Französisch: bâtiments officielsEnglisch translation: official buildings 
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| Glossareintrag (aus Frage unten abgeleitet) | | Französisch Begriff oder Satz: | bâtiments officiels | | Englisch Übersetzung: | official buildings | | Eingetragen von: | Tony M |
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Übersetzungen Französisch > Englisch [PRO]
Architektur / history of monastic buildings | | Französisch Begriff oder Satz: bâtiments officiels | This term occurs in a text I'm translating about the great monastery of St Gall [Sankt Gallen] in Switzerland, in reference to the 18th-c. enlargement of the monastery, which involved the addition of 'bâtiments officiels' to the existing monastery buildings and also the building of what is now the cathedral.
Now I assume they mean 'administration buildings', but I just had this nagging doubt that 'officiel' might be to do with 'office' as in religious offices (Mass etc.), and that these might be other types of buildings for worship of some kind. The whole place does seem to have had several chapels etc. on the same site at various times in its history.
Please can anyone confirm this special, religious sense of 'officiel' in connection with buildings, or tell me that I'm barking up the wrong tree and put my mind at rest?
I should add that I have already done a certain amount of (certainly non-exhaustive!) research, all of it realtively incolcusive, but am working to a rather tight deadline here, hence why I'm throwing myself now on the mercy of my KudoZ colleagues! |
|  Tony MKudoZ-AktivitätFragen: 212 (alle geschlossen) Antworten: 7126
Frankreich
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| | official buildings | Erklärung:
Tony, I think that you are covered by the definition for office which includes “a religious or ceremonial observance” (Webster’s). The definition for the adjective gives “of or relating to an office, position, or trust” or “holding an office.”
Catholic Encyclopedia: Abbey
The Carthusian monastery differed considerably in its arrangements from those of other orders. The monks were practically hermits, and each occupied a small detached cottage, containing three rooms, which they left only to attend the services of the church and on certain days when the community met together in the refectory. These cottages opened out of three sides of a quadrangular cloister, and on the fourth side were the church, refectory, chapter-house, and other public offices.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01010a.htm
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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-09-27 16:21:35 GMT)
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The palace itself, located at the northern end of the central avenue, occupied 120ha. It comprised the official buildings where political and religious ceremonies took place, notably the Daigokuden (imperial audience hall) and Chôdô-in (state halls),
Le palais proprement dit, implanté à l’extrémité nord de l’avenue centrale, occupe 120 hectares. Il englobe les bâtiments officiels, sièges des cérémonies politiques et religieuses, notamment le Daigokuden (salle d’audience impériale) et le Chôdô-in (salle
d’apparat)
http://whc.unesco.org/archive/advisory_body_evaluation/870.p...
Le Palais Royal de Bruxelles est un des plus beaux bâtiments officiels de la capitale.
The Royal Palace of Brussels is one of the most beautiful official buildings of the capital.
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/56352/574bf/1/
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Note added at 3 hrs (2007-09-27 17:37:04 GMT)
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As I showed in the entry from the Cathotic Encycloppedia, there is a distinction between the cells for the monks and the public, official buildings.
American Heritage Dictionary
3. Holding office or serving in a public capacity: an official representative.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=official
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Note added at 6 days (2007-10-03 15:30:48 GMT) Post-grading
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You're welcome, Tony, and thank you :-) |
| Ausgewählte Antwort von:
GWC- Claire
Vereinigte Staaten
| Hinweis von Fragesteller an den AntwortendenClaire, thanks for your input; I can't say I'm entirely sure about this one, but like you, I think it must be referring to ancillary buildings over and above the basic ones needed for monastic living, so 'official buildings' is what i went for, in the hope at least of keeping the same ambiguity as there appears to be in the FR! The client was happy, at any rate!
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52 Min. Antwortsicherheit:   |
| religious office
Erklärung:
I certainly found a number of sites where "bâtiment officiel" referred to religious buildings, but of course without intimate knowledge of the history of the monastery it is impossible to sort the wheat from the chaff.
However, I think the civic meaning of "bâtiments officiels" would imply that the monastery had been converted to non-secular use, which does not appear to have been the case here, and I think if it were to refer to ecclesiastic/monastic "officers" there would be a more specific term (abbatiale, épiscop-something, for bishops?, etc.)
If in doubt, fudge it with "addition of new buildings"?
| Bourth
Frankreich
Arbeitsgebiet
Muttersprache: Englisch
PRO-Punkte in Kategorie: 350
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| Hinweise an den Beantworter der Frage
Fragesteller: Thanks, Alex, for your contribution to the melting pot!
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23 Min. Antwortsicherheit: |
| conventual buildings
Erklärung:
I'm not sure how much help I can be here, Tony, never having come across this precise term before.
The common practice in the 17th-18th cc. --in France at least-- was to replace the medieval buildings which served the various non-liturgical purposes of a monastery with spiffy new "moderne" ones.
This usually was done as part of a process of Monastic Reform --ancient Benedictine houses being reformed by the "Congregation de Saint Maur" (based in Paris but spread all over France), or 12th-13th c. ones belonging to the Cistercian Order reformed by the Trappists of Rancé...
I know nothing of the early modern history of St. Gall itself, but your text seems to be suggesting that something similar happened there.
The (modern) French texts usually speak of "batiments conventuels" to describe these new additions/replacements, and they commonly included dormitories, refectories, cloisters, kitchens, gatehouses, maybe the Abbot's house/palace, etc. --but *not* the abbey church itself (though it might have been rebuilt as well, as I believe was the case at St. Gall).
A church would not normally have been referred to as a "conventual building."
In any event, I definitely do not think that your "officiels" here refers to the liturgical "office(s)" --surely you are dealing with (strictly speaking) non-ecclesiastical structures.
Whether these "officiels" buildings were the same as the "conventual" ones I am used to seeing I simply cannot say, never having come across the term before.
Maybe more context would help.
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Note added at 30 mins (2007-09-27 14:46:10 GMT)
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Ah, rereading the beginning of your question (always a good idea, preferably before hitting the "submit" button), I see that what was happening at St. Gall was not (necessarily, or simply) the reform of the monastery itself, but its "erection" (as the French would say) into the status of a cathedral --the seat of a bishop, the administrative center of a diocese.
If that were the case, then there may well have been the necessity of adding, literally, "offices" which would have housed the new diocesan bureaucracy.
So, maybe something like "diocesan administrative buildings" would be appropriate.
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Note added at 32 mins (2007-09-27 14:48:22 GMT)
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The Bottom Line is that You are responsible for the resting of your own mind, but it definetly does seem to me that you've got the wrong tree --though you do seem to have found the right forest.
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Note added at 1 hr (2007-09-27 15:32:50 GMT)
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Right, Tony, if you've got "batiments conventuels" mentioned as well, then they are making a distinction here and we're definitely dealing with the administrative offices of the diocese, it seems to me.
The situation at St. Gall might have been something similar to that which we see/saw in England, where a cathedral church was served by a "monastery" of canons, who made up the cathedral clergy. Such mélanges don't exist in France, but might have in Switzerland.
The "conventual buildings" would have been for the housing/feeding/pooping of the monks/canons; the "office buildings" for the administrators of the diocese.
| | Hinweise an den Beantworter der Frage
Fragesteller: Thanks, Chris! From your very comprehensive explanation, I feel sure these are indeed, therefore, 'services' buildings — and reference is indeed made elswhere to 'conventual buildings', though it is not made clear if they are the same ones or not (different period!)
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1 Stunde Antwortsicherheit: |
| official buildings
Erklärung:
Tony, I think that you are covered by the definition for office which includes “a religious or ceremonial observance” (Webster’s). The definition for the adjective gives “of or relating to an office, position, or trust” or “holding an office.”
Catholic Encyclopedia: Abbey
The Carthusian monastery differed considerably in its arrangements from those of other orders. The monks were practically hermits, and each occupied a small detached cottage, containing three rooms, which they left only to attend the services of the church and on certain days when the community met together in the refectory. These cottages opened out of three sides of a quadrangular cloister, and on the fourth side were the church, refectory, chapter-house, and other public offices.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01010a.htm
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-09-27 16:21:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The palace itself, located at the northern end of the central avenue, occupied 120ha. It comprised the official buildings where political and religious ceremonies took place, notably the Daigokuden (imperial audience hall) and Chôdô-in (state halls),
Le palais proprement dit, implanté à l’extrémité nord de l’avenue centrale, occupe 120 hectares. Il englobe les bâtiments officiels, sièges des cérémonies politiques et religieuses, notamment le Daigokuden (salle d’audience impériale) et le Chôdô-in (salle
d’apparat)
http://whc.unesco.org/archive/advisory_body_evaluation/870.p...
Le Palais Royal de Bruxelles est un des plus beaux bâtiments officiels de la capitale.
The Royal Palace of Brussels is one of the most beautiful official buildings of the capital.
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/56352/574bf/1/
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2007-09-27 17:37:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
As I showed in the entry from the Cathotic Encycloppedia, there is a distinction between the cells for the monks and the public, official buildings.
American Heritage Dictionary
3. Holding office or serving in a public capacity: an official representative.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=official
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 days (2007-10-03 15:30:48 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
You're welcome, Tony, and thank you :-)
| GWC- Claire
Vereinigte Staaten
Muttersprache: Englisch
PRO-Punkte in Kategorie: 14
|
| Hinweis von Fragesteller an den Antwortenden| Claire, thanks for your input; I can't say I'm entirely sure about this one, but like you, I think it must be referring to ancillary buildings over and above the basic ones needed for monastic living, so 'official buildings' is what i went for, in the hope at least of keeping the same ambiguity as there appears to be in the FR! The client was happy, at any rate! |
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