Help evaluate EN>JP translation: is it disaster?
Thread poster: MikeMk
MikeMk
MikeMk
Local time: 16:01
Sep 15, 2014

Guys, I'm pretty experienced with hiring translators, but I've got real problems with EN>JP translating of a children ebook.

This is one short PDF page-example http://obe4u.com/files/tale.pdf

Three translators/proofreaders say it's good. They're from one team who did the job... Two independent Japanese men say that they even cannot understand the text...

The problem
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Guys, I'm pretty experienced with hiring translators, but I've got real problems with EN>JP translating of a children ebook.

This is one short PDF page-example http://obe4u.com/files/tale.pdf

Three translators/proofreaders say it's good. They're from one team who did the job... Two independent Japanese men say that they even cannot understand the text...

The problem is that the translators worked with me for another project and all was really good(non-fiction books, and documentary), but this time I don't know what to think. More over, intro for this project is very well translated, but actual text (fairytales) isn't translated the same way.

Any idea?
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Quentina Chan
Quentina Chan
Malaysia
Local time: 22:01
Member (2015)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Hi Sep 15, 2014

Hi Mike,

I have taught myself in Japanese for quite some time, and I hope you won't mind me sharing some of my thoughts, hopefully it will help you in some way.

1) You mentioned that, the translators worked with you in another project and all was good. My question is, did that project being proofread by a Japanese proofreader as well?

If the answer is yes, you probably don't have to worry too much, and if possible, make a request for some correction (one or
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Hi Mike,

I have taught myself in Japanese for quite some time, and I hope you won't mind me sharing some of my thoughts, hopefully it will help you in some way.

1) You mentioned that, the translators worked with you in another project and all was good. My question is, did that project being proofread by a Japanese proofreader as well?

If the answer is yes, you probably don't have to worry too much, and if possible, make a request for some correction (one or two sentences) as a sample from the two independent Japanese men, so that you can compare and find out the problem.

If the answer is no, well, maybe you can have other Japanese proofreader to do the proofread on the project (not the ebook project, another project that was good) and see how it goes.

2) I have briefly read the text you provided, it seems ok for me. And, the only reason why the two Japanese men can't understand, I guess it's the problem of sentence pattern.

"ある小さな町に" - this sentence seems missing something for me, the sentence pattern looks more complete in the form of "(どこに)ある小さな町に". Or, just replaced it by "小さな町で".

"他の子どもたちとおなじように、フェイジーはマンガとキャンディーが大いすきでした。" - when compare this sentence to the original English sentence, the two sentences have a same sentence pattern. I tried to find some similar (Japanese) sentences, the result showed that, "他の子どもたちとおなじように" is mostly followed by another phrase instead of a comma, which is something like "フェイジーは、他の子どもたちとおなじようにマンガとキャンディーが大いすきでした。"

I have once read a sentence, it says, one should translate with a mind of the target language. It means, when you want to translate the text to Japanese, you have to put your mind in a "Japanese thinking mode", and think how would something being said if you are a Japanese.

3) I have never translated children books before, but I think the way to translate a children book should be different from other (e.g. novel, documentary or news).

All the best!

[Edited at 2014-09-15 15:59 GMT]
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MikeMk
MikeMk
Local time: 16:01
TOPIC STARTER
QC QC, thank you! Sep 15, 2014

I'm thinking about your option 3 too. It seems the key to solve the problem lays in the style of kid's books. As I mentioned, the non-fiction part of this job was translated pretty well.

Hope to get a tip from someone who's native in Japanese.


 
Quentina Chan
Quentina Chan
Malaysia
Local time: 22:01
Member (2015)
English to Chinese
+ ...
no problem ;) Sep 16, 2014

and yes, I am looking forward to see some responses from native Japanese too. Good luck!

 
MikeMk
MikeMk
Local time: 16:01
TOPIC STARTER
one more Sep 17, 2014

I hired a pro for making a third party opinion:
"I had an impression that this is a well-written translation. This translator grasps the target audience, changes the tone depending on who reads the text. The main text (fairy tale part) is written in very natural, clear, and easy Japanese, which is suitable for kids. Good work."

Hope it really so


 
Arianne Farah
Arianne Farah  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 10:01
Member (2008)
English to French
Might just be a case of cognitive bias Sep 17, 2014

If the pro says it's good, I would trust the pro - they know what to look for in a translation.

Bilingual laypeople tend to first read the source text and then look at the translation text; if they do so, they will almost invariably be disappointed since the human brain is trained to look for differences and they'll miss the forest, so to speak, for the trees. When a layperson asks me how he/she should evaluate a translation they've had done, my answer is usually to ask someone to r
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If the pro says it's good, I would trust the pro - they know what to look for in a translation.

Bilingual laypeople tend to first read the source text and then look at the translation text; if they do so, they will almost invariably be disappointed since the human brain is trained to look for differences and they'll miss the forest, so to speak, for the trees. When a layperson asks me how he/she should evaluate a translation they've had done, my answer is usually to ask someone to read the target text only and then point out any problems/weirdness in the language, and then to tell you, in their own words, what the story/text was about. If the language is good and doesn't put off the reader in any way, and all the information was conveyed, congratulations, you have a good translation.

For the record, as an editor, when I look at someone else's text, I always read the French first (usually sentence by sentence, and then at the end, the whole text at once), this way any 'unnaturalness' with the French will stick out, and only then do I go and check what the English said to make sure all the information/tone/style/whatever made it to the French. If I read the English first, I will invariably translate the text in my head and the French will not seem as good in my eyes, not because it's 'wrong', but because it's 'different' (this is where some, usually novice, editors will butcher a translator's text in the name of style, and you end up with a frankensteined monster that's worse than the text you started with).
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Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 22:01
Chinese to English
Hallelujah Sep 18, 2014

Arianne Farah wrote:

...read the target text only...and then to tell you, in their own words, what the story/text was about...I always read the French first...

Sorry, bit off topic, but this is so right and so well put. I've just been embroiled in a few discussions about words and correspondence with the source. Sometimes people seem to forget that we're trying to make a thing, and the thing we make has to be read.


 
Kyra
Kyra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:01
French to English
+ ...
finding native Japanese proofreaders Sep 18, 2014

there's a good resource for that, www.ProofreadingCircle.com, you can receive free proofreading services from native speakers.

 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Ask a child Sep 18, 2014

MikeMk wrote:

I hired a pro for making a third party opinion:
"I had an impression that this is a well-written translation. This translator grasps the target audience, changes the tone depending on who reads the text. The main text (fairy tale part) is written in very natural, clear, and easy Japanese, which is suitable for kids. Good work."

Hope it really so


Why not ask a Japanese child to read it, and see what they say?


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 15:01
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
This is the real test Sep 18, 2014

Tom in London wrote:

...

Why not ask a Japanese child to read it, and see what they say?


I found the whole of the English text - I was not impressed by the first page, and thought THAT was muddled and read like a translation. It felt to me like grown-ups talking over the heads of children - what age group were they aiming at? Presumably small children, but I would not read the English version to a child without reworking it quite a lot.

There are so many other stories in beautiful English. If the Japanese translator has made it really suitable for Japanese children, it may not in the strict sense be a good translation, but it will be 'fit for its purpose' - and that is really more important!


 
Michael Grant
Michael Grant
Japan
Local time: 23:01
Japanese to English
Pretty good... Oct 22, 2014

Mike,

The translated excerpt you gave us is pretty good. You can tell the translator is trying to capture the mindset/feeling of a younger child. You could probably find someone who could do it better, but the translation is not bad.

One thing I noticed: the translation of the last sentence on that page, "And nobody could help him." is a bit off because it uses "助けてあげること" instead of "助けてくれること".

The difference is that you u
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Mike,

The translated excerpt you gave us is pretty good. You can tell the translator is trying to capture the mindset/feeling of a younger child. You could probably find someone who could do it better, but the translation is not bad.

One thing I noticed: the translation of the last sentence on that page, "And nobody could help him." is a bit off because it uses "助けてあげること" instead of "助けてくれること".

The difference is that you use the て form of a verb + あげる for something from your (the speaker's/subject's, i.e. Phasie's) point of view (i.e. something you give to someone else), and you use て form of a verb + くれる for something you receive/don't receive from someone else.

In this case, Phasie is the one who is not receiving help, so the translator should have used "助けてくれること". The bottom line is: you never use あげる in reference to yourself (as speaker/subject) when you are receiving/not receiving the effect of an action, you use くれる.

Small things like that I outlined above detract from the quality of the translation, which is why I say it's not "bad", but you could probably find someone who could do it better.

MLG4035
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Sarah Lewis-Morgan
Sarah Lewis-Morgan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:01
Member (2014)
German to English
+ ...
The original is written oddly Oct 22, 2014

Christine Andersen wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

...

Why not ask a Japanese child to read it, and see what they say?


I found the whole of the English text - I was not impressed by the first page, and thought THAT was muddled and read like a translation. It felt to me like grown-ups talking over the heads of children - what age group were they aiming at? Presumably small children, but I would not read the English version to a child without reworking it quite a lot.

There are so many other stories in beautiful English. If the Japanese translator has made it really suitable for Japanese children, it may not in the strict sense be a good translation, but it will be 'fit for its purpose' - and that is really more important!



I agree with Christine. This was not written in good English, so translating it would be hard - I don't know any Japanese so I'm afraid I can't comment on the translation.


 


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Help evaluate EN>JP translation: is it disaster?







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