| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Discontinue the use of 'powwow'. Thread poster: scooke
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| I've never heard it before | Aug 31, 2014 |
I've never heard powwow used to mean a meeting outside ProZ and to my British English ear it sounds a bit odd .. it brings to mind children playing at 'Cowboys and Indians'. It makes me cringe slightly and I'd avoid using it for that reason. Whether it is offensive or not, I have no idea.
| | | | Michael Beijer 
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:07
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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Samuel Murray wrote: philgoddard wrote:
You can't use "meet" because that derives from the Old English "moot", meaning "powwow", and is therefore offensive to those of us with Anglo-Saxon ancestors. The same applies to "get-together", I'm afraid. Comes from the Old English "togædere", which means "powwow".
I think he was kidding. Or perhaps just trying to put things into perspective.
Michael
| | | | Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:07
French to English
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Rachel Waddington wrote:
I've never heard powwow used to mean a meeting outside ProZ and to my British English ear it sounds a bit odd .. it brings to mind children playing at 'Cowboys and Indians'. It makes me cringe slightly and I'd avoid using it for that reason.
I agree about the slightly cringe or wince factor. I would just like to mention, OTTly, that I find the idea of a "playground" for adults considerably more cringe-inducing...
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 15:07
Russian to English
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| It's all in the eye of the beholder | Sep 1, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
This thread has aroused the hope in me that the very off-putting term "pow-wow" (not because it offends some social category but because it's just silly) will be replaced by something more 21st- century.
In all fairness, the only conclusion I can logically make from the above is that you are simply trying to impose your own personal preferences on the rest of us. Personally, I find the way quite a few things are said in the UK a bit... um... shall we say funny (Knickers, anyone? Fish and chips? Perambulators? Lifts?). Yet it would never occur to me to come out on a public forum and claim they are silly or that they should be called anything different - in the 21st century or beyond. That would amount to ...um... an imposition, perhaps?
I'd loath - not LOTH (remember, I am one of them pesky Americans who like doing things their own silly way?) - to impose my personal likes and dislikes on anyone. Apparently, you, sir, adhere to a different school of thought here.
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scooke
Canada
Local time: 15:07
Kazakh to English
TOPIC STARTER | Good discussions | Sep 1, 2014 |
It is good to see this forum topic active.
While I certainly intended my outrage to be expressed, there is no way an imposition is possible! Whether or not the term is changed is purely up to the proz.com owners... I am not even sure a site-wide vote would matter. Perhaps a sneaky webmaster could do it.
But it is offensive when co-opted and used for a non-powwow context. And, in picking my battles, let me briefly explain that the dictionaries quoted weren't comp... See more It is good to see this forum topic active.
While I certainly intended my outrage to be expressed, there is no way an imposition is possible! Whether or not the term is changed is purely up to the proz.com owners... I am not even sure a site-wide vote would matter. Perhaps a sneaky webmaster could do it.
But it is offensive when co-opted and used for a non-powwow context. And, in picking my battles, let me briefly explain that the dictionaries quoted weren't compiled by Ojibwa, or Cree, or Six Nations, etc., so of course definitions are included which are not actually accurate. They are for the English speaker, by the English speaker. I could make my own dictionary for Ojibwa and define 'togædere' as 'hilarious', but that wouldn't be accurate.
As for the questions about usage amongst different First Nations, there is much history behind a good answer; suffice to say, in our own circles those who still retain the languages use these languages, and the terms for events, life stages, etc. In English, many have opted to just use powwow, since English and its terms are so prevalent.
Behind the use of an English word like powwow are ancient, yet very present, challenges for recognition as separate and distinct nations/countries. Here I am speaking regionally, for as I mentioned, we are not all 'tribes' of a larger ethnicity called "Indian". My comparison to a European context is intended to help the reader understand, for it is a profound jump in awareness to realize that 'what is now called North America' still has its original name, by the original peoples, in their original languages, for their original 'country'. In the same way Germans, Spaniards, Italians, Swiss, and so on are never called "European tribes", the different first nations in 'what is now called North America' are not smaller tribes of a larger ethnicity. What European ever self-identifies as, "I am from the Dutch tribe", or, "We are from the Norwegian tribe of Europeans".
So the usage of a term like powwow is but one element in this continent-wide struggle for education, understanding, and respect. On a site like this it might be hoped that this change is possible.
[Edited at 2014-09-01 02:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | scooke
Canada
Local time: 15:07
Kazakh to English
TOPIC STARTER | My own vote: Get-together | Sep 1, 2014 |
The hyphen messes up the visual appearance though.
"Meetup" might legally not be possible due to meetup.com already using it.
Another term might be, "Social". Unless the event is one for education purposes. Then call it 'seminar'. Or, 'consultation'.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:37
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | In a world of 6 (or is it 7 now) billion... | Sep 1, 2014 |
Texte Style wrote:
However, if someone is offended, something must be done to repair this.
... people almost anything you say or do will affront someone or the other in some part or the other of the globe. So where do we stop?
One solution would be to keep absolutely mum, but that goes contrary to human nature - we are a talkative ape (I hope this term doesn't offend anyone; is offending apes, also off the bounds, by the way?). Again, the silence strategy would ring the death knell of the translation industry, as no talking would mean there would be no need for translating.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:07
Hebrew to English
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 15:07
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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| People sometimes use words that don't sound good to the ear to gain effect | Sep 1, 2014 |
For example, a very successful Chinese consulting firm is called "The Big Fool" or literally " extremely stupid, Inc".
I think Powwow is still better than all of the alternatives proposed. Conference is way too big and it may lead people to think they have to pay to attend. To me "get-together" is more like a party.
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The Misha wrote:
Personally, I find the way quite a few things are said in the UK a bit... um... shall we say funny (Knickers, anyone? Fish and chips? Perambulators? Lifts?).
We don't really say knickers in the UK (surely panties is worse though?) and I've never heard anybody use the word perambulator. A debate is not an imposition though.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:07
Member (2008)
Italian to English
What began as a serious discussion seems to have descended into flippancy, or worse; perhaps that's supposed to be a way of taking the seriousness out of the original post.
I find that *loathesome*. I *loathe* it. I'd be *loth* to attend any event that called itself a "pow-pow". I want the name to change to whatever people think is better. I continue to think that this is a serious matter.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 21:07
French to English
Rachel Waddington wrote: The Misha wrote:
Personally, I find the way quite a few things are said in the UK a bit... um... shall we say funny (Knickers, anyone? Fish and chips? Perambulators? Lifts?). We don't really say knickers in the UK (surely panties is worse though?) and I've never heard anybody use the word perambulator. A debate is not an imposition though.
oh dear, don't Brits get their knickers in a twist any more? that's a great pity!
I agree for perambulator, never heard it or read it except in Mary Poppins.
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I would vote for 'meet-up' or 'get-together'. The name 'powwow' would actually put me off attending or organising such an event, as I personally am uncomfortable with its connotations. Also, I have no idea what a 'powwow' is - a big formal gathering or just a few people getting together for drinks? 'Meet-up' is at least self-explanatory.
I don't see that as trying to impose my preferences on other people - more as taking part in a debate. If enough people are uncomfortable with the ... See more I would vote for 'meet-up' or 'get-together'. The name 'powwow' would actually put me off attending or organising such an event, as I personally am uncomfortable with its connotations. Also, I have no idea what a 'powwow' is - a big formal gathering or just a few people getting together for drinks? 'Meet-up' is at least self-explanatory.
I don't see that as trying to impose my preferences on other people - more as taking part in a debate. If enough people are uncomfortable with the use of a word, that is reason enough to choose something more neutral, surely? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:07
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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scooke wrote:
But it is offensive when co-opted and used for a non-powwow context.
It is only offensive to some. Many words that originally had a sacred or religious meaning have had their meanings broadened to include non-sacred applications. That is how language works.
I'm sure people who feel strongly about Mecca or about the Bible may be equally offended if a book is called "the translator's bible" simply because it is a comprehensive book, or an annual trade fair "a real translators' mecca" because it is a highly recommended event. But that's the way language works.
Language evolves, and some words get wider meanings. It is not disrespectul, and it offends only those who feel that they "own" the original word or for whom the original meaning has special significance.
[Edited at 2014-09-01 09:53 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:07
Hebrew to English
| In seriousness... | Sep 1, 2014 |
If you look online at discussions concerning the word 'powwow' the same pattern emerges: white people telling other white people what Native Americans half way across the world find offensive. I'm yet to find anyone with Native American heritage objecting to the word.
From a social justice perspective I think this is quite problematic. (White Saviour Complex - 'saving' Native Americans from offence we presume for them on their behalf).
Moreover, there are articles poin... See more If you look online at discussions concerning the word 'powwow' the same pattern emerges: white people telling other white people what Native Americans half way across the world find offensive. I'm yet to find anyone with Native American heritage objecting to the word.
From a social justice perspective I think this is quite problematic. (White Saviour Complex - 'saving' Native Americans from offence we presume for them on their behalf).
Moreover, there are articles pointing out that the precise meaning of "powwow" has evolved even for the Native Americans themselves.
Also, if this word is so offensive I'm amazed Dartmouth still use it for their college get-togethers:
"The Pow-Wow is an opportunity for students, faculty, staff, and administration from all the Dartmouth Communities, and the Upper Valley to see and participate in Native American culture from many different tribes and traditions"
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~nap/powwow/
And a school newspaper which changed its name back to "the Pow Wow" after altering it:
“See, the Pow Wow was started in 1927,” said Krantz. “I think it was around 1970 when the name became the “TJC News.” Then, when I came to head up the paper in 2007, there was a student-led movement to move it back to the Pow Wow."
http://mytjcnews.com/news/will-the-apache-name-be-the-next-to-come-under-attack/
I think if we should get worked up about anything it should be the use of war bonnets as fashion accessories, or dream catchers in every hippy/new age shop up and down the country which could both legitimately be called cultural appropriation, not a relatively infrequent word which came to us via language contact, like so many others. ▲ Collapse
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