| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Different rates for the domestic+foreign markets? Thread poster: S_G_C
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| While I do adapt to the market, I never accept unprofessional rates. | Nov 2, 2015 |
I am probably lucky in being able to negotiate, at least to some extent. I also live in in a region of the world where rates are high.
I refuse to take work from Indian agencies who pay less than half the rates I can get from Danish agencies if I see the client is from Northern Europe and looking for a 'cheap' translation. I would happily work for them if they paid me and charged the end client the same levels of rates as Northern European clients do.
They get the same... See more I am probably lucky in being able to negotiate, at least to some extent. I also live in in a region of the world where rates are high.
I refuse to take work from Indian agencies who pay less than half the rates I can get from Danish agencies if I see the client is from Northern Europe and looking for a 'cheap' translation. I would happily work for them if they paid me and charged the end client the same levels of rates as Northern European clients do.
They get the same quality, as Sorana points out. Any translator who can deliver the same quality as I can needs to live for some years and study in Scandinavia, and buy the expensive dictionaries and subscribe to the same online resources as I do. There is no way to do it cheaply.
Taxes are lower in the UK, and some smaller agencies, both in Denmark and elsewhere, can save on administration, so they can charge the end client a lower rate while still paying translators realistic fees for their work. That means rates you can live on, which are appreciably better than burger-flipping or similar jobs.
Quite realistically, at my age and with my qualifications in some directions and lack of them in others, I would find it very difficult to find another job anyway.
The fact is that I can earn more per 1000 words on some markets than on others. I need to earn as much as possible - it means the difference between the sort of salary a junior secretary earns in this country and the income an experienced professional hopes to earn. I am taxed as an independent professional, so I have to earn the money somehow.
Lowering my rates for the Scandinavian market would undercut colleagues who still have children to bring up and more private bills than I have. We all have to save up for our pensions... and pay the bills in between. Wages, taxes and the cost of living are simply higher here than in some parts of the world.
However, those rates are not realistic on all markets. As long as you charge a reasonable living rate for the market you are working in, you may need to adapt to different markets. It would not be necessary in an ideal world, but this world is not ideal (yet).
[Edited at 2015-11-03 13:01 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 09:05
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
I adapt my rate and my terms and conditions to the market that the client is in. How much adapting do you do, Samuel?
There is a lower limit below which I will not work (there is a hard limit, but there is also a soft limit -- I accept rates below the soft limit only if the work is so easy that I can make up for the low rate with high volume). What matters to me is not the rate per unit, but the rate per hour. That is why for most of my low-paying clients I accept only "easy" or "fast" jobs.
I also have a lower limit per market. In my high paying market I will not accept rates below a certain threshold, even though some of my clients in low paying markets actually pay less.
To all you newcomers, I suggest looking at rates published on the Proz.com translation rate page: http://search.proz.com/employers/rates You will notice that rates are not that different across the board and that they apply to language pairs, not countries.
The reason for that is simply that ProZ.com's profile system does not allow one to specify different rates for different markets. So the fact that ProZ.com's own list of rates apply to language pairs and not to countries is not any indication of the nature of the industry, but simply a side-effect of the limitations of ProZ.com's rates reporting system.
A ProZ.com competitor whose logo is a steaming coffee cup has a much better rates reporting system, in that it shows all rates for any language combination, on a bell curve. ProZ.com shows only a single, average rate. Still, it shows only per-language combination statistics, as if translators of a given language combination can be compared to each other, regardless of where they live or what markets they work in.
The interesting thing about ProZ.com's reported rates is that 90% of the averages are between USD 0.10 and USD 0.13. This creates the impression (incorrectly, I believe) that that is the global average rate for translation, and that any rate below that is a bad rate, or that any rate above that is a very good rate. Often, when translators mention their rates in the forums, they mention rates that are outside the "global average" rate of USD 0.10-0.13.
So let me add that the rates published at Proz.com's translation rate page are already at the low end of the professional spectrum. Experienced translators charge much more.
The problem with this sweeping statement is that it relates to a moving target, and involves circular reasoning. It is impossible to prove it right or wrong. It is very difficult to define an "experienced" or "professional" translator.
If one were to look at the rates of red pee members, or the rates of KudoZ leaders, or the rates of translators with many years of experience, or the rates of only paying members, etc, you'd find that some translators charge below the ProZ.com average, some charge the ProZ.com average, and slightly more than half charge slightly more than the ProZ.com average.
| | | | | Bottom rates - no thank you! | Nov 3, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
The interesting thing about ProZ.com's reported rates is that 90% of the averages are between USD 0.10 and USD 0.13. This creates the impression (incorrectly, I believe) that that is the global average rate for translation, and that any rate below that is a bad rate, or that any rate above that is a very good rate. Often, when translators mention their rates in the forums, they mention rates that are outside the "global average" rate of USD 0.10-0.13.
I work in the global marketplace, I compete in the global marketplace. But I should specify: in the professional segment of that marketplace.
I look at those Proz.com rates as global professional rates (or at least the lower end of those rates), based on my own experience and based on the input of colleagues of which some is even evident in this thread. If there is an additional vast ocean full of amateurs working for seaweed, so be it. I used to get upset about that and yes, they do take away jobs from us, but they're only hurting themselves, being exploited and filling unprofessional agencies' pockets. There's plenty of work for us to go around once you really get going. Is it easy to get going? No. Is it easy to stick to your guns and refuse to drown in that ocean I am talking about? Well, it's better than believing you have to slave for an agency that's simply out to dupe you. It's getting easier anyway. As I said before, the lower those low-ballers go, the better.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
So let me add that the rates published at Proz.com's translation rate page are already at the low end of the professional spectrum. Experienced translators charge much more.
Samuel Murray wrote:
The problem with this sweeping statement is that it relates to a moving target, and involves circular reasoning. It is impossible to prove it right or wrong. It is very difficult to define an "experienced" or "professional" translator.
Professional: Provides accurate translations. Knows that his/her work is comparable to other sophisticated, well-paid professions. Knows how to market himself/herself. Charges accordingly. (Adequate prices are part of professional behavior IMHO).
Experienced: has many years of experience as a translator, mostly in a few specific subject fields. Provides excellent work. Can be trusted. Commands even higher rates. Knows all that and knows how to market himself/herself.
If someone provides accurate translations but does it for seaweed, he/she's no professional in my eyes.
Samuel Murray wrote:
If one were to look at the rates of red pee members, or the rates of KudoZ leaders, or the rates of translators with many years of experience, or the rates of only paying members, etc, you'd find that some translators charge below the ProZ.com average, some charge the ProZ.com average, and slightly more than half charge slightly more than the ProZ.com average.
Whatever they charge, if they charge less than the minimum rate (my suggestion was less than the standard rate), they are certainly not charging prices that are commensurate with a professional translators' skills and the sophisticated work he/she provides. Do I give you some leeway, yes, sure why not, a cent more or less might not be that big of a deal, but working for USD .05/word is a joke!
That's my stance.
| | | | | Think globally! | Nov 3, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
You will notice that rates are not that different across the board and that they apply to language pairs, not countries. The reason for that is simply that ProZ.com's profile system does not allow one to specify different rates for different markets. So the fact that ProZ.com's own list of rates apply to language pairs and not to countries is not any indication of the nature of the industry, but simply a side-effect of the limitations of ProZ.com's rates reporting system.
It doesn't matter what country my clients are in, it's me who provides the services. And I am working in the professional segment of the international/global marketplace. From that perspective, the rates quoted on Proz.com's translation rate page are a good start. And it should be about language pairs, not about in which corner of the world you are.
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I know of at least one translator who accepts lower rates for Chinese clients than American clients for a very good reason: he lives part of the year in China and needs to have RMB to pay off bills in China. Chinese companies do not generally pay as well as Western companies, nor is it easy to transfer USD into China, thus the acceptance of lower rates. Makes quite a bit of sense to me, although obviously the ideal would still be to find companies offering higher rates in China.
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 10:05
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER
I looked over the offers I had received from various local agencies, they look pretty much the same.
However, in 2011, when the world was supposedly going through that harsh economic crisis, there was one agency who said "our motto is 'same quality, lower rates', so you will have to adapt to the market and lower your rates".
The X I have been using in my messages is 9 RON, meaning 2 EUR. 9 RON for 2,000 characters with spaces.
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 10:05
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... but working for USD .05/word is a joke!
That's the highest rate I have ever been offered on ProZ and outside ProZ. And it came from an international agency, whose main office is located in the US.
Unfortunately, as Preston pointed out, in some countries, the payment method the agency is using is not translator-friendly. This agency preferred checks. Well, although the documents got to me, I was unable to cash them, because of my bank's policy. It would have taken at least a month to see the money in my account. Not only that, but the bank would have charged me a fee - drawn from the amount inscribed on the check - that would have severely affected my effort/reward balance. I tried to solve the matter with two other banks and nothing worked out. I got so upset I did not even want to see the check again. It's still lying around somewhere.
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 10:05
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER | Is translating easy? | Nov 3, 2015 |
However, Bernhard did point something out.
Being Romanian and living in Romania, surfing the web almost every day, I sometimes come across messages written by high school or college students, saying "I speak English well, is there any job I could do?" And there is at least some reply saying "do translations, it's easy".
And I get angry and frustrated.
Why this general impression that translating is easy and that it can be done by anyone who speaks English w... See more However, Bernhard did point something out.
Being Romanian and living in Romania, surfing the web almost every day, I sometimes come across messages written by high school or college students, saying "I speak English well, is there any job I could do?" And there is at least some reply saying "do translations, it's easy".
And I get angry and frustrated.
Why this general impression that translating is easy and that it can be done by anyone who speaks English well?
This part of Bernhard's post
Professional: Provides accurate translations. Knows that his/her work is comparable to other sophisticated, well-paid professions. Knows how to market himself/herself. Charges accordingly. (Adequate prices are part of professional behavior IMHO).
Experienced: has many years of experience as a translator, mostly in a few specific subject fields. Provides excellent work. Can be trusted. Commands even higher rates. Knows all that and knows how to market himself/herself.
seems unfairly underrated in my country.
Did this ever happen to you in your countries? ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 09:05
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Yes, circular reasoning | Nov 3, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Whatever they charge, if they charge less than the minimum rate (my suggestion was less than the standard rate), they are certainly not charging prices that are commensurate with a professional translators' skills and the sophisticated work he/she provides.
Yes, like I said, it's a circular argument: a true professional is someone who accepts only professional rates, and professional rates are those that only professionals charge.
Do I give you some leeway, yes, sure why not, a cent more or less might not be that big of a deal, but working for USD .05/word is a joke!
Then we're more or less on the same page. But no-one here mentioned USD 0.05.
[Edited at 2015-11-03 08:10 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 09:05
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Local market versus global market | Nov 3, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It doesn't matter what country my clients are in, it's me who provides the services. And I am working in the professional segment of the international/global marketplace.
That's a perfectly valid way of doing it. But you should not fool yourself into thinking that you're working in a global market, then -- you actually work in an extremely local market. You don't go to your client's markets, but expect your clients to adapt to yours.
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It doesn't matter what country my clients are in, it's me who provides the services.
My point exactly.
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Samuel Murray wrote:
Then we're more or less on the same page. But no-one here mentioned USD 0.05.
[Edited at 2015-11-03 08:10 GMT]
This has turned into the usual thread about low rates, but what is meant by low rates is not usually discussed, e.g. Samuel says he will lower his rates for several reasons (an easy job is a valid reason in my opinion), this may mean that he lowers his rate to $0.12?
Whereas Bernhard immediately attacks with his also valid points about bottom-feeding.
I think the OP was merely interested about adjusting rates to markets.
[Edited at 2015-11-03 10:18 GMT]
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| We live and work on different markets | Nov 3, 2015 |
Some people in the thread (and other similar ones) are rather aggressive in declaring all people with lower rates to be unprofessional. But rates depend on the market - and I mean the market of the service provider! I do not care how much it could cost in the USA - I live in Russia and I pay my bills here. I am also fortunate to pay only 13% tax on my income and no pension or social charges (I could pay even less if I registered as an individual entrepreneur but it would mean additional paperwor... See more Some people in the thread (and other similar ones) are rather aggressive in declaring all people with lower rates to be unprofessional. But rates depend on the market - and I mean the market of the service provider! I do not care how much it could cost in the USA - I live in Russia and I pay my bills here. I am also fortunate to pay only 13% tax on my income and no pension or social charges (I could pay even less if I registered as an individual entrepreneur but it would mean additional paperwork + 22 thousand RUB/300 EUR Social and Pension Fund payment per year). So my proz.com quoted rates are the same I use with my regular customers (I actually activated my account here in order to find one or two customers to replace one regular customer which I lost to an Indian translation agency with much lower rates). ▲ Collapse
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 10:05
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER | Local and foreign | Nov 3, 2015 |
Gabriele is right, I did not intend for the thread to go down the low rate path.
I'm sure that, if I were to play the part of a translator-seeking agency for once, place an ad and say "I offer 0.05 USD/source word", targeting the Romanian domestic market and the English to Romanian or French to Romanian language pair, I would receive tens of applications. It would probably be the same for the reverse pairs.
I am also sure that I would receive a fair amount of applicatio... See more Gabriele is right, I did not intend for the thread to go down the low rate path.
I'm sure that, if I were to play the part of a translator-seeking agency for once, place an ad and say "I offer 0.05 USD/source word", targeting the Romanian domestic market and the English to Romanian or French to Romanian language pair, I would receive tens of applications. It would probably be the same for the reverse pairs.
I am also sure that I would receive a fair amount of applications if I offered 15 RON (around 3 EUR) for 2,000 characters with spaces - approx. 300 words.
I have no idea whether any applicant would even think about pointing out that the rate I propose is fair or unfair to them.
The difference between how local agencies relate to translations - in terms of units of measure and rates - and how the foreign ones do it is huge. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Read it again | Nov 3, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Whatever they charge, if they charge less than the minimum rate (my suggestion was less than the standard rate), they are certainly not charging prices that are commensurate with a professional translators' skills and the sophisticated work he/she provides. Yes, like I said, it's a circular argument: a true professional is someone who accepts only professional rates, and professional rates are those that only professionals charge.
I'm no fool Samuel.
I clearly stated what I meant by professional rate.
PS: As you know from the earlier discussion above, minimum and standard rates in the context of the quote above refer to the rates published by Proz.com. So, no, anything less is not what I consider a "professional" rate. And with "professional" I meant, as I had defined above as well, someone who provides accurate translations, no matter where he/she lives. That's my opinion. Yours might be different.
If someone provides accurate translation for sub-minimum rates (Proz.com average rates), then they are IMO not applying "professional" rates.
[Edited at 2015-11-03 20:34 GMT]
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