| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | dealing with poor source texts Thread poster: Maria Popiel
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| Secure yourself... | Mar 31, 2015 |
...against any future claims and make at least notes at poor source text sections which can be misinterpreted, even when you understand their meaning. Remember that you may be the weakest point in the supply chain when damages occur and you then might be sued.
After having translated so many "English" manuals written by none native speakers from Far East I am thinking to become finally a fortuneteller and exchanging my CAT tools with a crystal bowl...
| | | | | That indeed is the real horror | Mar 31, 2015 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
Worst of all is that there are agencies that send such a text with a (horrible) TM, so a grid (on which I loose at lot of time correcting it + money).
That indeed is considered by me as the ultimate crucifixion for a translator - or proofreader, for that matter. - If he is obliged to deal with the often unimaginable rubbish produced of a text by some "colleague". That's so much worse than softening the edges of an imperfect source.
All those just complaints that the starter of this thread mentioned in terms of flawed source texts, all those complaints and worse can be made for all too many works of "translators" - or "text re-inventors".
Several years ago I read in a similar discussion from an English translator whose name I've forgotten, that about 60% of the "translators" in the industry should not be there. - By that time I thought that the number would be rather much too high. - But am not so certain now that it is.
| | | | Umberto Steindler (X) 
Local time: 15:35
German to Italian
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| This is a general problem of education in Italy | Mar 31, 2015 |
Fiona Peterson wrote: I often get badly-written source texts in Italian - it's the order of the day as far as I'm concerned. Tom in London wrote:
The worst offenders are academics who think they appear "cultured" by writing in an intentionally impenetrable Italian which, as often as not, conceals a paucity of ideas that I, as the translator, uncover very quickly. I think part of the problem is the education system which teaches children (if indeed it teaches them anything at all), that the more elaborate, the better. To come back to your question, it really depends on the use that will be made of the text, and I will respect its target register. So if it's a technical manual (something I rarely do), the text needs to be understandable to the reader. If it's humanities - audio guides, prose, whatever - I will try to improve on it, obviously respecting what the author wanted to say.
[Edited at 2015-03-31 10:32 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-03-31 10:33 GMT]
I am Italian, therefore I am allowed to be critical with my country. I simply quote a respected weekly newspaper (L’Espresso).
The situation in Italy is simply the consequence of corruption. Please read the following articles of “Espresso” and draw the conclusions.
http://espresso.repubblica.it/attualita/2015/03/20/news/la-sapienza-il-direttore-e-senza-laurea-imputato-e-pensionato-prende-200-mila-euro-1.205156
http://espresso.repubblica.it/attualita/2014/12/03/news/la-sapienza-lo-strano-caso-del-dottorato-vinto-dal-figlio-del-rettore-con-il-bianchetto-1.190643
When the President of the “Università La Sapienza” in Rome is not a graduate and the son of the “rettore” (dean) obtains an engineering degree in the way described in the article, the only conclusion is, that there is no future. I admit that the facts described are being investigated by the judges in Rome, but the reality is, that these facts happened.
However, in order to be objective I have to add that living in Germany and in France I learned, that even in these counties, that allegedly are almost free from corruption, the level of education is not satisfactory.
[Edited at 2015-03-31 10:34 GMT]
| | | | Andrea Polik
United States
Local time: 09:35
Member (2014)
English to Hungarian
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| I ask what the client wants | Mar 31, 2015 |
Before taking the job, I tell the client that the source text is not well written, and I try my best to specify what exactly I mean when I say "not well written".
Most of the time it goes without saying that grammar etc. and all the basic things must be corrected in the translation. I tend to ask for a higher price if this is a lot of work.
There are cases when the source text is important and significant as it is. Grandpa's WWII memoirs might not be "well written" at all but it dep... See more Before taking the job, I tell the client that the source text is not well written, and I try my best to specify what exactly I mean when I say "not well written".
Most of the time it goes without saying that grammar etc. and all the basic things must be corrected in the translation. I tend to ask for a higher price if this is a lot of work.
There are cases when the source text is important and significant as it is. Grandpa's WWII memoirs might not be "well written" at all but it depends on the client's intention what I should do with the text. If the family wants to read GRANDPA, I will translate the badly written text for them as faithfully as possible, mistakes and all. But if they express the wish to have a beautiful story for their enjoyment, or they talk about intentions to eventually contact a publisher, then I will work on the text and do the nicest translation possible, correcting the metaphors, linking sentences, changing this and that (without changing the intented meaning of course).
The only case when I am not really willing to make any compromises is when I am to deal with a teaching / information material. If a proposed textbook chapter or healthcare informational leaflet is indeed badly written, I tell the client that it is badly written, and that I find it unacceptable to allow it go in print as "my translation" unless it gets corrected and worked on until it is up to standards. Either I do the work and get paid for it properly, or please go and find someone else who can cope better than I can. ▲ Collapse
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| Offering corrections as "added value" | Mar 31, 2015 |
When a source text is well written but has few mistakes, I often keep a running email open for when I send in the translation, and place the source error and suggested change in a two-column table. Clients receive this as an "added value" service and, in appreciation for my going the extra mile, tend to use my services more often. When a well-written source text has several mistakes, I sometimes keep the original open on my desktop and insert the corrections directly with "track changes" activat... See more When a source text is well written but has few mistakes, I often keep a running email open for when I send in the translation, and place the source error and suggested change in a two-column table. Clients receive this as an "added value" service and, in appreciation for my going the extra mile, tend to use my services more often. When a well-written source text has several mistakes, I sometimes keep the original open on my desktop and insert the corrections directly with "track changes" activated, but still as an "added value" service.
However, when the original has many problems and is just poorly written, I often offer the client to correct it for a fee. Sometimes they do not plan to use the text in the source language, but only the translation, in which case they decline. In these cases, I gently suggest that they have the original reviewed prior to translation, in order to improve the final product. Doing this by email increases the chance of hurt feelings, so it is important to discuss this kind of thing in person or over the phone. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You get what you pay for | Mar 31, 2015 |
My first client/proofreader used to say "Don't loose your time, 'crap in, crap out', we don't get paid to recreate rubbish-like source texts".
I aggree with him, all I do is telling the client about the low quality source text, but I usually follow suit the source text.
| | | | Joan Teller
United States
Local time: 06:35
Russian to English
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I've sometimes found that a passage that isn't clear to me in a source text is clear to another reader. Or a passage that has one meaning to me has a different meaning to someone else. Asking someone else to read a questionable passage is often helpful.
In general, though, I'd stick to the source text but without duplicating obvious grammatical errors. If a source text seems like gibberish to me because it's so badly written, I would send it back and refuse to translate it.
<... See more I've sometimes found that a passage that isn't clear to me in a source text is clear to another reader. Or a passage that has one meaning to me has a different meaning to someone else. Asking someone else to read a questionable passage is often helpful.
In general, though, I'd stick to the source text but without duplicating obvious grammatical errors. If a source text seems like gibberish to me because it's so badly written, I would send it back and refuse to translate it.
But if a text has a lot of repetitions that I find tiresome and redundant, I just translate the text as it is, without comment. If an entire sentence or paragraph is repeated verbatim for no apparent reason, I'd include a note about that. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Vladimír Hoffman
Slovakia
Local time: 15:35
Member (2009)
English to Slovak
+ ...
| Believe it or not, | Mar 31, 2015 |
but this is almost sure road to exhaustion and burn-out (especially in combination with lower rates). Long-term continuous dealing with badly written texts is tedious and laborous and, in my opinion, it can destroy you as a translator. I know that many people every day perform tedious and laborous jobs, but I think that you can not do it and remain creative.
Marcelo da Luz wrote:
My first client/proofreader used to say "Don't loose your time, 'crap in, crap out', we don't get paid to recreate rubbish-like source texts".
I aggree with him, all I do is telling the client about the low quality source text, but I usually follow suit the source text.
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| It depends on how poorly the text is written and what consequences there may be | Apr 1, 2015 |
I also have to deal a lot with poorly written source texts. As many of my translations are of legal texts, I can't just "improve" the text in the target language, as I'm supposed to give a literal translation. My clients frequently haven't written the text themselves either. If they have I sometimes ask them to explain what they wanted to say. Very delicate, as people are easily offended.
If the clients haven't written the text themselves, I explain that the source text is not very clear a... See more I also have to deal a lot with poorly written source texts. As many of my translations are of legal texts, I can't just "improve" the text in the target language, as I'm supposed to give a literal translation. My clients frequently haven't written the text themselves either. If they have I sometimes ask them to explain what they wanted to say. Very delicate, as people are easily offended.
If the clients haven't written the text themselves, I explain that the source text is not very clear and that this affects the translation.
And I definitely try to get rid of clients who frequently send me these kind of documents... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | My Translation | Apr 1, 2015 |
I sent my Client the translation done exactly as the source read and then called his paralegal that had originally sent it, and asked her to print and have him read it immediately. Then to inform me as to whether or not he wanted that or a "corrected" translation. The reaction was swift and definite: "No! What was she thinking when she wrote this! It makes no sense! We will have the person redo this correctly. Thank you. Your check is in the mail"
(His paralegal and I had a good laugh ove... See more I sent my Client the translation done exactly as the source read and then called his paralegal that had originally sent it, and asked her to print and have him read it immediately. Then to inform me as to whether or not he wanted that or a "corrected" translation. The reaction was swift and definite: "No! What was she thinking when she wrote this! It makes no sense! We will have the person redo this correctly. Thank you. Your check is in the mail"
(His paralegal and I had a good laugh over it.) and yes, my check arrived on time. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Hugo De Zela
Peru
Local time: 08:35
English to Spanish
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| Put a clause in your client agreement. | Apr 1, 2015 |
I actually have a clause in my agreement that deals specifically with this;
The CLIENT certifies that the SOURCE has been proof-read and is the ultimate and correct version of the document to be translated; as such, any errors, mistakes, obfuscations, lack of clarity or phrasing shall be reflected directly in the TRANSLATION. Any corrections, amendments or changes resulting thereof shall be entirely under the responsibility of the CLIENT and will be included in th
... See more I actually have a clause in my agreement that deals specifically with this;
The CLIENT certifies that the SOURCE has been proof-read and is the ultimate and correct version of the document to be translated; as such, any errors, mistakes, obfuscations, lack of clarity or phrasing shall be reflected directly in the TRANSLATION. Any corrections, amendments or changes resulting thereof shall be entirely under the responsibility of the CLIENT and will be included in the invoice as "CLIENT-REQUESTED MODIFICATIONS".
More than one company, after reading the agreement has told me to hold off on the translation so they can give it a once-over before letting me get at it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Literary texts | Apr 1, 2015 |
If my client is hoping for his/her work to be published in English, it's a whole different ball game. Experienced professional writers produce work that is sometimes challenging, but basically well written, sometimes brilliant These I translate as closely as possible, sometimes offer alternative words, highlight anything that I've changed - such as idioms -- and so far, happily, my clients know English well enough to understand what and why I may have changed something. I also fact check when I... See more If my client is hoping for his/her work to be published in English, it's a whole different ball game. Experienced professional writers produce work that is sometimes challenging, but basically well written, sometimes brilliant These I translate as closely as possible, sometimes offer alternative words, highlight anything that I've changed - such as idioms -- and so far, happily, my clients know English well enough to understand what and why I may have changed something. I also fact check when I see need.
But some clients are new at writing, know nothing of the requirements of English language fiction publishers, and bring texts that need a lot of doctoring. Tactful negotiation is required, because what I must do is basically become a collaborator so we can end up with a viable manuscript. If the work is any good at all, it can be great fun to do this. It's the author's original story, but I offer various plot, characterization and pacing suggestions and we discuss them. It does mean establishing mutual trust.
In this case, our contract terms are that I am paid a fee up front, and if it gets placed with a publisher later, author gets that amount and we divide the rest.
It's risky, but so is submitting my own work to publishers. ▲ Collapse
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Vladimír Hoffman
Slovakia
Local time: 15:35
Member (2009)
English to Slovak
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| This is very interesting question | Apr 1, 2015 |
I, too, frequently translate legal texts, but I am not so sure that they should be translated literally. I am not talking now about sworn translations where literal translating is explicitly required, but about a common, non-sworn texts like agreements, internal regulations etc.
I am of the opinion (although it always depends on specific conditions) that my task is not only to help my audience to understand a text originally written in foreign language (English in my case), but also to he... See more I, too, frequently translate legal texts, but I am not so sure that they should be translated literally. I am not talking now about sworn translations where literal translating is explicitly required, but about a common, non-sworn texts like agreements, internal regulations etc.
I am of the opinion (although it always depends on specific conditions) that my task is not only to help my audience to understand a text originally written in foreign language (English in my case), but also to help an author if it happens that his/her command of English is poor (as can be seen in the case of many non-natives). Actually, I feel obliged to restylize a text into a fluent Slovak, since I am not of the opinion that the poor English was intentional.
Guillemette Koning wrote:
As many of my translations are of legal texts, I can't just "improve" the text in the target language, as I'm supposed to give a literal translation...
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| | | | | Marylin Monroe? | Apr 1, 2015 |
I do feel comforted by this thread, knowing I am not alone! I also know I am not paid as much as John Sweeney as my word rate does not enable me to indulge in so much research for each translation.
I think there is ample advice here to pick and choose from, just thought I would share my fun with one client who edits a regular magazine that I translate into English. I can guarantee that every issue Ms Monroe will come up and every issue her name will be spelt Marylin at least once. <... See more I do feel comforted by this thread, knowing I am not alone! I also know I am not paid as much as John Sweeney as my word rate does not enable me to indulge in so much research for each translation.
I think there is ample advice here to pick and choose from, just thought I would share my fun with one client who edits a regular magazine that I translate into English. I can guarantee that every issue Ms Monroe will come up and every issue her name will be spelt Marylin at least once.
One issue included interviews with two Hollywood stars and both of their surnames were misspelt. In the end I sent a fairly strong email highlighting a number of errors (in the original) and explained she could either pay me to sub edit as well as translate or sort the crap out herself (a little more politely than that naturally!). She sent me back revised versions with her apologies (one revised version still had a misspelling of the name of the restaurant she was reviewing!).
I agree, not everyone is a born writer but I do get very cross when the client cannot even be bothered to run a spell check on their work.
However, if I really can't grasp the meaning of a sentence I always send it back to the client and politely ask for an explanation. Better they realise it is unintelligible than me try to second-guess the meaning and get it wrong. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 21:35
Chinese to English
| Definitely depends on the situation | Apr 1, 2015 |
Vladimír Hoffman wrote:
I am of the opinion (although it always depends on specific conditions) that my task is not only to help my audience to understand a text originally written in foreign language (English in my case), but also to help an author if it happens that his/her command of English is poor (as can be seen in the case of many non-natives). Actually, I feel obliged to restylize a text into a fluent Slovak, since I am not of the opinion that the poor English was intentional.
As you say, it depends.
If the situation is that the client wants to know what the legal document says, then I agree with the above, and I try to translate based on what the author meant.
But the point with legal documents is that they don't just have meaning, they have legal force. If there is any chance that the client wants to understand the legal force of the document, then they need to know not just what the author meant, but what a judge might interpret the document to mean. If the document is badly written, the client needs to know, and exactly what the flaws are.
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