| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Discontinue the use of 'powwow'. Thread poster: scooke
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Howard Camm 
Belgium
Local time: 09:09
Italian to English
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In a world where many languages contain borrowings from other languages, some more appropriate than others and frequently far removed from the original context, were you to excise those words on the grounds of 'political correctness' (oops! 'cultural sensitivity') then you would have a severely diminished vocabulary with which to work. It is the way in which language is used which determines appropriateness - I recall the aphorism 'a text without a context is a pretext'.
| | | | scooke
Canada
Local time: 03:09
Kazakh to English
TOPIC STARTER | Community is the reason | Dec 11, 2014 |
Well, some months have gone by since the original flurry of discussion and expressing of opinions. Personally, I have not written nor even tried to determine who the owners are of proz.com to further explore a terminology change from 'powwow'. I shall. But allow me to add a few more comments to some opinions made.
I share the concern some have about Political Correctness. It can go too far, if it happens. A current example is taking "Christ" out of Christmas, resulting in "Merry Xma... See more Well, some months have gone by since the original flurry of discussion and expressing of opinions. Personally, I have not written nor even tried to determine who the owners are of proz.com to further explore a terminology change from 'powwow'. I shall. But allow me to add a few more comments to some opinions made.
I share the concern some have about Political Correctness. It can go too far, if it happens. A current example is taking "Christ" out of Christmas, resulting in "Merry Xmas" wishes in countries which historically would have celebrated this holiday using those terms. Nevertheless, if any such term offends someone you are speaking with, why not adapt? I have friends to whom I won't send a Christmas card, either because they don't worship Christ Jesus, or are in another religious circle, or are just simply non-religious and prefer not to receive such expressions of a holiday they don't celebrate. Not offending them does not offend me.
And it is in this context I first raised the point - speaking with someone. Or to be more clear, being part of a community. When I signed on and looked over the forums of this site it was with an anticipation of joining a community of translation professionals. When I discovered the use of the term 'powwow' I was surprised, for previously shared reasons (of my own, and some eloquently shared by others). Though it is a step removed from 'redskin', I certainly would not want to be part of a community, or even a group of people standing around talking, who would address me as 'redskin'. Seeing powwow used in this fashion produced a similar reaction in me.
So, is my aim or intention to stop "everyone" from using the term, which would include policing other websites even?? Of course not. My intention behind raising the point is to determine whether this is a community of which I want to be a member. The replies indicating some degree of openness and sensitivity outnumbered those which did not. So I guess my question has an answer.
[Edited at 2014-12-11 17:02 GMT]
NOTE: As I looked over the offer for Pro membership I saw this text:
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Networking features
Members can:
Host powwows (casual meetings of site users that live near each other.)
Create teams
Send group mails
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Since the term has to be explained anyway, why not just write this?:
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Networking features
Members can:
Host casual meetings of site users that live near each other.
Create teams
Send group mails
----------------------
[Edited at 2014-12-11 17:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's just not short and snappy, is it? | Dec 11, 2014 |
I'm new to this discussion and I must admit I have no strong feelings either way relating to the term "powwow". Obviously because it is not part of my cultural background. However, I see posts referring to "Powwow in xxx" frequently. I don't honestly think "Casual meeting of site users that live near each other in xxx" is going to catch on. So it's either stick with powwow and accept that no offence is meant in using the word or find something acceptable as a replacement.
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:09
German to English
+ ...
| No problem for me | Dec 12, 2014 |
My 'The Times English Dictionary' (published in 2000 and apparently not well known) gives meaning 1 as 'a talk, conference or meeting', and meaning 2 as 'a magical ceremony of certain North American Indians' (and says that it originated in the 17th century).
When I first encountered the term as meaning an informal Proz meeting (about 10 years ago), it seemed rather strange to me (but not offensive) but now it seems quite normal.
An alternative that I think has not been mention... See more My 'The Times English Dictionary' (published in 2000 and apparently not well known) gives meaning 1 as 'a talk, conference or meeting', and meaning 2 as 'a magical ceremony of certain North American Indians' (and says that it originated in the 17th century).
When I first encountered the term as meaning an informal Proz meeting (about 10 years ago), it seemed rather strange to me (but not offensive) but now it seems quite normal.
An alternative that I think has not been mentioned yet is 'networking session/meeting'. For me, the advantages of calling it a powwow are both that it is a short word (all the other proposed terms are longer) and that everybody understands it.
If calling such meetings 'powwows' is offensive, it might also (as has already been pointed out) be offensive to talk about 'Indians' when referring to people whose origin is North America, not India.
Oliver ▲ Collapse
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Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:09
French to English
+ ...
I'd like to discontinue the use of "Playground" for adult translators...
| | | | | A matter of respect | Dec 13, 2014 |
As someone pointed out in this thread, there is a sacred element to the ceremony. I was bothered by the use of the word the first time I read it in that context when ProZ was brand new. I would welcome a new word being coined, as some have suggested.
[Edited at 2014-12-13 05:24 GMT]
| | | | Jessica Noyes
United States
Local time: 03:09
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
I am in favor of changing it, and "meet-up" gets across the feeling of such an event for me.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 12:39
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Treating powwow as an English word would solve the problem | Dec 14, 2014 |
The main objection of the topic poster is that "powwow" being a native American Indian term with a specific religious meaning, it should not be used in English.
The fact is, powwow is not so, and it is an English word with a specific meaning, and hence has no connection with any term in any other language or culture, even if the word itself may occur in other languages, and even if the English word originally derives from a term from other languages or cultures.
Now it ... See more The main objection of the topic poster is that "powwow" being a native American Indian term with a specific religious meaning, it should not be used in English.
The fact is, powwow is not so, and it is an English word with a specific meaning, and hence has no connection with any term in any other language or culture, even if the word itself may occur in other languages, and even if the English word originally derives from a term from other languages or cultures.
Now it is an English word with a clearly defined, non-offensive meaning and there is no harm in using it in English.
I will further explain this by citing a few example words, current in English, but which are originally derived from Sanskrit, where these words have a very specific, sacred meaning.
Consider the word mantra. The Sanskrit original is मंत्र which is a very sacred term used to indicate the holy verses of the Vedas, the scriptures of Hinduism.
But in English, it is used more flippantly in the meaning of a formula or a ruse or a quick-fix technique, but no one objects. Why? Because no-one perceives mantra as a Sanskrit religious word, but as an authentic English word. Few would even be aware of its origins in Sanskrit.
Another one is guru (गुरु) which in Sanskrit and Hindi (as well as other Indian languages) means a teacher and is a highly respected term. The same word occurs in English too, where it merely means an expert, and often in a half-derogatory sense.
The point is, every language borrows from other languages and internalizes and naturalizes what it borrows and in the process the borrowed terms undergo not only changes in morphology (spelling, pronunciation, etc), but also in meaning. These internalized and naturalized words become authentic units of the borrowing language and have no connection thereafter with their source terms or cultures.
[Edited at 2014-12-14 03:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:09
Hebrew to English
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
The point is, every language borrows from other languages and internalizes and naturalizes what it borrows and in the process the borrowed terms undergo not only changes in morphology (spelling, pronunciation, etc), but also in meaning. These internalized and naturalized words become authentic units of the borrowing language and have no connection thereafter with their source terms or cultures.
[Edited at 2014-12-14 03:54 GMT]
I think this might just break the internet, but I agree with Bala.
I was going to make a very similar point, only using the word "kosher" - a word with 'spiritual' or religious origins, yet in English is mostly used (outside of its normal use to talk about Jewish dietary laws) to mean a vague sense of legitimacy.
[Edited at 2014-12-14 10:27 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 12:39
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | No damage done... :-) | Dec 14, 2014 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
I think this might just break the internet, but I agree with Bala.
Thanks, Ty for agreeing. No damage done... the internet is still working (if you are able to see this post)!
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:09
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Pronunciation | Dec 14, 2014 |
"Pow Wow" reminds me of a very silly song for children called "Daddy wouldn't buy me a bow-wow".
One of the problems, at least here in the UK, is the pronunciation of this childish term. David Cameron, the Prime Minister, would pronounce it "Pie Wie". In Glasgow they'd pronounce it "pei wei". In London it would be "pawa". In Durham, "po wo". And so on.
Whereas "Get-Together" (GTG) would cause no problems.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 12:39
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | How does it matter how people pronounce it? | Dec 15, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
"Pow Wow" reminds me of a very silly song for children called "Daddy wouldn't buy me a bow-wow".
One of the problems, at least here in the UK, is the pronunciation of this childish term. David Cameron, the Prime Minister, would pronounce it "Pie Wie". In Glasgow they'd pronounce it "pei wei". In London it would be "pawa". In Durham, "po wo". And so on.
Whereas "Get-Together" (GTG) would cause no problems.
How does it matter how people pronounce it, so long as it conveys the right meaning? There are lots of English terms that I pronounce differently from David Cameron, and Obama would perhaps pronounce them even more differently, and Modi or Tony Abbott would perhaps pronounce them differently, yet. How does it matter?
[Edited at 2014-12-15 08:28 GMT]
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:09
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Yes, but it doesn't. | Dec 15, 2014 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
How does it matter how people pronounce it, so long as it conveys the right meaning?
Yes, but it doesn't. As many here have said, it conveys the wrong meaning.
| | | | | No reason not to change it... | Dec 15, 2014 |
Personally, I care not one whit either way, but I don't think there is any major reason why it *CAN'T* be changed, and a few good reasons why it *should* be changed...so, why not?
MLG4035
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 12:39
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Because of the old wisdom in the saying... | Dec 15, 2014 |
Michael Grant wrote:
Personally, I care not one whit either way, but I don't think there is any major reason why it *CAN'T* be changed, and a few good reasons why it *should* be changed...so, why not?
MLG4035
... don't mend it until it is broken!
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