to bother paying 0.01 either.

What if the client perceives a greater difference between MT and a 0.01/w translator than between 0.01/w and 0.15/w translators? These 0.01/w translators might be desperate, unqualified and unaware of the intricacies of style and spelling (as are often the clients themselves); however, their work will probably still turn out to be much more comprehensible to human readers than the output of your typical MT engine.


I wish the 0.01/w translator and the corresponding client all the best down the road, then. I reckon the client will have huge commercial success powered by 0.01-ish quality translations and "Papá Noel" will pay the translator’s bills.

Now seriously, I've seen those translations and if you translate "pacemaker" into Spanish as "marcapazos" (the real word is "marcapasos"), I guess the Spanish speaking customers will be delighted. It's juts one letter, no big deal. The real problem is that 0.01 translators are so illiterate, they simply do not recognize the error, nor do they have proper research skills to detect the misspelled word.

If they are to compete with professional translators, can you explain why we still exist?


[Edited at 2015-07-06 12:17 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
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It could actually be worse than MT Jul 6, 2015

Viesturs Lacis wrote:
What if the client perceives a greater difference between MT and a 0.01/w translator than between 0.01/w and 0.15/w translators? These 0.01/w translators might be desperate, unqualified and unaware of the intricacies of style and spelling (as are often the clients themselves); however, their work will probably still turn out to be much more comprehensible to human readers than the output of your typical MT engine.

Dirt cheap human translation won't be more comprehensible if it fails to take account of false friends, as I imagine is the case with many of these desperate, unqualified, unaware and terribly overworked (if they're to earn anything more than pocket money in a day) translators. The English word "actually" spring to mind, being a false friend in several major languages, but there are many more important ones e.g. in the medical area, where MT probably fares better.


 
Jeff Whittaker
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Here's my dystopian prediction for the future... Jul 6, 2015

1) There is a major accident involving a document post-edited using machine translation that makes international headlines.
2) Out of fear of additional lawsuits, GT "temporarily" removes its public MT system.
3) Shortly thereafter, other sites quickly remove their on-line MT programs.
4) In the frenzy, ProZ places its KudoZ glossaries behind the membership paywall. Some other online sentence-matching "dictionaries" follow suit.
5) 65% of "translators" and "agencies" disa
... See more
1) There is a major accident involving a document post-edited using machine translation that makes international headlines.
2) Out of fear of additional lawsuits, GT "temporarily" removes its public MT system.
3) Shortly thereafter, other sites quickly remove their on-line MT programs.
4) In the frenzy, ProZ places its KudoZ glossaries behind the membership paywall. Some other online sentence-matching "dictionaries" follow suit.
5) 65% of "translators" and "agencies" disappear.
6) Price of translation skyrockets.



[Edited at 2015-07-06 13:14 GMT]
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Merab Dekano
Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
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We wish Jul 6, 2015

Jeff Whittaker wrote:

1) There is a major accident involving a document post-edited using machine translation that makes international headlines.
2) Out of fear of additional lawsuits, GT "temporarily" removes its public MT system.
3) Shortly thereafter, other sites quickly remove their on-line MT programs.
4) In the frenzy, ProZ places its KudoZ glossaries behind the membership paywall. Some other online sentence-matching "dictionaries" follow suit.
5) 65% of "translators" and "agencies" disappear.
6) Price of translation skyrockets.



[Edited at 2015-07-06 13:14 GMT]


I would not be so optimistic. Unfortunately, as we say in Spain, "la ignorancia es atrevida" (or as you would say: "fools rush in where angels fear to tread").

So long there is blatant ignorance out there, 0.01s will not follow the dinosaurs’ path. Unfortunately, the clients play part in this too. To give you a real life example, I had 10 emails exchanged and two phone calls made with a client who though the “¡” in the word, say, “¡Hola!” was the letter “i”. I tried to explain that rather it was the opening exclamation mark and that I could not remove one and leave the other.

If on the “receiving end” there is no “human” to appreciate the quality, there is no difference between 0.01 and 0.12 translation, really.

Fortunately, not all customers fall in this category, by far not. Many, in fact, appreciate and reward the quality.


[Edited at 2015-07-06 13:54 GMT]


 
Jeff Whittaker
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Oh, yes.... Jul 6, 2015

trying to explain the Spanish upside down question and exclamation marks to clients...

[Edited at 2015-07-06 14:29 GMT]


 
Balasubramaniam L.
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Further misconceptions Jul 6, 2015

Merab Dekano wrote:
Now seriously, I've seen those translations and if you translate "pacemaker" into Spanish as "marcapazos" (the real word is "marcapasos"), I guess the Spanish speaking customers will be delighted. It's juts one letter, no big deal. The real problem is that 0.01 translators are so illiterate, they simply do not recognize the error, nor do they have proper research skills to detect the misspelled word.

If they are to compete with professional translators, can you explain why we still exist?


You are not getting it.

The 1 centers would probably not be used for translating pacemaker literature, where quality and accuracy are desirable. 1 centers would be used where these are not important, as in the examples I had given in the earlier posts.

Merab Dekano wrote:
The real problem is that 0.01 translators are so illiterate...


Not necessarily. Many of them are, but you will also find part timers who are extremely knowledgeable both about language as well as about the subject, but they are not fulltime professionals. They might be holding fulltime jobs from which they gain actual sustenance and only moonlight as translators, for various reasons - they might want to supplement their income, they might be thinking about taking up fulltime freelancing and are testing the waters, or they just are interested in languages and translating and the money part is not important to them, as they earn their money from elsewhere, or have already earned their pot of gold.

Merab Dekano wrote:
If they are to compete with professional translators, can you explain why we still exist?


They don't compete with professionals actually. Both operate in different spheres.

The best way to explain this would be analogies from ecology. In the North American prairies you have wolves as well as coyotes. The coyotes often prey on the left-overs of the wolves, but the wolves do manage to get most of what they kill. The wolves detest the coyotes and would like to exterminate all the coyotes, but the coyotes are clever and nimble on their feet and rarely get caught. As long as there are plenty of prey out there in the prairies the wolves are not really worried about the coyotes. The coyotes don't go for the big game like elk or bison, which are the main prey of the wolves, but go after smaller games like rabbits or ground birds, or scavenge. Both coexist and are well-entrenched. The coyotes are minor irritants to the wolves, but are not existential threats. (For those living in other parts of the world, substitute wolves and coyotes with lions and hyenas or tigers and hyenas).

Now to interpret this analogy, which actually is perhaps not necessary - the wolves are the 50 centers and the coyotes are the 1 centers, prey is translation jobs. This analogy holds as long as the total number or volume of translation jobs is constantly increasing, which I have reasons to believe, is. Also the 50 centers and the 1 centers take up different types of jobs (elks vs rabbits).

This is why I am of the position that it is pointless to make a mountain out of the molehill of bottom-feeders (best rate, in this thread). The bottommers may be a pain in the neck for us professionals, and a major eyesore, but they don't pose any serious problem.

They are an issue only if you are not really a professional and you are ecologically too close to them, in which case competition can become severe and you can be mauled badly and even shown the way of dinosaurs for only one species can inhabit a niche and the stronger will push out the weaker.

But if you are a true professional, you are beyond the reach of the bottom feeders and have little to fear.

Which is why, the most important thing that those who feel threatened by bottom-feeders should do is to differentiate themselves clearly from the "coyotes" and acquire the true attributes of "wolves".

(Wolves in many cultures have a negative connotation; here the word has been used in the opposite sense, as noble beasts, which they really are ecologically.)

[Edited at 2015-07-06 17:13 GMT]


 
Jeff Whittaker
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Apparently the site will ban you if you are caught using MT Jul 6, 2015

http://www.fiverrexposed.com/threads/translators-that-deliver-copies-generated-google-translate.161/

and people do use the ser
... See more
http://www.fiverrexposed.com/threads/translators-that-deliver-copies-generated-google-translate.161/

and people do use the service to translate websites:

http://www.examiner.com/article/fiverr-takes-on-website-translation-services




[Edited at 2015-07-06 22:44 GMT]
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Jeff Whittaker
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Jul 6, 2015



[Edited at 2015-07-07 15:25 GMT]


 
Jeff Whittaker
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Here's another site that translates 500 words for $10 Jul 6, 2015

http://www.woodstitch.com/resources/professional-website-translation.php

Note that in the top banner, they have misspelled the word "languages" as "languanges" and the word "wesite" on the form. Yet, they are still in business because they are cheap. They claim not to use MT, but who is doing the work?



[Edited at 2015-07-06 23:09
... See more
http://www.woodstitch.com/resources/professional-website-translation.php

Note that in the top banner, they have misspelled the word "languages" as "languanges" and the word "wesite" on the form. Yet, they are still in business because they are cheap. They claim not to use MT, but who is doing the work?



[Edited at 2015-07-06 23:09 GMT]
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Jeff Whittaker
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Translate texts online with an average of ~8$/hour Jul 9, 2015

People seem really excited about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/beermoney/comments/2zxfl1/translate_texts_online_with_an_average_of_8hour/

 
Jean Lachaud
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Reading the fine print Jul 9, 2015

Ah, but the sidebar says it all: "/r/beermoney is a community for people to discuss online money-making opportunities. You shouldn't expect to make a living, but it's possible to make extra cash on the side for your habits/needs."




 
Jeff Whittaker
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I tried to sign up just to see if I would qualify and it makes everybody Jul 9, 2015

translate INTO your non-native language. Actually, it makes you post-edit machine translations.

JL01 wrote:

Ah, but the sidebar says it all: "/r/beermoney is a community for people to discuss online money-making opportunities. You shouldn't expect to make a living, but it's possible to make extra cash on the side for your habits/needs."




[Edited at 2015-07-09 19:59 GMT]


 
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz  Identity Verified
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... Jul 11, 2015

The statutory rate for EN-PL sworn translation (only on court or admin appointments for proceedings held under statutory authority) is about USD 6,17 per 1125 characters, which would be about 150 words. Not really the same range, but still a one-digit rate for a three-digit volume.

And sworn translators are required to have a university degree and pass a rigorous examination. Several years ago the rules were: master's in philology (including linguistics) with translation major, or m
... See more
The statutory rate for EN-PL sworn translation (only on court or admin appointments for proceedings held under statutory authority) is about USD 6,17 per 1125 characters, which would be about 150 words. Not really the same range, but still a one-digit rate for a three-digit volume.

And sworn translators are required to have a university degree and pass a rigorous examination. Several years ago the rules were: master's in philology (including linguistics) with translation major, or master's in anything + after-master's in translation and interpreting. Even with those requirements, pass rates were like 20-30%. And the exam was kindergarten compared to real-life tasks. Sworn translators are the kind of people who get certified in the 'wrong' direction, i.e. bidirectionally, which includes translating into a foreign language. Which clearly means not your average translator.

Many ordinary translators or even perhans sworn translators in non-sworn jobs would almost fit Fiver's model — they charge about a fiver (after conversion into USD) for approx. 250 words. And those aren't real bottom feeders yet, by quite a margin.

Which, of course, is pretty sad. Actually, it's very sad.

What I really can't wrap my mind around is how anyone can actually survive on 0.03 per word or less while living in Western Europe.

Samuel Murray wrote:

Fabio M. Caldas wrote:
So I wrote down my proposal while trying to educate the client on the pros of hiring a professional translator and cons of hiring other people. Well, I didn't get any reply from this individual and I know that this is probably because of the huge price difference between my final proposal and what he see on Fivierr, but it was worth to try.


There is a name for that: bait and switch. It is generally considered unethical. However, I wonder just how many people who offer tasks on fiverr don't actually do just that.


I would call it poor style rather than likening it to theft, but it's quite questionable indeed.

Still, there is a form of bait I use quite deliberately, not to switch later, but to gain a degree of control. Namely, I comply with requests for free samples, I even encourage them, and actually give them those samples before discussing my rates. It's more difficult to give up on something you've already tasted.

This means I do play with their heads, though no misrepresentation is involved, and it often involves benefiting from acting precisely like they wish.

Being on Fiver without clear disclaimers that what you see was a one-time offer, literally the bargain of your lifetime, well, that would be close to misrepresentation. Though one could argue that no promises of repeat availability ever were given, it's still true that one's presence implies a general availability for work stated on terms stated.

[Edited at 2015-07-11 18:47 GMT]
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Jeff Whittaker
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The problem is that even if they ultimately never deliver Jul 11, 2015

500 words for $5.00, it creates a damaging anchoring effect:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140419120755/http://blog.transbunko.com/the-anchoring-effect-and-translation-rates/

[Excerpt:
"Losing Your Translation Rate to the Anchoring Effect

What? $0.25/word that’s so expensive!
... See more
500 words for $5.00, it creates a damaging anchoring effect:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140419120755/http://blog.transbunko.com/the-anchoring-effect-and-translation-rates/

[Excerpt:
"Losing Your Translation Rate to the Anchoring Effect

What? $0.25/word that’s so expensive!

We’ve all heard that sometime in our career but why do clients think that? It’s not simply the desire to pay less or the lack of appreciation for quality. It’s much more subtle than that and it’s related to why you’ll buy more boxes of tissues when there’s a limit of 6 per customer. What’s hurting our rates is not necessarily the race to the bottom but the anchoring effect. People are simply irrational.... [article continues...]



[Edited at 2015-07-11 19:11 GMT]
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Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 20:40
English to Polish
+ ...
Yup Jul 11, 2015

Jeff Whittaker wrote:

1) There is a major accident involving a document post-edited using machine translation that makes international headlines.
2) Out of fear of additional lawsuits, GT "temporarily" removes its public MT system.
3) Shortly thereafter, other sites quickly remove their on-line MT programs.
4) In the frenzy, ProZ places its KudoZ glossaries behind the membership paywall. Some other online sentence-matching "dictionaries" follow suit.
5) 65% of "translators" and "agencies" disappear.
6) Price of translation skyrockets.



[Edited at 2015-07-06 13:14 GMT]


You should write crime stories/political fiction.

The scenario sounds viable. In practice, however, I would worry that so much 'progress' has been made, and humanity doesn't really go back, hence a new way of coping could be devised and chosen over a simple roll-back. And that obviously means PEMT-ing armed with a new contractual framework and tailored insurance solutions. Informed consent etc.

But still, the availability of any free online tools is very, very fragile and subject to abrupt change.

Jeff Whittaker wrote:

500 words for $5.00, it creates a damaging anchoring effect:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140419120755/http://blog.transbunko.com/the-anchoring-effect-and-translation-rates/

[Excerpt:
"Losing Your Translation Rate to the Anchoring Effect

What? $0.25/word that’s so expensive!

We’ve all heard that sometime in our career but why do clients think that? It’s not simply the desire to pay less or the lack of appreciation for quality. It’s much more subtle than that and it’s related to why you’ll buy more boxes of tissues when there’s a limit of 6 per customer. What’s hurting our rates is not necessarily the race to the bottom but the anchoring effect. People are simply irrational.... [article continues...]



[Edited at 2015-07-11 19:11 GMT]


Yup. Unfortunately, every such silly price establishes the impression that if not exactly that precise amount, then at least something in that same range is viable.


 
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