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Allow negative WWA, but visible only to staff and translators, for now
Thread poster: Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 08:58
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Replies Nov 25, 2015

Preston Decker wrote:
Allowing 'No' WWAs, even as a test, increases the chances that this will become a reality.


It will take many years before a system of non-public negative WWAs will be turned in a system of public negative WWAs, and in the mean time, staff will have been able to see what such a system would likely be like. Take a look at how long the current WWA system has remained the same, despite frequent comments by staff that negative WWAs may be allowed "some time in future".

Also, I don't think denying the request for allowing non-public negative WWAs will impact the speed at which ProZ.com decides to implement public negative WWAs.

Preston Decker wrote:
I have 10 positive entries. If I sent out more requests I could have 30 entries; less and I'd have zero...


I agree, unfortunately positive WWAs can create the wrong impression in many cases, because a client might weigh up a translator with few WWAs against one with many WWAs, not taking into account that the translator with many WWAs had actively sought out WWAs whereas the one with few WWAs actually had clients post WWAs by their own initiative.

'Yes' answers will always come largely in response to a WWA request made by the translator...


I'm not convinced that your assumption is correct.

At the same time I think the same criticism can be aimed at the Blue Board -- some agencies specifically ask translators to post Blue Board entries for them, and it can be difficult to refuse such a request if it is a regular client of yours, so I think most such BB ratings will be on the high side, even though the translator may not have given the agency any BB rating if left to his own discretion.

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Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I also entirely agree with Preston in his views that allowing negative WWA entries would increase the imbalance of power in the already imbalanced industry of agencies and freelancers.


Do you also think it would "increase the imbalance of power" if the entries themselves and the number of entries are not visible to the public?

Pradeep Kumar Maheshwarla wrote:
Some agencies may be tempted to use this feature in persuading you into accepting a low rate or an unrealistic deadline or in preventing you from posting a negative BB entry.


Do you think it likely that they will yield to that temptation if only you, they and staff can see the negative rating?

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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Now let's envision the "reverse blackmail": the client feels fully justified in their negative WWA:
Late delivery, bad quality, intolerant to feedback, unfaithful to a signed agreement, and quite revengeful.


The adage "never post a letter in anger" or "wait one day before posting an angry letter" applies here as well. Infantile getting-back at the translator by posting a private message to him (in a non-public negative WWA) will only decrease the client's standing in the eyes of the translator, surely.

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Jessica Noyes wrote:
Then there is the question of whether the low scores would stay up even after the poor translator withdrew.


No, if a translator cancels his membership, his entire profile is deleted. This includes WWAs. The Blue Board is a separate section that is independent of member profiles, which is why entries on the Blue Board remain even if the profile that it was associated with, is deleted.


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 08:58
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
It's best not to collect the information Nov 25, 2015

Samuel Murray wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I also entirely agree with Preston in his views that allowing negative WWA entries would increase the imbalance of power in the already imbalanced industry of agencies and freelancers.

Do you also think it would "increase the imbalance of power" if the entries themselves and the number of entries are not visible to the public?

If the information is not going to be public, why collect it? Honestly, if something is so dangerous that it has to be "carefully monitored" or hidden from the public, it is best not to collect it. We are already have too much information about ourselves out there.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 08:58
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Non-public information Nov 25, 2015

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
If the information is not going to be public, why collect it?


Your profile already contains a lot of information that is visible to you and to staff, but not to the public. In addition, whenever someone sends you a message via ProZ.com's message service, the message is visible to you, to the person sending it, and to staff. What I'm proposing is something along the same lines -- it will be a way for clients to give you feedback.

At this time, I don't ask clients for a WWA entry, because they can only do two things: give a positive rating, or ignore my request. If they ignore the request, then I don't know why. If the options "maybe" and "no" were available, then I'd be happier asking clients for feedback, because I know that they're not being coerced into saying nice things that they don't mean.


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 08:58
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Simple! Nov 25, 2015

Samuel Murray wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
If the information is not going to be public, why collect it?

What I'm proposing is something along the same lines -- it will be a way for clients to give you feedback.

For feedback, my customers send me emails. No need for them to post information that will remain there forever and is at risk of being published at a later moment if Proz.com or their customers wish. Or even worse: there could be a bug in Proz.com that discloses the information for some time, or someone could even steal it and publish it illegally.

Quite simply, it is best not to collect such information if the risks are so big.


 
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 08:58
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Cui bono? Nov 25, 2015

Who would benefit from negative WWA? Certainly not translators.
This strikes me as shooting ourselves in the foot.


 
Helga Lemiere
Helga Lemiere  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 08:58
German to French
Only an option ! Nov 25, 2015

It's up to each paying member to decide whether he/she allows negative WWA entries on his/her profile or not !
The stuff cannot force anyone here to agree to this kind of 'humiliating system'. You deliver bad work ? So the agency will never work with you again ! Relations between translators and their customers are initially based on mutual confidence, issues should be discussed between them and only between them ! Just have a look on the Blue Board : translator gives bad feedback, agency
... See more
It's up to each paying member to decide whether he/she allows negative WWA entries on his/her profile or not !
The stuff cannot force anyone here to agree to this kind of 'humiliating system'. You deliver bad work ? So the agency will never work with you again ! Relations between translators and their customers are initially based on mutual confidence, issues should be discussed between them and only between them ! Just have a look on the Blue Board : translator gives bad feedback, agency strikes back with : bad work, lost client, lost contract, etc ! These things should not be discussed on this website since we can never control who is right and who is wrong. If Proz ever decided to implement this kind of system, I would not renew my membership !

[Modifié le 2015-11-25 23:29 GMT]
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Matthias Brombach
Matthias Brombach  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 08:58
Member (2007)
Dutch to German
+ ...
A clear invitation to bullying Nov 26, 2015

I agree:
Helga Lemiere wrote:
Just have a look on the Blue Board : translator gives bad feedback, agency strikes back with : bad work, lost client, lost contract, etc !

My experience in the last years: The younger the outsourcers, the more they are prone to bully you when you complain about i.e. late payment or inadequate communication and the more they tend to bully you when you give them a negative feedback. Proz staff will be loaded with more work to sort out all complaints once the proposed system will be established.


 
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Allow negative WWA, but visible only to staff and translators, for now






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