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dealing with poor source texts
Thread poster: Maria Popiel
Ronald Matthyssen
Ronald Matthyssen  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 06:09
Member (2012)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Three levels of tackling poor texts Apr 1, 2015

As someone already stated: most people writing texts are neither skilled nor professionals (except for most copywriters in the marketing business). And many texts are actually not passed on in their original state but in a first translation version. So they may come with flaws already.

I have a three-level approach to this:
- outright mistakes in terms of incorrect information (which I am able to corroborate, of course) are corrected and reported to the client
- incomple
... See more
As someone already stated: most people writing texts are neither skilled nor professionals (except for most copywriters in the marketing business). And many texts are actually not passed on in their original state but in a first translation version. So they may come with flaws already.

I have a three-level approach to this:
- outright mistakes in terms of incorrect information (which I am able to corroborate, of course) are corrected and reported to the client
- incomplete sentences, impossible idiom, one-page sentences (or 5-word ones, for that matter) are edited in the mind but reported beforehand, as the client can demand a literal translation (it's their business)
- anything else linked to spelling, grammar, syntax and any other obvious mistakes in the source text which does not affect its contents, is corrected as if it were written without mistakes and is not reported.

And of course, I invest in a text if I can spot that the author did so too. If it's just a number of words slammed down on a keyboard, I don't feel the urge to turn them into a piano sonata. Accuracy is one, literature is another.

A much bigger problem I have encountered is horrible translations by colleagues which I have to proofread for half the money they got for doing a lousy job. In one case, it was done by someone claiming to be a trained translator with 23 years of experience and he completely dismissed all my comments and changes. I was lucky the agency had another translator in the same language pair to confirm I was right. So rather than looking at source texts, I'd prefer to look at texts to be proofread.

Good luck to you all and keep them words coming!
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:09
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Problems with legal texts Apr 1, 2015

Vladimír Hoffman wrote:

I, too, frequently translate legal texts


I was recently given a very big job translating the Italian legislation on gambling with machines (those colourful machines I glimpse through the door of gaming rooms, without ever having gone into one; nor do I have the slightest intention of ever doing so).

This legislation proved to be interesting reading; I learned, for example, that with the new digital control systems the gaming room operator can track the behaviour of each individual gamer on each machine and can remotely change the odds on that machine so that a particular gamer can be given a small win to keep them playing and encourage them to waste more and more money, and can then make them lose it all.

But the most intriguing aspect of doing the translation was the fact that this legislation appears to have been intentionally written to be ambiguous at various points.

This gave me the difficult task of identifying the ambiguity and preserving it in the translation. It was one of the most difficult jobs I've ever done, because the ambiguity was buried in torrents of legalistic prose that I had to read again and again and translate many times until it embodied just the right degree of doubtfulness.

I rather suspect that a great deal of legislation is intentionally written so that it creates a lot of interpretative work for the lawyers who write it. This is a nightmare for the translator.

[Edited at 2015-04-01 13:46 GMT]


 
Thierry Bourguet
Thierry Bourguet  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 06:09
English to French
+ ...
It depends on the text. Apr 1, 2015

I hate loosing my time trying to get and restitute the author's mind.

1/ Before dealing with a new client, I ask 2-3 excerpts in order to estimate the good style of the text.

2/ a/ I find an excuse to refuse the proposed job if it's full of errors.

b/ Once the job accepted, I ask for a longer deadline or a better rate if the text is interesting and counts only 2 or 3 rotten paragraphs. (Generally the deadline is extended).


 
Roy Oestensen
Roy Oestensen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 06:09
Member (2010)
English to Norwegian (Bokmal)
+ ...
What type of text are we talking about? Apr 1, 2015

I have not checked all the comments, but I don't think this question has a clearcut answer. Is this a work of fiction? If so, it would normally be important that the style of the author comes through in the translation. One translator translated Mein Kampf from German to Norwegian, and he would, of course, want to show how badly Herr Hitler did express his thoughts in the original.

If the text is a user manual, on the other hand, it would be imprerative that the translated text is w
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I have not checked all the comments, but I don't think this question has a clearcut answer. Is this a work of fiction? If so, it would normally be important that the style of the author comes through in the translation. One translator translated Mein Kampf from German to Norwegian, and he would, of course, want to show how badly Herr Hitler did express his thoughts in the original.

If the text is a user manual, on the other hand, it would be imprerative that the translated text is without errors and easy to understand. I would not edit the source, but would send queries whenever there would be unclear statements in source. If I am told that the terminology database has to be followed for consistency's sake, I would follow it, but send a note to the customer whenever I discovered errors in the TM (resently I translated a user manual for a watch with a lot of functions, where both the plug and the outlet both were called "contact". I did follow this, but pointed out the error, as this would be the customer's responsibility.

In other instances my goal would probably be to create a text that did not appear translated, but could have been written by a Norwegian, but where I would point out bad expressions in the source whenever it would be too bad.
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Eric Wood
Eric Wood  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:09
German to English
I try to be true to the source... Apr 1, 2015

It does not happen often, but I have had to translate some very poorly written recorded statements, and in those cases I end up trying to be as verbatim about it as I can be. One of my main reasons for doing this is to avoid adding my own interpretation to a text the intended meaning of which I cannot be entirely certain about! (Yes, they can be that bad) It also preserves the original communication in the purest form possible.

Of course, your mileage may vary. Mine might also if a
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It does not happen often, but I have had to translate some very poorly written recorded statements, and in those cases I end up trying to be as verbatim about it as I can be. One of my main reasons for doing this is to avoid adding my own interpretation to a text the intended meaning of which I cannot be entirely certain about! (Yes, they can be that bad) It also preserves the original communication in the purest form possible.

Of course, your mileage may vary. Mine might also if a text isn't quite as poorly written as those I have in mind. For those with only minor mistakes, I will usually either correct them or preserve it with a [sic], depending on the specific circumstances involved.

Probably the best advice to offer is to #1 listen to your client! If they have an opinion on the matter, take heed of it. But if they would rather leave it up to you, then by all means do what you feel is best and don't let others dictate what is 'correct' and what isn't to you. This is ultimately a judgment call and there's no objective right or wrong answer to govern all situations.



-Eric

Maria Popiel wrote:

I've been thinking about asking this for a while. I tried to look for a similar topic in the forum, but couldn't find anything, so here I go.

How do you deal with texts that you are supposed to translate but once you get started, you realise that they are full of syntax errors, plagued with strange and non-existing idioms, with thoughts and concepts linked illogically, with gerunds appearing where they shouldn't be, etc., in short, poorly written texts?

How do you translate such texts?

Do you leave the source text intact and just do your best with the translation, eliminating all possible mistakes in the target text (and thus changing quite a lot of details)?

Or do you translate the same way the source text was written? Or maybe you simply refuse to translate them?

Just to be sure we all mean the same: let's assume that you are sure that the author of the source text did not make all those mistakes on purpose. He believes his text is OK and that it conveys the meaning in an adequate way.

So what is your modus operandi in such situations?
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Mark Possemiers
Mark Possemiers  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 06:09
Member (2013)
Dutch to Spanish
+ ...
very funny Apr 1, 2015

just had a dutch text like that - full of errors (I stopped at number 150 out of 10,000 word text) and informed the agency. No reply.
I told him that I supposed the text (technical blogs) were probably written with errors so as to make them more "realistic". No reply.
Then I delivered the text and got from the agency following reply:
are you an idiot - didn t they tell you that you have to correct the errors?

Hmmm Simply issued a writ in court for my fees.


 
Nils Andersson
Nils Andersson  Identity Verified
United States
English to Swedish
+ ...
And then there are fraudsters... Apr 1, 2015

A couple of time, I have been given a source text that is odd insofar
as the translation is e.g. German to English on how to do home schooling.
This is odd as home schooling is illegal in Germany.

Then it turns out they send me a cachier's check (i.e. written by the bank)
with about twice the fee, and tell me to return the overage. Trouble is,
the cashier's check is fake, and would bounce sooner or later.
This happened to me twice, at which point the
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A couple of time, I have been given a source text that is odd insofar
as the translation is e.g. German to English on how to do home schooling.
This is odd as home schooling is illegal in Germany.

Then it turns out they send me a cachier's check (i.e. written by the bank)
with about twice the fee, and tell me to return the overage. Trouble is,
the cashier's check is fake, and would bounce sooner or later.
This happened to me twice, at which point the quality of the "source"
is irrelevant. WARNING!

At another time some private individual sent me a text in German,
I think it was about foreign adoptions. And she kept emailing me
that a check was in the mail . NOTE people who talk overmuch
about payment probably won't pay you. I looked at the German
text and did not think it looked right - often the main point seemed
to be missing. So I wrote the woman, asking what she wanted me
to do.

At the same time, I sent the text to a native German-speaker, asking
for a general opinion. Her opinion was BAD GERMAN. Between us,
we figured out that my prospective client
1) Was a college or high-school student needing to write a report
2) Knew that submitting a downloaded text might backfire - teachers
are wise to this method will Google the submitted material.
3) Had figured out that translation plus backtranslation would
probably mask the source.
4) Had run the English text through Google Translate or similar
5) Wanted me to do a backtranslation (without telling me that)
6) Had no intention of paying me.

OH, and she never answered my email wondering what she
wanted me to do.
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Châu Nguyễn
Châu Nguyễn  Identity Verified
Vietnam
Local time: 12:09
Member (2012)
English to Vietnamese
+ ...
Sort it out with your client Apr 2, 2015

I would contact my client right away for clarification. If client's response is unsatisfactory or ambiguous, I will reject the job. I had a case where I continued with the poorly written source text and then the client complained why the translation was so bad. Better safe than sorry then.

Marcia Neff
 
Roberto Quintero-Domínguez
Roberto Quintero-Domínguez
Mexico
Local time: 23:09
English to Spanish
Experience Apr 2, 2015

About 15 years ago I was hired by a museum to translate the captions of a photography exhibit coming from LA, CA to Mexico. The author of such captions was the artist himself, and surely enough, he tried to pour his artistic talents into his texts as well. What he ended up with was really awkward, something hard to follow. I had a really good time translating that, doing my best to maintain the register because I thought the author had done that intentionally. I turned my work in, got paid and a... See more
About 15 years ago I was hired by a museum to translate the captions of a photography exhibit coming from LA, CA to Mexico. The author of such captions was the artist himself, and surely enough, he tried to pour his artistic talents into his texts as well. What he ended up with was really awkward, something hard to follow. I had a really good time translating that, doing my best to maintain the register because I thought the author had done that intentionally. I turned my work in, got paid and a few months later I found out they had absolutely hated it and resent it to another translator without saying a word to me.

As many of you have said it, active communication with the client, knowing who the final user of the translated text will be and consideration of potential consequences of faulty writing are all factors to keep in mind before doing the work.

More recentely I translated a book on rural sociology. When I first read the book and realized how poorly written it was I talked to the author and made him see the need to improve the original text, all in a very respectful and illustrating way. He decided to hire me to edit and correct the style of the original and then to translate it.

I find my clients enjoy when I explain to them the importance of a well written text and also when I show them the problems in their originals, mention the possible consequences and tell them how we can correct them. I take them by the hand and they like that.
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Marcia Neff
 
Chaya Cohen
Chaya Cohen  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 08:09
Hebrew to English
+ ...
No-on here has mentioned the main reason Apr 2, 2015

In my experience, most badly written texts are poor translations - clients and agencies receive a text in one language and translate it into English before sending it on to be translated "professionally" into several target languages - sometimes it appears they've done this using Google Translate...

 
island-vlad
island-vlad  Identity Verified
English to Russian
+ ...
A method Apr 2, 2015

I use this method again and again, it works fine in some cases of obscure source texts. I mean, translator's questions to their clients to get explanations from them. In most cases, we often have a translation agency between us and our client, so we ask questions to the translation agency and they transmit the questions to their client. Yes, it works, and not so bad.

Another thing, when the agency's clients themselves didn't understand to the end what they had meant in some sentenc
... See more
I use this method again and again, it works fine in some cases of obscure source texts. I mean, translator's questions to their clients to get explanations from them. In most cases, we often have a translation agency between us and our client, so we ask questions to the translation agency and they transmit the questions to their client. Yes, it works, and not so bad.

Another thing, when the agency's clients themselves didn't understand to the end what they had meant in some sentences written down by them, for example, on the screen of their machine. But it's another story... The stories like mentioned one are really terrific, no words can explain your feelings and wasted time. I exactly know I haven't got magician potions to read client's thoughts
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Paul Knox (X)
Paul Knox (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:09
German to English
Been there... Apr 2, 2015

We all share this pain; the finished translation will usually be better than the original text. I am generally surprised when I receive a document that is well-written, makes consistent use of terminology - and has actually been spelling-checked. This will probably remain the exception and not the rule. We grit our teeth, do our best, and point out at least the most egregious errors in translation notes. What is more than annoying, however, is when the customer later complains about the quality ... See more
We all share this pain; the finished translation will usually be better than the original text. I am generally surprised when I receive a document that is well-written, makes consistent use of terminology - and has actually been spelling-checked. This will probably remain the exception and not the rule. We grit our teeth, do our best, and point out at least the most egregious errors in translation notes. What is more than annoying, however, is when the customer later complains about the quality of the translation. It is not always possible to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.Collapse


 
Brian R Mossop
Brian R Mossop
Local time: 01:09
French to English
Three kinds of poorly written source text Apr 2, 2015

In my experience, there are three very different kinds of poorly written text. First, some texts have bad grammar and spelling but you can tell what the author means. This is easy to handle: you just write the translation in good English, Chinese, Russian or whatever the target language is, and if the client so desires, you supply a list of language errors present in the source text. You don't try to imitate bad writing, for two reasons. First, you are likely to produce a very literal, even a wo... See more
In my experience, there are three very different kinds of poorly written text. First, some texts have bad grammar and spelling but you can tell what the author means. This is easy to handle: you just write the translation in good English, Chinese, Russian or whatever the target language is, and if the client so desires, you supply a list of language errors present in the source text. You don't try to imitate bad writing, for two reasons. First, you are likely to produce a very literal, even a word-for-word translation, which will not be similar to poor writing by native speakers of the target language. Second, translation is not a good way for clients to find out how well the source text is written: all they are seeing is your own ability to write (well or poorly) in the target language.

The other kind of poorly written text is one in which you cannot tell what the author means, not because the subject matter is too difficult for you but because the author is such a bad writer. Here the main problem is just figuring out the meaning. About 20 years ago, I led some workshops here in Canada and wrote an article about methods for figuring out meaning, which you can find here if interested: http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/favart/index-eng.html?lang=eng&lettr=indx_autr8D4Qx-kn2xlI&page=95D0QuFqwMUE.html. Or just enter "understanding poorly written source texts" in Google.

The third kind is source texts written in the author's second (or third) language. The author may or may not speak the source language well but cannot write it well (because they were not educated in that language). There's a small literature on editing this kind of writing. For instance: Burrough-Boenisch, Joy (2013) Righting English That’s Gone Dutch (3rd edition), Voorburg: Kemper Conseil Publishing. But it is best if you know the author's first language, since they may be mentally translating from that language as they write.
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Maria Popiel
Maria Popiel  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 06:09
Spanish to Polish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you all for your input! Apr 2, 2015

This thread has become a great source of possible solutions! Thank you for participating

Personally, I don't translate legal documents so reading about problems related to it was very interesting (like intended ambiguity!!!).

In general, I've realised I have two approaches.

When I translate medical documentation I do not allow myself to be (too) creative. Those texts can be poorly written an
... See more
This thread has become a great source of possible solutions! Thank you for participating

Personally, I don't translate legal documents so reading about problems related to it was very interesting (like intended ambiguity!!!).

In general, I've realised I have two approaches.

When I translate medical documentation I do not allow myself to be (too) creative. Those texts can be poorly written and that's OK. They are not meant to be literature. They are meant to be useful and to deliver important information. What is at stake is someone else's health or even life. That's why I try to be accurate and VERY careful. If in doubt, I do a profound research and ask people who may understand the topic better.

(Well, I do need to be linguistically careful and creative if the text is both medical and literature at the same time!)

But apart from medical translations, I have translated or proofread/edited many articles or semi-literary texts, testimonials, etc. In this kind of jobs, on several occasions I have been lucky to work for some very brilliant people.

And just because they were so brilliant, they were sometimes not very good at conveying their message. They assumed that everyone would understand their mind's shortcuts, I guess.

In such situations, I don't believe the rule "crap in, crap out" would be of benefit to anyone. Or at least I am not able to adopt this attitude even if I have to spend more time translating such texts. I like the final version of translated text to be something that flows nicely and sounds natural in the target language. Sometime it means "crap in, but NO crap out".
I want the final reader to forget - at least while he's reading - that what he's dealing with is a translation.
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Deby Novitz
Deby Novitz  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 02:09
Spanish to English
Dealing with poor source texts Apr 2, 2015

The first time this happened to me was when I was asked to translate a screenplay from Spanish to English. It was written in Argentine Spanish. The issue I had was badly spelled words and situations that were impossible to reproduce properly.

In the first case, I had to ask the client what he meant. He used the word "valla" in his text which is a word. However it did not fit into the context. What he meant to write was "vaya". Throughout the document he used the "spoken" versio
... See more
The first time this happened to me was when I was asked to translate a screenplay from Spanish to English. It was written in Argentine Spanish. The issue I had was badly spelled words and situations that were impossible to reproduce properly.

In the first case, I had to ask the client what he meant. He used the word "valla" in his text which is a word. However it did not fit into the context. What he meant to write was "vaya". Throughout the document he used the "spoken" version of the word, rather than how it is actually written.

The second case, the screenplay written by an Argentine was for the U.S. market. It took place in the U.S. The author ironically had never lived in the US. When I called to his attention the "boss cannot kiss his employees good morning" he was shocked. This happens all the time.

I discussed both situations with my client. He agreed to pay me for my time to rewrite properly the few scenes that were impossible and to pay a surcharge for the bad spelling and grammar.

Each time this situation comes up I am upfront about it with my clients. I cannot spend time on Spanish that is badly written without being compensated. I hope this helps.
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Marcia Neff
 
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dealing with poor source texts







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