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ProZ.com "Professional Guidelines" to be updated. Any requests / additions / edits to propose?
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:50
German to English
a few points Oct 26, 2016

(1) I like Tom's suggestion a lot. It sounds very nice. It may also be somewhat misleading, but it contains at least a grain of truth: "encourage" is a very flexible word.

(2) I think it should be made clear that there is no obligation whatsoever to answer requests for information or calls for offers that are clearly not relevant to a given translator. If outsourcers do not narrow their searches enough to filter out irrelevant translators (myself almost always included), then I doub
... See more
(1) I like Tom's suggestion a lot. It sounds very nice. It may also be somewhat misleading, but it contains at least a grain of truth: "encourage" is a very flexible word.

(2) I think it should be made clear that there is no obligation whatsoever to answer requests for information or calls for offers that are clearly not relevant to a given translator. If outsourcers do not narrow their searches enough to filter out irrelevant translators (myself almost always included), then I doubt they want a negative reply from me and I don't see why I should feel obligated to send them one.

(3) What if the concept of native speaker were replaced by a quantifiable statement? For example, having a "C2" certificate (and whatever they're called elsewhere) or completing an entire secondary school program or university degree in a given country? Granted (particularly if you prepare directly for the test), you can pass a C2 test without anything remotely resembling the language skills needed to translate into a language, but there aren't any tests beyond that level and at least it's a way to avoid the "am too, are not, am too, are not ..." problem implicit to "native speaker".
In cases where someone voices more or less convincing doubts about the information provided by someone else, it would make it very easy to resolve the conflict. Theoretically, "native speaker" could also be converted into a quantifiable statement - to the extent that people are able to provide documentation about where they went to school as a child (I doubt I could, though).
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José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:50
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
This covers the "native speaker" beautifully for translation purposes Oct 26, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

I consider the issue with native language claims to be covered by the first guideline: "represent their credentials, capabilities and experiences honestly".

Verification / enforcement is a separate question. (Not one for this thread, though.)


There is a pantry somewhere completely stacked with cans of worms. Every time someone mentions "native speaker" as a translator feature, a few of these cans pop open.

I recently discovered that I could claim to be a native speaker of... Polish!
I was born in Brazil, but my Polish parents only got naturalized when I was 5 years old. Hence I am legally a Polish citizen, just a matter of red tape to get the proper docs issued. Then I heard Polish spoken at home for the first 25 years of my life.
Can I speak it? No! The best I can do to is utter a few expressions - often grammatically wrong and poorly pronounced - to get my message across in Polish.
Can I understand it? Well, quite often I can get the gist of what a conversation in Polish is about, IF speakers are well educated in that language AND they have all their teeth in place (to pronounce those cz, rz, sz sounds properly).

Conversely, I have a hard time to convince English speakers of all kinds that I am NOT American without showing any personal documents.

Each individual will have his or her personal background leading to a unique mastery level of the different languages they speak, if more than one. So "native speaker" cannot ever be an objective criterion.

For translation purposes, I live in Brazil. I know a few Brazilian-born translators living in the USA for ages who can do a better job translating into English than some American-born ones who have been living in Brazil for about the same time. So there are individual life factors that may erode the value of being a native speaker.

Bottom line is that if the "native speaker" absolute demand held any water, nobody would dare to board an aircraft piloted by another human being; they'd demand a bird - the truly native flyer - at the helm.

So IMHO representing one's credentials honestly covers it well indeed. For instance, I am not familiar with medical lingo in ANY language, so I shun such translation requests, regardless of my native language.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
The native speaker debate Oct 26, 2016

Michael Wetzel wrote:
(3) What if the concept of native speaker were replaced by a quantifiable statement? For example, having a "C2" certificate...


The problem is that some people (translators, clients, and even the public) believe that native speakers will have something "extra" that even non-native C2 certified speakers won't necessarily have.

The important thing w.r.t. the guidelines is that translators should use a definition of "native language" that their peers and clients are likely to agree with, and should honestly evaluate themselves against that definition.

I think it goes without saying that if you say to a client that you have X qualification, then you should use the word X in the meaning that the client will most likely understand it. If you describe yourself in a way that may be true in your own country or your own group of peers, but you know that the client is likely to understand something else, then you are not being truthful even though you're telling the truth.


 
Maria S. Loose, LL.M.
Maria S. Loose, LL.M.  Identity Verified
Belgium
Local time: 11:50
German to English
+ ...
language of habitual use, main language Oct 26, 2016

The ITI uses the concept of "language of habitual use" in addition to "native language". The EU uses "main language" for its selection procedures for translators. It then goes on to define "main language" as C2 of the European Framework of Reference for Languages. "Native language" is too vague, in my opinion. The language I heard my parents speak when I was a child is not necessarily my best target language. I would therefore propose to use these other two terms in addition to native language. ... See more
The ITI uses the concept of "language of habitual use" in addition to "native language". The EU uses "main language" for its selection procedures for translators. It then goes on to define "main language" as C2 of the European Framework of Reference for Languages. "Native language" is too vague, in my opinion. The language I heard my parents speak when I was a child is not necessarily my best target language. I would therefore propose to use these other two terms in addition to native language. As for "main language" this would of course mean that there would be only one such language. But there could be two or more native languages or languages of habitual use.Collapse


 
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 06:50
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Revised guidelines - your feedback, please Oct 28, 2016

ProZ.com's professional guidelines are being revised based on feedback received in this thread and via other channels. (Thanks to those who helped!) We invite your feedback on the following. Let's take what has already been a good, solid guideline for the site and industry, endorsed by tens of thousands, and make it even stronger.

---------------------------------------------------

ProZ.com professional gui
... See more
ProZ.com's professional guidelines are being revised based on feedback received in this thread and via other channels. (Thanks to those who helped!) We invite your feedback on the following. Let's take what has already been a good, solid guideline for the site and industry, endorsed by tens of thousands, and make it even stronger.

---------------------------------------------------

ProZ.com professional guidelines for translators, interpreters and translation companies

Global trade and the spread of ideas and knowledge would not be possible without the skilled work of professional translators, interpreters and translation companies. The following guidelines, created by members of the ProZ.com community to encourage a focus on quality and professionalism among buyers and suppliers of language services, may optionally be endorsed by professionals and companies using the site.

Endorsement and adherence to these guidelines is a requirement for participation in the ProZ.com Certified PRO Network (CPN).

Professional translators, interpreters and translation companies:

General guidelines

· are courteous in their interactions with clients, potential clients, suppliers and colleagues
· maintain adequate and secure computing and working environments
· represent their capabilities, credentials and levels of experience honestly and accurately
· accept only work that they have the knowledge, resources and time to perform in line with agreed-upon terms

Project guidelines

· reach agreement with counter-parties, before projects start, on terms such as:
    - work to be delivered / performed
    - quality standard / requirements
    - data security and confidentiality requirements
    - method(s) of delivery
    - deadline(s)
    - payment amount(s), currency, method and timing
    - responsibility for any peripheral fee(s) related to payment, work delivery, etc.
    - permissibility of subcontracting

· comply with agreed-upon terms, and endeavor to produce work that is free of defects, even when unforeseen problems are encountered
· set their rates at levels sufficient to enable them to perform in line with project requirements on an ongoing basis

Outsourcing guidelines

· screen subcontractors (if any) with the diligence required to help ensure that agreed-upon terms can be met
· manage projects in such a way that subcontractors are given sufficient time to meet project requirements on an ongoing basis
· exercise reasonable diligence to ensure the quality of source documents passed to subcontractors
· provide reference materials, when possible, to support subcontractors in producing quality work
· pay subcontractors at levels that make it possible to complete work in line with project requirements on an ongoing basis
· accept responsibility for the quality of work they deliver to clients, whether or not that work has been subcontracted

Additional guidelines

· handle documents and content that they produce in a manner consistent with agreed-upon terms
· disclose, in a timely manner, any biases or conflicts of interest that may have relevance to a given project
· do not bypass intermediaries to contact end clients or subcontractors without permission
· attempt to resolve any disputes directly among parties involved
· do not unjustly criticize other professionals and companies or their work
· comply with the legal and financial obligations of their locale
· strive to continually improve their skills and capabilities
· capitalize on opportunities to further the industry as a whole

Professional interpreters additionally:

· ask for clarification, and give it, when appropriate, making clear when they are speaking and not interpreting
· do not interject their own feelings, opinions or advice (unless the client has explicitly authorized this)
· do not accept assignments in which payment is contingent on the outcome of a case or proceedings
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Paulo Caldeira
Paulo Caldeira  Identity Verified
Portugal
English to Portuguese
+ ...
2 contributions for transparency Oct 28, 2016

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

I consider the issue with native language claims to be covered by the first guideline: "represent their credentials, capabilities and experiences honestly".

Verification / enforcement is a separate question. (Not one for this thread, though.)


There is a pantry somewhere completely stacked with cans of worms. Every time someone mentions "native speaker" as a translator feature, a few of these cans pop open.

I recently discovered that I could claim to be a native speaker of... Polish!
I was born in Brazil, but my Polish parents only got naturalized when I was 5 years old. Hence I am legally a Polish citizen, just a matter of red tape to get the proper docs issued. Then I heard Polish spoken at home for the first 25 years of my life.
Can I speak it? No! The best I can do to is utter a few expressions - often grammatically wrong and poorly pronounced - to get my message across in Polish.
Can I understand it? Well, quite often I can get the gist of what a conversation in Polish is about, IF speakers are well educated in that language AND they have all their teeth in place (to pronounce those cz, rz, sz sounds properly).

Conversely, I have a hard time to convince English speakers of all kinds that I am NOT American without showing any personal documents.

Each individual will have his or her personal background leading to a unique mastery level of the different languages they speak, if more than one. So "native speaker" cannot ever be an objective criterion.

For translation purposes, I live in Brazil. I know a few Brazilian-born translators living in the USA for ages who can do a better job translating into English than some American-born ones who have been living in Brazil for about the same time. So there are individual life factors that may erode the value of being a native speaker.

Bottom line is that if the "native speaker" absolute demand held any water, nobody would dare to board an aircraft piloted by another human being; they'd demand a bird - the truly native flyer - at the helm.

So IMHO representing one's credentials honestly covers it well indeed. For instance, I am not familiar with medical lingo in ANY language, so I shun such translation requests, regardless of my native language.



1º Change the way you check the "Native" concept. Being native is "born in, and resident".

I see so much this term "NATIVE" here and elsewhere being used with a huge unfair and low professionalism. I speaking in particular about the PORTUGUESE.

Even the political authorities don't take procedures to distinguish who is a PORTUGUESE NATIVE (born and living in Portugal), my opinion is: a person can be a NATIVE from other country where PORTUGUESE is an "imaginative" official language, but that person isn't a Portuguese Native.

(please note that this is not racism, it is a matter of be professional)

If a person was born in Portugal but had leave the country at 5 years old, he or she, will not be able to know everything about Portugal.

Microsoft and Google have achieve this diferences and they are know taking their procedures to distinghuish PT from all other variants.

Some say: my parents were German. Well: mine were Celtic and I am not an Eire Native. I love Ireland but I am fair enough to consider my limits.

So, to have a good sense here, the way how people are classified by languages should be changed.

Anyone can have skills to know several languages but that's not a NATIVE level and the EU authorities say that.

2º Change the way you certify skills beyond Linguistics Degrees. A languages degree is not enough to work on other fields.

Can a person with only an academic degree in languages work on other fields like Culture, Management and Tourism without any academic degree on that fields? My opinion is: NO!

I have seen so much people saying they have experience in Journalism but when I see their CV's what I see is 1 or 2 years working for the school journal. Should I accept that person has experient when I have my oficial Press card for 28 years of hard work? NO!

I see many saying they are educators, but do they have certification from the National authorities or the European Authorities? Have you seen and check them?

Also here something must be done urgently.


julie-davis-quote-its-better-if-you-dont-know-their-native-language


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 06:50
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TOPIC STARTER
This forum topic is about the professional guidelines Oct 28, 2016

This topic is intended for the updating of the professional guidelines. Putting something into the guidelines about native language was considered, but the view was taken that native language claims are already covered by the general call for accuracy in representation. For this reason I would ask posters to refrain from discussing native language further in this thread. (That is a topic for another thread -- and there are many on it already!)

Thank you.


 
writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
What is the url for the native language thread? Oct 28, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

For this reason I would ask posters to refrain from discussing native language further in this thread. (That is a topic for another thread -- and there are many on it already!)

Thank you.


Hi Henry. I can't find the thread you are referring to. Please show the URL.
Thanks!


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:50
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Two more nails for the "native speaker as a MUST" coffin Oct 29, 2016

Paulo Caldeira wrote:

1º Change the way you check the "Native" concept. Being native is "born in, and resident".

I see so much this term "NATIVE" here and elsewhere being used with a huge unfair and low professionalism. I speaking in particular about the PORTUGUESE.

Even the political authorities don't take procedures to distinguish who is a PORTUGUESE NATIVE (born and living in Portugal), my opinion is: a person can be a NATIVE from other country where PORTUGUESE is an "imaginative" official language, but that person isn't a Portuguese Native.


According to both Constitutions, Portuguese is the national language in (at least) Portugal and in Brazil.

I was born in Sao Paulo, had all my schooling in Brazil, and have been living here for more than 90% of my life. Hence the most nitpicking purist would unwaveringly state that I am a legit "native speaker" of Portuguese.

I never studied Spanish, didn't even accidentally walk into a Spanish language class. However I coordinated five LatAm events in Brazil with attendants from a flock of ES-speaking countries who couldn't understand PT on account of not having an "ear" for many of our sounds (e.g. NH, LH, the tilde, our multiple-sound X, our Z, etc). Bottom line is that I learned by osmosis to speak (but not read or write) rather fluently a personal mix of several ES variants.

Bottom line is that in spite of being a truly native Portuguese speaker, I'd be able to communicate much better in Spain than in Portugal!

A French native friend told me he communicates much better in English than in French with Canadians. Hence this is not privy to PT. Other languages may have it.

Therefore the "native" attribute as a major screening criterion for translators is not very professional in itself, if language variants are taken into account.

Paulo Caldeira wrote:

2º Change the way you certify skills beyond Linguistics Degrees. A languages degree is not enough to work on other fields.


I am an EN-PT translator. My wife (also Brazilian) is an ESL teacher.

The "law" we uphold at home is simple: "I don't teach; she doesn't translate."

When I celebrated my 40th anniversary in the translation industry, I came to the conclusion that:
A bilingual individual is someone capable of properly expressing their own ideas in two different languages, whereas a translator is someone able to faithfully and correctly express someone else's ideas in a language different from the one in which they were originally stated.

Therefore diplomas and degrees in a language - albeit covering many prerequisites - don't necessarily make a professional translator.


I hope this consolidates as final the idea of honestly stating one's capabilities, which encompasses - maybe among a few other things - languages, variants, formats, and subject areas.

If it does, let's move on!


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:50
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
My suggested changes Oct 29, 2016

In addition to many great ideas from colleagues, I'd add a couple...

Henry Dotterer wrote:
    - payment amount(s), currency and timing


I'd add (payment) method here.

After the parties have, e.g. agreed on a bank transfer, if the translator complains about default, it's unprofessional conduct to reply "your check is in the mail".

Henry Dotterer wrote:
· attempt to resolve any disputes directly among parties involved
· do not unjustly criticize other professionals and companies or their work


I think it behooves professionalism to elaborate a bit more on this.

I tried a few ways to say it, however I wasn't too happy with the results.
Maybe someone here has already found the solution that hasn't occurred to me yet.

What I'd like to mean is that:
- The professional client should not unilaterally determine penalties based on their own (or worse... a third party's) subjective opinion on the work delivered; objective facts should be required for that.
- The services provider should have the first opportunity to fix any objectively evidenced flaws found in the work delivered within reasonable time, at no penalty nor any extra charge.

Illustrating with an example...

This is NOT professional:
(from the client:) "We had the translation you delivered checked by the runner-up of the bidding process. S/he said it is awful, so we are not paying you. Though it will cost us more, we are hiring him/her to redo it to adequate standards."

This IS professional:
(from the client:) "We checked the translation you delivered and, in the first five pages, we noticed that you failed to adopt the terminology we provided and required for items like (list of examples) among others, as well as some verbal inconsistencies. Can you get these corrected within the next 48 hours, or would you prefer that we hire someone else to do it at your expense (a deduction from your payment)?"


Finally, a few years ago I wrote this page intended to offer some guidance to end clients on the decision between hiring a freelance translator or a translation agency. I never had any negative feedback on it from either group, so I'm led to believe that the points made there are correct. MAYBE some of the criteria there would spark ideas for additional professional guidelines. I wouldn't know.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Create a new thread Oct 30, 2016

writeaway wrote:
Henry Dotterer wrote:
For this reason I would ask posters to refrain from discussing native language further in this thread. (That is a topic for another thread -- and there are many on it already!)

I can't find the thread you are referring to. Please show the URL.


I understood Henry's comment to mean that you can start a separate thread on that topic, if you want to discuss that topic. But if you're interested in finding out if other ProZians have the same opinion about the issue as you do, see here: http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/227485.html (183 pages long)



[Edited at 2016-10-30 19:43 GMT]


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:50
Member
English to Italian
Dead thread Oct 30, 2016

Samuel Murray wrote:

writeaway wrote:
Henry Dotterer wrote:
For this reason I would ask posters to refrain from discussing native language further in this thread. (That is a topic for another thread -- and there are many on it already!)

I can't find the thread you are referring to. Please show the URL.


http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/227485.html (183 pages long, and counting)


Well, actually the "counting" seems to have stopped 4 years ago, when the thread was killed by Henry...

Besides, after 183 pages, what tangible measures did that thread lead to?


 
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Additional revisions made based on feedback Nov 2, 2016

I have further updated the guidelines based on additional feedback received in the CPN forum. See: http://www.proz.com/post/2600464#2600464

 
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