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Off topic: How do you think UK leaving EU would affect our profession?
Thread poster: Balasubramaniam L.
Huw Watkins
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Unelected legislature and ever closer Union Jun 20, 2016

I hate to get political, however I think it is important qualify all arguments with counter-arguments in order to get a balanced view.

Many decry the fact that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic in the fact that it has a completely unelected legislature in Brussels and this impacts enormously on our lives.

I would counter this by saying that the UK itself also has a completely unelected legislature left over from the days of serfdom and, some would argue,an outdated p
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I hate to get political, however I think it is important qualify all arguments with counter-arguments in order to get a balanced view.

Many decry the fact that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic in the fact that it has a completely unelected legislature in Brussels and this impacts enormously on our lives.

I would counter this by saying that the UK itself also has a completely unelected legislature left over from the days of serfdom and, some would argue,an outdated peerage system - the House of Lords.

It is also important to note that that it is an undeniable fact that 37% of people who voted in the last general election voted Conservative and they won a majority. I am not stating anti-conservative views here, I am trying to make a point that UK is fundamentally undemocratic to the core. The idea that UK politicians are going to look after the working man, unlike it's EU counter-part, quite frankly is absolutely laughable. Our government swings from left to right repeatedly and the general population never has any say on the really important things that affect our day to day life. Take the implementation of tuition fees by a Labour government no less. Politicians betray the political agenda of their party at large at will, to the point that the average voter has no idea what they will get when they vote a given party in. Tony Blair and the wars in the Middle-East and the whole weapons-of-mass-destruction fiasco is another fine example. Conservatives now talking about nationalising the steel industry, having privatised it a few short decades before (let's not even mention the desecration of the coal industry through closure and the pursuit of policies of privatisation of all public infrastructure, which some have touted will even extend to the NHS eventually) is another. Now, who knows? Perhaps Labour will privatise the NHS and Conservatives will make the steel industry government owned or part-owned? Either way, you can be damn sure that neither you nor I will have any say in that whatsoever.

Also with regard to a united, centralised Political EU, nobody appears to be talking about the exemption from an ever closer union that our PM David Cameron secured for the UK. Some may palm this off as a half-measure and weak compromise. I see it as an important hurdle and veto power for UK against a centralised EU, politically speaking - should we remain.

Personally I may not like the EU and all its corruption, lack of democracy and powermongering, but I also don't trust UK politicians and parties either - or the unelected House of Lords... Damned if you do, damned if you don't in my eyes. That's a pessimistic outlook, but I think it is the reality we live in. In which case, we may as well stay in the EU and at least continue to reap some of the economic benefits it offers and continue to support the financially less strong countries in the EU as a good-neighbourly and even Christian thing to do.

[Edited at 2016-06-20 08:45 GMT]
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Dan Lucas
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Why multiply the insanity? Jun 20, 2016

Huw Watkins wrote:
nobody appears to be talking about the exemption from an ever closer union that our PM David Cameron secured for the UK.

Huw, it is debatable whether this exemption has any significance, but in either case it has long been acknowledged. It was not a new concession won by Cameron.

It was for example formally and explicitly stated as recently as 2014 in point 27 of this European Council document that "...the concept of ever closer union allows for different paths of integration for different countries, allowing those that want to deepen integration to move ahead, while respecting the wish of those who do not want to deepen any further."
Personally I may not like the EU and all its corruption, lack of democracy and powermongering, but I also don't trust UK politicians and parties either - or the unelected House of Lords...

I agree with much of what you say and I feel that it's a shame we didn't vote for proportional representation a few years back when we had the chance, but I don't think your conclusion is logical.

Adding additional layers of unaccountable bureaucrats on top of the UK's existing layers of semi-unaccountable bureaucrats has not been a neutral move with no consequences. It has taken us further from a solution.

Regards
Dan


 
Thomas T. Frost
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Psychos and special treatment Jun 20, 2016

Indeed, one cannot predict the outcome of either choice; both come with unknown risks.

But one can always look at the bigger picture: do we want democratic control of our countries, or do we want to be ruled by unelected civil servants in Brussels?

Michael Wetzel wrote:
That was actually my main motivation for my last post: People have gotten so riled up about this that someone was actually brutally murdered on the street, partly or entirely because of the extremism and alarmism surrounding this debate.


No, "people" have not gotten so riled up that someone was murdered. We're talking about one isolated person with psychological problems. I have not come across any extremism in the debate. A lot of alarmism and exaggeration, but we cannot shut down public debate because one out of 50 million people may be so psychologically ill he can't take it.

But if you do want to talk about people who died in relation to the EU, we could look at Greece, where the euro-fuelled financial crisis has led to a rise in suicides:
http://www.newsweek.com/greek-crisis-has-seen-rise-suicides-and-depression-353056 :
“New research using official statistics shows a 35 percent jump in the suicide rate during the first two years of austerity programs, with researchers linking every percentage point in additional unemployment to an incremental increase in the suicide rate among working-age men.”
So the EU can be deadly indeed.
The Greek youth unemployment rate is presently 50 %.
All thanks to the EU and the euro.

Michael Wetzel wrote:
They are always complaining and getting special treatment and just don't really fit in.


Germany and France just do what they please, violating the rules when it suits them. Merkel effectively unilaterally scrapped the Dublin agreement and let Europe be flooded by people in an uncontrolled way. France keeps violating the euro Stability Pact, and so do many others; even Germany has broken it. And everybody gets away with it, so that is special treatment indeed.

Jean-Claude Juncker even recently said that France is given budget leeway "because it is France". http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-deficit-france-idUKKCN0YM1N0 . There you have your special treatment.

I don't think it's fair to single Britons out for "always complaining" either. There is as much discontent with the EU in many other EU Member States as in the UK. These people simply aren't heard. More and more Germans are complaining, by the way, and it can be seen in the rise of parties and organisations such as AfD and Pegida. In France, it can be seen in the rise of the Front National. In Austria, we've seen it too. Germany is trying to implement a motorway toll system only for foreigners (Germans would get the tolls refunded), and the European Commission is up in arms over it. How 'European' is that?

Statistically, almost twice as many infringement procedures are opened against Germany as against the UK, and Germany is in the higher end of 'misbehaving' Member States, while we find the Nordic countries, then the Netherlands and the UK near the bottom:

http://www.eipa.eu/files/repository/eipascope/20070622102127_pniSCOPE2007-1_internet-7.pdf
http://www.polsoz.fu-berlin.de/polwiss/forschung/international/europa/arbeitspapiere/2012-15_BoerzelKnoll_Non-Compliance.pdf

Only Italy, France, Greece and Belgium are worse than Germany. Just to put things in their place.


 
Charlie Bavington
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Two wrongs... Jun 20, 2016

Huw Watkins wrote:

I hate to get political, however I think it is important qualify all arguments with counter-arguments in order to get a balanced view.

Many decry the fact that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic in the fact that it has a completely unelected legislature in Brussels and this impacts enormously on our lives.

I would counter this by saying that the UK itself also has a completely unelected legislature left over from the days of serfdom and, some would argue,an outdated peerage system - the House of Lords.



... just mean you have two potentially undesirable states of affairs. As any child brought up in an English-speaking household knows, "two wrongs...", and all that. The existence of the House of Lords is not, therefore, a particularly persuasive factor, and does not somehow cancel out arguments about the democratic process in the EU.


 
Thomas T. Frost
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So some countries' EU plans are 'nobler' than others'? Jun 20, 2016

Michael Wetzel wrote:

To be honest, I personally don't feel like the UK really belongs in the EU. They are always complaining


I'm sure you didn't mean anything derogatory with that comment, but it can nevertheless be seen like that. This is not personal. You just said something we often hear, so it's not about you.

You automatically base your argument on Germany's plans for the EU somehow being more 'noble' and 'righteous' than the UK's (or the Nordic countries') plans. If we don't follow Germany's orders, then we are "always complaining".

But what makes Germany think it is in a position to tell the rest of Europe what to do? Why is what Germany wants "right", and what the UK and the Nordic countries want "wrong"? I have great respect for Germany and Germans, just as for the UK and Britons, but I would have even more respect for Germany if its leaders learned some humility instead of incessantly trying to enforce their will upon everybody else.

The EU was not intended to be dominated by one or a few countries. In principle, all Member States are equal. But Germany and France presume they have an automatic hegemony as leading EU Member States. I've never voted for that, and I resent that feeling of supremacy.

The UK and Denmark were 'sold' a common market when their voters approved it in 1971, not a supranational government. So I think people have every right to complain when the project is moving along in an unwanted direction. It is fully legitimate in a democracy to criticise politics we disagree with.


 
Charlie Bavington
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Sadly for Scotland Jun 20, 2016

Sheila Wilson wrote:

If the UK votes to leave then Scotland will leave, as part of the UK. But will they be happy to stay with England in a bubble outside of the EU? I for one very much doubt it. The first thing they will do, IMO, is renew their call for independence. This time I can't see any reason for Scots voting to stay with England; they'll choose the far more powerful EU.


If there is Brexit, and then Scotland fancies going on a solo mission, there is a school of thought that says Spain will veto any attempt by Scotland to join the EU as a separate entity. It would, the theory says, do this so as to discourage its own regions, notably Catalonia, from getting any fancy notions of leaving Spain and joining the EU.

This strikes me as a pity, but then back in my younger days, I'd always dreamed of an EU where regions were the predominant unit of government (not least because I thought it might ease the situation in N. Ireland - if it was more a member of a wider European body and less a member of the UK (i.e. its being in the UK was much, much less relevant than its being in the EU), I thought people might rub along more amicably). Spain's attitude, and the EU's acquiescence, epitomises exactly why it is possible to love Europe and utterly despise the EU with every fibre. Article 5 and subsidiarity? Don't make me laugh.

To answer the OP's question - not much. As has been pointed out, where the EU requires words to be written in English, that will not change. Once the dust has settled, I don't see much difference in trade and commercial demand - business is business and will continue to be done, as it has been for centuries, while the merchant classes have breath in their bodies The question might be, how long will it take the dust to settle?

(edited for extra clarity - I hope! - on the regions/NI, and again to answer the actual question)

[Edited at 2016-06-20 12:09 GMT]


 
Dan Lucas
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Conversation with a Guardianista Jun 20, 2016

Thomas T. Frost wrote:
It is fully legitimate in a democracy to criticise politics we disagree with.


"You know it's funny you should say that. I do find that people voting for Brexit - and this is a terrible thing to say but it's true - are uneducated Sun-reading Little Englanders who just don't understand what a cosmopolitan era we live in.

I beg your pardon, I didn't realise you support, er...
I didn't mean to say they - you - all Brexiters are Little Englanders.
But quite a few are, you know.

Oh, you're not English, I do apologise.
So you don't read The Sun...? No of course not, how silly of me.

Hander, Handels... - I'm sorry, how do you pronounce that again?

Hand - es - blatt? Handelsblatt!
Gosh. That's like the Belgian equivalent of Le Monde, isn't it?

It's not Belgian, I see. I think I actually knew that.

Hah, me, read Le Monde? Oh you flatter me!
I mean, I do pick up a copy on holiday every now and again.
Excellent photojournalism, which is so rare these days, don't you think?
Yes, yes, I did French at school.
Even got a 'C' at O-level actually.
You?

Ah, you do. Well, that's... excellent.
Yes, I suppose 15 years living in France does help.

In Germany now, you don't say? My goodness.
So that makes... Three languages you speak fluently.

And Danish, yes, how silly of me. Four then.

Plus conversational Spanish and a ... smattering of Polish.

Gosh, well if you want more than a smattering come to Islington.
Sometimes I think every other tradesman or nanny is Polish.

Good heavens no, ours is French!

Oh, very nice people, the Poles, but quite, quite different from us.
You should see the Polish girls, unhealthily skinny if you ask me.
And really it's quite shocking how skimpily they dress.
I caught Tarquin staring at next door's au pair the other day -
Anyway.
But golly, I envy you having lived in all these different places.
I mean travel is so educational isn't it?
Steeping yourself in different cultures, you know.
Immersion and all that.

Me? No, never lived abroad myself. Too busy.
Just never got round to it.
And you know, holidays are fine but living in Europe...
We did think about the Dordogne at one point but now that she's turned eight years old Jemima's at a rather delicate stage of her education and -

Yes, exactly, it's shocking how parochial the French schools are!
Apparently there are no lessons in English at all!
I mean, this is the twenty-first century after all.
Wonderful health system in France but their education lags a little if you ask me.

Oh, very droll Mr. Frost, Cumbria instead of the Dordogne?!
Not quite the same. The wine's not nearly as good for a start.
I had a friend who went to Cumbria once.

Us? Live outside of London?
Surely you jest Mr. Frost.
After all, where would I do my Pilates?"





[Edited at 2016-06-20 14:10 GMT]


 
Maxi Schwarz
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back to the original question Jun 20, 2016

which was "How do you think the UK leaving EU would affect our profession?"
In all honesty, I was puzzled by the question and didn't see why it would, and that also made me feel a tad stupid. I went through this thread just now, and see arguments for and against Brexit, but haven't seen much about how it would affect our profession, so I'm still largely in the dark.

I translate into English and do all kinds of documents. There have been invitations to tender bids, where a Ca
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which was "How do you think the UK leaving EU would affect our profession?"
In all honesty, I was puzzled by the question and didn't see why it would, and that also made me feel a tad stupid. I went through this thread just now, and see arguments for and against Brexit, but haven't seen much about how it would affect our profession, so I'm still largely in the dark.

I translate into English and do all kinds of documents. There have been invitations to tender bids, where a Canadian or American automotive parts co. wants to know what the German document says, a scientific research paper that helped a legal firm argue its case, loads of documents for the purpose of immigration or studying abroad or employment or citizenship .... in various English speaking countries which sometimes includes Great Britain. A lot of my work involves Europe in some way, but I don't think it involves Britain much. And even when it involves Britain, does that get impacted by the Brexit decision? I can't see it.

So when does a translator potentially get impacted by it, and if so, how? Is it when they translate a particular type of material and/or from particular types of clients? I assume that the English language has to be in the equation. How could a Spanish to Chinese translator be affected, for example?

I'm genuinely asking because this has had me curious since the question first popped up.
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Huw Watkins
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I agree that perhaps I didn't arrive at my conclusion via a particularly logical path Jun 20, 2016

Dan Lucas wrote:

I agree with much of what you say and I feel that it's a shame we didn't vote for proportional representation a few years back when we had the chance, but I don't think your conclusion is logical.

Adding additional layers of unaccountable bureaucrats on top of the UK's existing layers of semi-unaccountable bureaucrats has not been a neutral move with no consequences. It has taken us further from a solution.

Regards
Dan


and

Charlie Bavington wrote:

... just mean you have two potentially undesirable states of affairs. As any child brought up in an English-speaking household knows, "two wrongs...", and all that. The existence of the House of Lords is not, therefore, a particularly persuasive factor, and does not somehow cancel out arguments about the democratic process in the EU.


I would qualify my pessimism above by saying that I don't believe the situation regarding democracy and sovereignty in the EU to be anywhere near as dire as many would have us believe. Far from it. While the European Commission is an unelected body (the Eurocrats that everyone keeps debasing), it cannot pass any law without the agreement of the European Parliament AND the Council - who are elected by the each of the respective member states. In fact the Council is "made up of the heads of state or government of all EU countries, the European Commission President and the High Representative for Foreign Affairs & Security Policy. It is convened and chaired by its President, who is elected by the European Council itself for a once-renewable two-and-a-half-year term. The President represents the EU to the outside world."

The EU is essentially run by the Council and the Parliament (not the Commission/Eurocrats) with the big 3 (UK, France and Germany) having arguably the most power and influence on all EU policy.

I found this video from an EU Law Professor from Liverpool University to be extremely informative on the matter:

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-industrial-scale-eu-law-expert-analyses-referendum-debate/

P.S. The video is far less sensationalist and far more measured than the title suggests, in case it was putting you off.

The same video with the far less provocative title (Professor Michael Dougan on the EU Referendum) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y

[Edited at 2016-06-20 18:09 GMT]


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
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saving face and the rest Jun 20, 2016

The economical European Nations globalization via abusive politics (empty promises, blatant lies, bribery, intimidation, assassination, provocation, anti-government funds, exclusive rights and so on)... come again? Shared markets and equal right for all?! It's more like 'being almost friends' against somebody else.

"We are the sanctions!" But who's their masters then?

As far as it appears there no much use to mix--oops!--'reform' a bowl of Frankenstein-like PanEuropean
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The economical European Nations globalization via abusive politics (empty promises, blatant lies, bribery, intimidation, assassination, provocation, anti-government funds, exclusive rights and so on)... come again? Shared markets and equal right for all?! It's more like 'being almost friends' against somebody else.

"We are the sanctions!" But who's their masters then?

As far as it appears there no much use to mix--oops!--'reform' a bowl of Frankenstein-like PanEuropean offal for there's always "more equal" among the equals, I think that the Great Britain (and any other country) has the right to reconsider the project up to very her goals and either call it a day or abandon it--before it's too late.

As for translators and interpreters, even if there would be nuances, I don't think it will take long before things fall in place. One of my direct clients is from Britain, and he said there's no need to re-open the markets or something. Perhaps, a few international linguists might suffer to some extend.
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Thomas T. Frost
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The original question Jun 21, 2016

Parkinson's Law taken into account, the leaving process may well generate more translation work through a number of years. To quote from Wikipedia: Parkinson described "the increase in the number of employees at the Colonial Office while Great Britain's overseas empire declined (he shows that it had its greatest number of staff when it was folded into the Foreign Office because of a lack of colonies to administer)."

Something else: IF the Brexiters are right about leaving the EU bei
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Parkinson's Law taken into account, the leaving process may well generate more translation work through a number of years. To quote from Wikipedia: Parkinson described "the increase in the number of employees at the Colonial Office while Great Britain's overseas empire declined (he shows that it had its greatest number of staff when it was folded into the Foreign Office because of a lack of colonies to administer)."

Something else: IF the Brexiters are right about leaving the EU being beneficial for the British economy, then the logical result should, in theory, be more economic activity in the UK and thus also more translations related to that. At least in the long term, once a new status is settled. Until then, the administrative upheaval resulting from leaving may well provide a surge in work, as mentioned above.

This cannot be proven, so there is no point starting a debate about this possibly being wrong. Yes, it could be wrong. It's only a hypothesis.
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Balasubramaniam L.
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My view Jun 21, 2016

Maxi Schwarz wrote:

I'm genuinely asking because this has had me curious since the question first popped up.


I am glad you are steering the discussion back to the original question.

The way I see it is, if the UK leaves the EU, UK will actively try to establish direct trade and diplomatic relationships with a host of countries around the world, and other countries too would try to directly trade and deal with UK. This will necessarily increase translation work, as not all countries speak or use English. This will increase the need in UK for translators translating from English to other languages, and in other non-English-speaking countries wanting to trade with the UK for translators translting from their languages to English.

Currently, over 50% of the UK trade is directed at the EU, which too would change as UK would try to diversify into other economic areas.

Many commonwealth countries have currently established businesses in the UK as they use the UK as an entry point into the EU market. These former colonies of the UK find it more comfortable operating from UK as UK is the known devil for them and they are familiar with its language and legal system. Many of them have their diaspora in the UK. The EU, on the other hand, is a labrinth for them. If the UK leaves the EU, UK will no longer have this advantage, and all these commonwealth nations would be forced to directly deal with the EU or its constituents. This means they will now have to translate from their languages into the main European languages, bypassing English. This would generate translation work in language pairs that don't include English. The nations could also use English for this purpose, but they could also come to the conclusion that this might not be strategic as EU could be harbouring displeasure towards the UK, and it would not be a good stragegy to send communications in English to Eurocracy, and they might place their bet on German or French languages instead. The non-commonwealth countries would of course prefer to deal with EU directly in the various non-English European languages.

This is why I had earlier said that the UK exit from EU could contribute to the eventual decline of English as a global language.

Of course all this would pan out over many years and decades, and might not pan out also, if we get a remain vote in UK the day after tomorrow.

[Edited at 2016-06-21 11:17 GMT]


 
Thomas T. Frost
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A theory, not a fact Jun 21, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
If the UK leaves the EU, UK will no longer have this advantage, and all these commonwealth nations would be forced to directly deal with the EU or its constituents.


Since none of us has a crystal ball, we cannot know what sort of Single Market arrangement the UK will end up with if it leaves. IF they get something similar to the Norwegian or Swiss arrangement, it may not be necessary to change anything.

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
This is why I had earlier said that the UK exit from EU could contribute to the eventual decline of English as a global language.


English is the lingua franca in notably business and IT, and it is dominant in film and music. The international status of English has nothing at all to do with the EU. Hence, cutting some ties to the EU, an increasingly irrelevant entity in global business and trade, is likely to have no effect whatsoever.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
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There are many aspects to businesses Jun 21, 2016

Thomas T. Frost wrote:

English is the lingua franca in notably business and IT, and it is dominant in film and music. The international status of English has nothing at all to do with the EU. Hence, cutting some ties to the EU, an increasingly irrelevant entity in global business and trade, is likely to have no effect whatsoever.


Yes, all this is pure conjecture and Brexit might not even create a minor ripple in the business world.

But I don't think you are correct when you say that English is the lingua franca of business. Businesses have several aspects, and an important one is marketing. This is one area where English would just won't work. The other area is staff training. Today's business workforce is multi-ingual and multi-cultural and you can't reach them just through English, which is why today, the translation industry is a multi-billion dollar, flourishing industry. If everyone knew English, there won't be any need for translation.

Also, I don't think the EU is an insignificant trade bloc in today's world. In fact, it hold the third position after the US and China. In numbers it is even bigger than the US. In purchasing power parity of its people, it is perhaps several notches above the Chinese. This would hold only if EU remains together as one entity. If it splits up into its constituents, then perhaps it would turn into a non-entity, a fate which awaits the UK, too, if it leaves the EU.

[Edited at 2016-06-21 12:08 GMT]


 
Thomas T. Frost
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Multi-what? Jun 21, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Businesses have several aspects, and an important one is marketing. This is one area where English would just won't work.


No change on that front. French consumers need French marketing, Germans German etc.

About international business, a French TV report on buying in China followed French business people there. They negotiated in English. That does not prove they all do. It's just an illustration.

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Today's business workforce is multi-ingual and multi-cultural and you can't reach them just through English


I think you perhaps over-estimate the multi-cultural aspect of Europeans. As someone who has actually lived in many EU Member States, allow me to express some scepticism about that.

In France, French language and law rule. With a few exceptions, they are not interested in EU law or other languages. As in Germany, all traces of foreign languages are systematically wiped out on TV so the natives can live in their own, national cocoon. When you buy a French 'manager' diary, it only has international information about French-speaking nations. The rest of the world doesn't seem to matter.

Germany is a bit more open to the world, and their diaries have information about many more countries. But apart from some cultural hubs such as Munich or Berlin, you don't get anywhere without German. The EU doesn't have much practical importance in daily German life. When I tried to subscribe to DSL in Germany from France so it would be ready when I needed it, a German contact telephone number was required in the online form. No possibility of entering a French number. No trace of the EU. Only just did they manage to input a French number when I called them, but I lost a rebate because I couldn't do it online. When I needed my French no-claims bonus recognised for a new, German car insurance, it was a six-month battle. And of course, it would have been illegal just to keep my French car insurance. To register a car in Germany, you need electronic proof of a German car insurance. No sign of the EU there. One could fill a book with such practical problems, but this will do as examples.

With a few exceptions, Europeans are neither multi-cultural nor multilingual. They are French, Germans, Portuguese, Swedes … not Europeans. Of course, in some business sectors like translation, you naturally find a concentration of linguistic skills, and in some countries, you find more linguistic abilities than others – typically in the small countries, whereas in IT, you naturally find English skills, as that is a technical requirement.

"Insignificant" was an exaggeration, but this graph, showing the West's declining, relative importance in world trade, is nevertheless telling: http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/international/globalisation/international_trade/index_en.htm

But contrary to China, the US, Russia and Japan, the EU is NOT one nation but a bloc of several different nations, cultures, languages and legal requirements. That it has been impossible to agree on one common language says a lot.

Frankly, I don't see any significant change on the horizon, what translation is concerned.


 
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