| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Is "post editing" a pricing scam? Thread poster: Jeff Whittaker
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Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 03:12
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
This is inspired by a recent poll on discounts for post editing machine pseudo-translation.
Could someone please explain to me why companies want/deserve a discounted rate for this type of translation?
The machine pseudo-translation is available for FREE to anyone with an internet connection. In theory (if we disregard confidentiality requirements), EVERY project could be a "post editing" project. Therefore, the cost of the machine pseudo translation = ZERO, so why char... See more This is inspired by a recent poll on discounts for post editing machine pseudo-translation.
Could someone please explain to me why companies want/deserve a discounted rate for this type of translation?
The machine pseudo-translation is available for FREE to anyone with an internet connection. In theory (if we disregard confidentiality requirements), EVERY project could be a "post editing" project. Therefore, the cost of the machine pseudo translation = ZERO, so why charge less for the final translation?
Why should projects with the "post editing" label be less expensive than standard projects?
[Updated to add:]
Or does it work like this: In exchange for the agency's permission (and "presumably" the client's permission as well) to use a free machine translation, do a very quick and mediocre job, you agree to accept a lower rate. So that, in the end, it's just a low rate for a poorly translated (or unreliable) document and the MT is irrelevant. Everyone is "happy" until an error is found, then it's all the translators fault.
[Edited at 2016-07-01 16:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not all machine translation is free | Jul 1, 2016 |
There are machine translation motors, properly fed with translation memories, that will produce better results than the free machine translations available over the web.
Regards,
Enrique
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They use to say "it will take you less time and effort to fix it, that's why it's cheaper!"
Actually, a few years ago I happened to correct a short PEMT about an academic course and it was such a rubbish that it took me MUCH less time to translate it from scratch.
They just try to trick us in this cheaper market, but I won't jump in it!
That's my experience with free MT, cannot say anything about other types, but I think it would however sound "robotic", which is ... See more They use to say "it will take you less time and effort to fix it, that's why it's cheaper!"
Actually, a few years ago I happened to correct a short PEMT about an academic course and it was such a rubbish that it took me MUCH less time to translate it from scratch.
They just try to trick us in this cheaper market, but I won't jump in it!
That's my experience with free MT, cannot say anything about other types, but I think it would however sound "robotic", which is not my kind.
[Modificato alle 2016-07-01 15:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:12
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
There are machine translation motors, properly fed with translation memories, that will produce better results than the free machine translations available over the web.
Regards,
Enrique
I own a system for building my own custom MT engines on Windows (Slate Desktop), and guess what? No matter how hard I try, I can't manage to create an engine that is much better than Google Translate.
I agree with LegalTransform, and have been saying the same thing for quite a while now: only chumps post edit for third parties, at a reduced rate.
Michael
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Angela Malik
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:12
German to English
+ ...
| Could be justified for certain types of texts | Jul 1, 2016 |
I work with technical texts mainly, German to English. For that field and that language pair, professional machine translation can be very good and may only require some "polishing" to tie up any loose ends or correct a few odd bits here and there.
If a text is straightforward, repetitive, and machine translated using an intelligent corpus with lots of decent material, then yes, I think you could machine-translate it and then have someone read it through for a reduced cost.
... See more I work with technical texts mainly, German to English. For that field and that language pair, professional machine translation can be very good and may only require some "polishing" to tie up any loose ends or correct a few odd bits here and there.
If a text is straightforward, repetitive, and machine translated using an intelligent corpus with lots of decent material, then yes, I think you could machine-translate it and then have someone read it through for a reduced cost.
If a client just wants a "gist" translation but also needs to know that the gist they're getting is more or less accurate, then again, post-editing may be a cost-effective solution for this.
That said, I have seen clients try to find post-editors for things like legal contracts etc. and I absolutely refuse to participate in that -- I always advise my own clients that post-editing is never a trustworthy or cost-effective approach for texts that require extreme accuracy and nuance, like anything being published as marketing material, or anything with legal consequences attached to it, or highly complex technical texts that could potentially have fatal consequences for end users. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 09:12
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
There are machine translation motors, properly fed with translation memories, that will produce better results than the free machine translations available over the web.
Regards,
Enrique
Yes, there are some programs that produce decent MT. However, those who offer PEMT jobs are usually looking for "cheaper than cheap" final products, so they surely won't pay for a machine to produce decent translations. Instead they turn to translators, offering 0.01 - 0.02 (of any currency) to "proof-read" the rubbish produced by free Google translate & Co. And, let's not forget about the discount they demand for "matches". Actually, they should ask the translator not to charge anything because...rubbish matches rubbish. Just kidding about the first part of the sentence.
Back to the original question: personally, I don't think that PEMT is a scam per sé - provided the customer pays for it, and if a translator is willing or forced by circumstances to accept the peanuts.
Expecting a translator to re-translate a lousy MT (they usually are) for peanuts is imprudent, if not even highly dubious, or even fraudulent, especially when we keep in mind that every PEMT project is a project less that the customer needs to have translated again. At least not the whole document, since they then only have to throw in the segments not yet included in their TM's.
These are my 2 cents on PEMT projects: a perfect match for file 13.
[Edited at 2016-07-01 16:31 GMT]
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 03:12
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
If that were true, then you could use it for every job at your full rate. They are suggesting that you be paid less because they are providing you with a document that costs you and them nothing to create.
Serena Basili wrote:
They use to say "it will take you less time and effort to fix it, that's why it's cheaper!"
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 03:12
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | In other words... | Jul 1, 2016 |
Machine translation has very little to do with post-editing: in exchange for the agency's permission (and "presumably" the client's permission as well) to use google translate, do a very quick and mediocre job, you agree to accept a lower rate.
In the end, it's just a low rate for a poorly translated (or unreliable) document and the MT is irrelevant. Everyone is "happy" until an error is found, then it's all the translators fault.
[Edited at 2016-07-01 16:59 GMT]
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Laura Kingdon
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:12
Member (2015)
French to English
+ ...
| Not a "scam", but... | Jul 1, 2016 |
Serena Basili wrote:
They use to say "it will take you less time and effort to fix it, that's why it's cheaper!"
Actually, a few years ago I happened to correct a short PEMT about an academic course and it was such a rubbish that it took me MUCH less time to translate it from scratch.
They just try to trick us in this cheaper market, but I won't jump in it!
That's my experience with free MT, cannot say anything about other types, but I think it would however sound "robotic", which is not my kind.
[Modificato alle 2016-07-01 15:35 GMT]
When I'm asked to do post-editing, I tell them I charge my normal translation rate for it since I'd have to just about retranslate the whole thing anyway. Then I never hear back from them for some odd reason......
It doesn't help that MT is particularly bad at Korean-English and almost never produces a result that's even a little bit intelligible.
| | | | | We shouldn't edit something created by a machine (general statement) | Jul 1, 2016 |
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
There are machine translation motors, properly fed with translation memories, that will produce better results than the free machine translations available over the web.
Regards,
Enrique
The main problem is that machines don't translate, they try to find matches, and, based on some algorithm, make suggestions. You can't just trust this is correct (even if they are based on TMs; and what if the TMs are bad?) And I am sure professional translators don't trust those suggestions and would expect that they have to be reworked quite extensively.
On the other hand, if someone is simply updating a list, that shouldn't be hard, even without a machine.
But there is a second issue. And I've discussed this once before (see link below).
Let's say: you are trying to beat a deadline and figure you use a machine translation and then "adjust" it. To be quick, you want as much of the machine translation to be correct so that you have to make fewer changes and can be done faster too. You might find your brain to be tricked by machine-created text to the point where you don't see a mistake when you should (because you expect this machine to help you, not work against you). It's similar to seeing what you want to see, not what is really there (that's a known phenomenon). And to add to this, your brain is starting to follow the structure of the suggested text instead of creating the text the way you usually do. For legal, technical, medical, and many other subject areas, that is just a recipe for failure. Add creative texts, of course.
So even if one accepts a job like this as an "editing" job, one should know what they are getting themselves into.
Just my thoughts.
http://www.proz.com/forum/translation_theory_and_practice/282023-post_editing_machine_translations_is_a_misnomer_but_there_are_now_training_sessions_for_it.html#2399105
[Edited at 2016-07-01 18:35 GMT]
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 03:12
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | A sample post editing project | Jul 1, 2016 |
I was once contacted by a "post editing" agency with a 200,000 word project (to be split up in a million tiny pieces of course). This company sent me a list of their four levels of translation that went something like this.
Level 1: Raw MT output you receive:
"After product on market launch patients complained sporadically allergic reactions."
Level 2: Light editing (only correct serious errors, ignore incorrect syntax and what is otherwise understandable)
"... See more I was once contacted by a "post editing" agency with a 200,000 word project (to be split up in a million tiny pieces of course). This company sent me a list of their four levels of translation that went something like this.
Level 1: Raw MT output you receive:
"After product on market launch patients complained sporadically allergic reactions."
Level 2: Light editing (only correct serious errors, ignore incorrect syntax and what is otherwise understandable)
"After product launched on market, patients complained sporadically about allergic reactions."
Level 3: Detailed context-level post editing
"After the product was launched on the market, patients complained sporadically about allergic reactions."
Level 4: Full translation
"After the product was launched on the market, there were sporadic complaints from patients regarding allergic reactions."
The goal, they said, was to provide a post-edited translation of at least level 3.
Looks easy, right?
Then they included the document to be "post edited", which looked like this:
"The agreed according to paragraph 7 deemed value guaranteed is done in accordance with indexation clause which when beyond this threshold, represents the change to the full extent and forms the initial basis for the calculation of further exceedaances."
and
"Turning work includes 4-axis Präzisionsmaschinen on-turning milling vertical machining for Fahrständer"
Any takers, it pays .03 a word and it's really easy.... just make some quick corrections...
[Edited at 2016-07-01 17:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | CAT tools restated | Jul 3, 2016 |
Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
There are machine translation motors, properly fed with translation memories, that will produce better results than the free machine translations available over the web.
Regards,
Enrique
You have just restated CAT tools. These machine translation motors are merely CAT tools - as you said it yourself - "properly fed with translation memories".
I know colleagues who specialized, each in one field of human knowledge and, over the years, developed a giant TM for that, with glossaries, dictionaries, the works. They invest considerable time in polishing it, keep backups in 3-4 different places, and their productivity is amazing.
Of course, nobody should dare to try imposing discounts on fuzzy matches upon them, as they have put so much time and effort into boosting their own productivity.
On the other hand, free online MT uses a translation memory that is randomly fueled by countless translators and non-translators who have either posted bilingual stuff on the web, or who bothered to use that MT and give specific feedback.
So technically the process is the same. The difference is in the fuel, the MT.
We could draw an analogy equating the human translator to an INternal combustion (Otto, Diesel) engine, where performance is relatively stable if the fuel provided (food, rest) is within certain standards. In this analogy, machine translation could be equated to an EXternal combustion engine (steam, Stirling), where performance could vary sharply on account the heat-producing capacity of different fuels (the quality of the TM used).
Yet, there is the human-mind-factor in translation to consider. Words are unable to convey the entire meaning; interpreting them often plays an important role.
One peculiarity of the Portuguese language, the difference in the logic used by its two major variants (explanation under #6, highlights this. The truth is that if the human interpretation were not an essential role in translation, a machine translation contrivance could be fed with a manageable TM to provide 99% accurate "conversions" between PT-PT and PT-BR. Believe me, there is no such thing.
Machine translation could certainly be empowered to handle the differences in vocabulary and grammar, however no computer so far has been able to deal with the difference in the logic used by each variant.
Of course, Portuguese is just ONE language, however this quirk between its variants serves to emphasize the human process of converting ideas into words - and back - which occurs in each and every language.
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 00:12
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Please explain | Jul 3, 2016 |
Why is it called POST editing? What is the difference between post editing a machine translation and editing a machine translation?
| | | | | It's a way of further demeaning the endeavor | Jul 3, 2016 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
Why is it called POST editing? What is the difference between post editing a machine translation and editing a machine translation?
PEMT outsourcers want it cheap, so their message is:
- Dont' charge translation rates; machines have already done it;
- Don't charge editing rates; you'll be post-editing,
... in an attempt to convince translation desperados that they must charge no more than half-peanuts for this kind of work.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 09:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Michele Fauble wrote:
Why is it called POST editing?
It's called "post" editing (i.e. editing a target text after machine translation) to distinguish it from "pre" editing (i.e. editing a source text prior to machine translation).
What is the difference between post editing a machine translation and editing ...?
In our industry, I think "editing" usually implies that the edited product complies with a very high level of stylistic quality. Post-editing is usually done at a client-specified levels of language quality that is lower (sometimes much lower) than normal, traditional editing.
When offered a post-editing job (and considering taking it) you should ask the client to what level of language quality he wants you to edit the text (and ask for examples). If he says anything that indicates that he expects the final product to be of a similar language quality as a human translation, you should kindly inform him that his expectations are unrealistic and/or that he misunderstands what post-editing is for.
Furthermore, editing should be charged by the hour, unless the quality of the translation is predictable. Clearly, per-word rates for editing machine translation would be higher than that of editing non-professional human translation, and that in turn would be higher than that of editing professional human translation.
Personally, I would generally find 30% of my translation rate acceptable for editing professional human translation, 50% of my translation rate for editing non-professional human translation, and 70% of my translation rate for post-editing up to "level 3" in Jeff's example above.
That said, I would not want to do post-editing at all, because it requires skill that I don't have. I can use machine translation to speed up my own translation, because then I have the freedom to change as much as I want, but I would struggle to post-edit machine translation, because that involves making only necessary changes.
[Edited at 2016-07-04 07:54 GMT]
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