| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Off topic: Feminist translation blog Thread poster: Richard Huddleson
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| Go raibh maith agaibh! Thank you all! | Sep 1, 2014 |
Thank you to everyone who has replied, given feedback, translations, different terms, criticism and insights. I will reflect on all of these, so again, thank you very much! Go raibh míle maith agaibh
I'm taking great care not to generalise, but it's really fascinating to see how people of different genders - and even nationalities - approach the topic. Certainly Nordic countries lead the way, but also there have been... See more Thank you to everyone who has replied, given feedback, translations, different terms, criticism and insights. I will reflect on all of these, so again, thank you very much! Go raibh míle maith agaibh
I'm taking great care not to generalise, but it's really fascinating to see how people of different genders - and even nationalities - approach the topic. Certainly Nordic countries lead the way, but also there have been some regional differences, particularly on the Iberian peninsula (Catalunya and Euskadi versus Madrid, León, Castile).
With regards to the comments on how this isn't a professional approach to translation, I guess I have the privilege of working closely with feminist organisations, so maybe that's my "get of (translation) jail card". Obviously, this might not work in other people's areas of focus and I fully understand that - but, it is still interesting to hear your insights and ideas!
Anyhow, have a lovely week everybody ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alex Lago 
Spain
Local time: 16:24
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Maybe wasn't very clear, sorry | Sep 3, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote: That is to say that when Alex says: we do have to translate all the meaning he's asking the impossible. I don't think we can ever translate *all* the meaning. In fact, translation is always an act of reading, interpretation and selection. It seems to me that the choice is to let your interpretation and selection be guided by unconscious forces, or to try to steer the interpretation in a direction you want to go.
The entire sentence was "We as translators are charged with rendering the source text into the target language as faithfully as possible, that gives us liberty in choosing our words because a good translation is not a word by word translation of the source text but we do have to translate all the meaning, not just what we find acceptable or what we agree with."
So when I mentioned "all" the meaning I wasn't actually referring to translating all the meaning itself but more to the fact that you can't pick and choose what to translate based on your personal opinion.
As to the actual translation I probably would have gone with "mentally handicapped or mentally ill women" as neither idiotic or insane are commonly used in English, but as I originally said you have to translate the fact that this only applies to some women.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
"As translators, we are charged with rendering the source text into the target language as faithfully as possible. This gives us liberty in choosing our words, since a good translation is not a word-for-word translation of the source text; but we must translate all of the meaning, and not just those parts of it that we find acceptable or with which we agree."
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 22:24
Chinese to English
| If not that, then what? | Sep 3, 2014 |
Alex Lago wrote:
So when I mentioned "all" the meaning I wasn't actually referring to translating all the meaning itself but more to the fact that you can't pick and choose what to translate based on your personal opinion.
But I think you're dodging the question here. We can't translate all the meaning - you seem to be agreeing with me about that. So we have to pick and choose what to translate.
You're making this claim that "you can't...translate based on your personal opinion". Well, why not? And if not on my personal opinion, then on whose opinion? Because I have to pick and choose.
If you think there are some sort of objective criteria for making these decisions... well, I think you're mistaken. But I'd be interested to hear what you think they are.
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Alex Lago
Spain
Local time: 16:24
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Yes translations are personal choices | Sep 3, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
But I think you're dodging the question here. We can't translate all the meaning - you seem to be agreeing with me about that. So we have to pick and choose what to translate.
You're making this claim that "you can't...translate based on your personal opinion". Well, why not? And if not on my personal opinion, then on whose opinion? Because I have to pick and choose.
If you think there are some sort of objective criteria for making these decisions... well, I think you're mistaken. But I'd be interested to hear what you think they are.
I'm sorry, I think you completely missed my point, I'll try to express myself better this time.
I agree with you, we can't always translate all the meaning, there could be cultural or grammatical or semantic or any other number of reasons which at times make it impossible or very difficult for us to translate the entire meaning.
I agree with you, translating is always one’s personal opinion, that's obvious, I myself said what my personal choice would have been in my example "mentally handicapped or mentally ill women" as opposed to "idiotic or insane women" which was the translation in the text I was referring to. All translations are personal choices, it couldn't be any other way, each translator is an individual and no two individuals think exactly alike, two translators translating the same text will make different choices. I wasn't talking about the personal choices one makes when translating a text, because I believe (I don't know if you agree) that those personal choices should only be related to choice of words, grammar, semantics, cultural nuances, etc., they should only be choices made to try and render the original meaning as closely as possible in the target language.
What I was talking about and meant to convey in my original example (and I have to admit Tom's rephrasing probably conveys it better than I did) is that a translator (in my opinion) cannot decide they don't want to translate part of a text (which in my example is a very important part because it clearly delimits the people who are covered by the law) because they find it offensive or disagree with what it says, if they do then I believe they are making choices that are not theirs to make.
If a translator finds a text offensive or disagreeable or whatever, they should inform their client and refuse to do the translation, but what I don't think they should do is "translate" the text and remove those parts they disagree with or find offensive, because in my opinion that would not be a translation of the original text.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
A translator who - for any reason - chose not to translate parts of the source text, or to intentionally alter its meaning, would very quickly find themselves out of work.
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 17:24
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
| Quite an interesting topic | Sep 3, 2014 |
And based on the analogy, I would like to offer a new one, e.g. "Nudism in Technical Translation"
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 22:24
Chinese to English
| A real example | Sep 4, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
A translator who - for any reason - chose not to translate parts of the source text, or to intentionally alter its meaning, would very quickly find themselves out of work.
Like I say, this is not true and can't be true. It is literally impossible to get all the meaning out of a source text; it is literally impossible to prevent other meanings from creeping into a target text. A good translator always knows when that is happening, and controls it. It is intentional.
Just yesterday I was translating for a direct client whose company name is an allusion to a famous Classical Chinese poem. The job was a very straightforward announcement of a move of premises, but part of this company's corporate image is elegance, and so even this simple message contained a play on words from that poem. I saw it, I checked the poem, I worked out what it meant, and I dumped it. The poem is not known to English language readers; there was simply no way to convey that allusion without inappropriate wordiness (or footnotes!). I intentionally changed the meaning. And I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get fired for that particular choice.
Now, obviously that's a long way from legal translation. And if you're asked to translate a law, leaving out a legally salient detail would not be on (incidentally, I don't think R Hudd was ever suggesting that).
But I think blanket assertions like "translators must never intentionally change meaning" or "translators can't pick and choose" are just unhelpful. Of course we pick and choose: sometimes based on the conventions of the genre we are writing in, sometimes based on different standards of political correctness, sometimes based on differences in the expected background knowledge of readers.
Now it is not obvious at all to me that picking and choosing based on a commitment to feminism/anti-racism/free markets/whatever would be worse than the picking and choosing we are doing already.
Actually, I think the blog writer is more on your side of this argument, because she argues for ditching fidelity. Whereas I don't think you have to. I think it's perfectly plausible that one can be faithful to a source text while also applying certain values.
Another example: In Chinese it is easier to write in an ungendered way than it is in English (because pronouns can be dropped). So the whole he/she/it issue doesn't arise in Chinese, but sometimes to make the English work I really need pronouns. It seems to me that I could commit to always using "she" in English. That would not be unfaithful. But some believe that that kind of pronoun change is a positive feminist change.
So I think you can have both politics and fidelity.
MariusV wrote:
I would like to offer a new one, e.g. "Nudism in Technical Translation"
Now you're just describing my working practices!
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| Partly a question of register | Sep 4, 2014 |
I have difficulty in translating swearing because of my upbringing, but I do know - and occasionally use - expressions that are not entirely politically correct, and here I see it as a question of register.
If the source expression is not politically correct, then the translation should if possible use an equivalent non-PC expression.
Whether the translator approves or not should be reserved for discussion elsewhere or notes in the margin if necessary.
I was once ... See more I have difficulty in translating swearing because of my upbringing, but I do know - and occasionally use - expressions that are not entirely politically correct, and here I see it as a question of register.
If the source expression is not politically correct, then the translation should if possible use an equivalent non-PC expression.
Whether the translator approves or not should be reserved for discussion elsewhere or notes in the margin if necessary.
I was once sent a series of texts that I would not dream of translating for the original target group - it would make me a party to a crime.
However, on the assurance that the translation was to be used as evidence in court, I did my utmost to translate every detail accurately.
In that kind of situation, no other option is ethical IMHO, apart from refusing to translate at all.
There will be examples when it is necessary to adapt from one culture to another, but I think it is necessary to keep translation firmly separate from discussion and one's own opinions.
_____________________________________
As I see it, the discussion is extremely important too.
Don't be put off by the fact that there are so many others who are oppressed or worse off than you. That is NOT a good excuse for doing nothing.
If those who only suffer slightly from discrimination can shake it off, they can help others.
Giving some women the vote will allow them to act and help their sisters who still do not have it.
You don't always have to start with the biggest, most insoluble issues first.
Beginning in a small way, where you can, may not hit the headlines, but it may lay the foundations for bigger things. Solving a problem for only five people is still better than doing nothing, especially if it is something like educating five young girls and enabling them to earn a living independently...
But that is not directly connected with translation.
_____________________________________
It is true that language can be used to emphasise or conceal gender.
Danish has handy, gender-neutral pronouns that can only be rendered in English as (s)he or he/she, his/her and the like. Sometimes 'they' can be used, if the statement is equally valid in the plural like many generalisations.
Technically these pronpouns also mean 'it' and 'its', but in Danish they are used of people - a sibling, a passenger, customer, the owner of something - in any situation where gender is irrelevant or unknown.
In other languages inflections and conjugations emphasise gender and even social position, and this IS an issue for translators.
As Phil Hand points out, they may be forced to make a choice in a translation that is not necessary in the source.
Writers who always referred to babies as 'she' used to irritate me, because I never had a daughter, although I can see their point.
There are no easy answers!
[Edited at 2014-09-04 12:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Every translation is serious | Sep 4, 2014 |
In my humble opinion there is no such thing as "serious" and "non-serious" translation. The translator is the soldier, he is supposed to translate what the outsourcer wants him to translate. I still remember when I once noticed a job offer, around 25K words from subtitles of porn films, to several languages. It was labeled as "Movie and entertainment", something like that.
Hence, there is no such thing as "serious" or "non-serious translations", all of them are important, and if so... See more In my humble opinion there is no such thing as "serious" and "non-serious" translation. The translator is the soldier, he is supposed to translate what the outsourcer wants him to translate. I still remember when I once noticed a job offer, around 25K words from subtitles of porn films, to several languages. It was labeled as "Movie and entertainment", something like that.
Hence, there is no such thing as "serious" or "non-serious translations", all of them are important, and if someone trusts us to translate something, that means that someone has a goal and a group of persons perceive that message as important. We make it available to that audience.
It's like being a lawyer. Some people start demands that may sound completely stupid for us, but if he started that demand, it means that it's something important to him, something that is part of his system of values.
People have different values, different realities. I don't think that it's our duty to question if they are righteous or not. I still remember when I was working in a certain event, the security checked some rooms, after that another group came and did the same thing and an engineer got mad about that and started to complain to me by phone(after I call him asking for aditional info). Well, I just told him that my duty was only interpret, not to discuss their procedures.
But that's just a personal opinion. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Your job as a translator is to translate exactly the text you are given. Stylistic or idiomatic necessities should not be taken as an opportunity to alter the meaning, or add to it, in any way.
If you don't like the text or feel you would not be able to translate it, don't translate it.
[Edited at 2014-09-04 14:27 GMT]
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 16:24
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| Voluntary vs. involuntary | Sep 4, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Now it is not obvious at all to me that picking and choosing based on a commitment to feminism/anti-racism/free markets/whatever would be worse than the picking and choosing we are doing already.
Phil, all the points you describe here refer to a dilemma that all of us face on a daily basis.
Of course it's not always viable (for the sake of style, brevity, awkwardness, etc...) to leave the original "as is".
We may have to plump for a different image, play on words or sometimes (regretfully) entirely omit a nuance which a reader of the original would have picked up on.
But these are involuntary choices we have to make.
It's quite a different matter to voluntarily make changes to the original to suit our personal beliefs/agenda.
"Nudism in Technical Engineering"
Quite.
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 16:24
Italian to English
In memoriam | The missionary position | Sep 5, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Actually, I think the blog writer is more on your side of this argument, because she argues for ditching fidelity. Whereas I don't think you have to. I think it's perfectly plausible that one can be faithful to a source text while also applying certain values.
People have been tendentiously tweaking translations since the dawn of time, of course, but approaching translation with ideological as well as professional baggage puts you in the position of a missionary doctor who may feel obliged to withhold treatment or even mutilate patients for belief-related reasons. Translation is rarely as dramatic as this. Nevertheless, if you "mutilate" your translations, you run the risk of losing jobs, customers and professional standing.
On the other hand, the most effective way of enhancing the brand image of your chosen ideology is to do your job - whatever it is - honestly and to the best of your ability.
[Edited at 2014-09-05 06:59 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I don't know Russian but I very much enjoy reading Chekhov in the translations by Constance Garnett, who was recommended to me, by a (male) writer of short stories, as the best translator of Chekhov.
Chekhov often writes about women. Whatever Ms. Garnett may have thought about that, I have complete faith that she never allowed any of her personal opinions to intrude on the translation.
[Edited at 2014-09-05 10:20 GMT]
| | | | | Were you being ironic? | Sep 5, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
I don't know Russian but I very much enjoy reading Chekhov in the translations by Constance Garnett, who was recommended to me, by a (male) writer of short stories, as the best translator of Chekhov.
Chekhov often writes about women. Whatever Ms. Garnett may have thought about that, I have complete faith that she never allowed any of her personal opinions to intrude on the translation.
In the Russian-speaking world, Ms. Garnett is recognized as someone who introduced Russian literature to the Western world and popularized it immensely. At the same time she made very basic mistakes and simply skipped over a lot of things she did not understand or thought few readers would understand. Iosif Brodsky said (my back-translation), "The reason English-speaking readers can hardly tell the difference between Tolstoy and Dostoevsky is they're not reading either; they're reading Constance Garnett."
Source:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гарнетт,_Констанс#.D0.9F.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B5.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.B4.D1.8B
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