aveu - a description of the holdings in fief, whether rights or property ( translation glossary) Geschichte,Sonstige

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Französisch Begriff oder Satz:	aveu
Englisch Übersetzung:	a description of the holdings in fief, whether rights or property
Eingetragen von:	Christopher Crockett

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10:20am May 29, 2004

Übersetzungen Französisch > Englisch [PRO]
Geschichte

Französisch Begriff oder Satz: aveu

Context: "Elle (a church) était sous l'ancien régime à la nomination du prévôt de Saint-(town); le vicomte de Brosse, dans son aveu de 1552, en revendique la présentation; ce droit lui était contesté par le Seigneur de Piégut. Cet acte ajoute qu'elle vaut 50l. de rente."

and: "D'après un aveu de Lavaupot, les droits de prééminence dans cette église appartenaient aux Seigneurs de Piégut et de Lavaupot."

The nearest French definition I can find is a "document d'enregistrement des terres et des rentes accordées par un seigneur à son vassal," but I'm not sure if that's exactly what I need here, especially in the first example as the Viscount seems to be taking rather than being given. Whatever it is in French, I haven't a clue how to translate it, unless I eliminate the problem altogether and just refer to a "Deed." (This client gives me plenty of leeway so I could get away with that if I'm really stuck, but I'd rather not 'cheat' if I can avoid it!)

I also have two other problems with the first paragraph - "à la nomination du" and "la présentation" - but I'll post those as separate questions later.

Thanks in advance.

Lesley Clayton

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Frankreich

the description of the holdings in fief

Erklärung:
I wouldn't leave it in the French, because...

Even though there certainly *should* be (and most probably is) a corresponding legal term for it in English, since the English "feudal system" worked much the same as the French), the O.E.D. doesn't recognize the word "aveu", so it would appear that that particular word was never in use in England.

If we take apart the defintion of "AVEU" found in The Tresor de l'Langue Fr. :

Droit féodal.

Acte d'un vassal reconnaissant quelqu'un pour seigneur, duquel il déclarait tenir tel heritage,

[This sounds like the act of "homage" --"Formal and public acknowledgement of allegiance, wherein a tenant or vassal declared himself the man of the king or the lord of whom he held, and bound himself to his service" (OED)-- and/or of "fealty" --"The obligation of fidelity on the part of a feudal tenant or vassal to his lord".]

généralement suivi du dénombrement, description détailée des biens composant le fief.

[A "fief" being "An estate in land... held on condition of homage and service to a superior lord, by whom it is granted and in whom the ownership remains; a fief, feudal benefice." OED aside, fiefs could also be made up of things other than real estate, as I'll explain later.]

It looks to me like it is this second, "enumeration" or "description" (or even "census") of the specific pieces of property *or rights* (either or both of which could be held "in fee" or "in fief") which we are dealing with in your quotation.

There is a dispute between the Viscount of Brosse and his immediate overlord, the Lord of Piégut over the rights which the Viscount's Provost in St. Wherever had over the church of that place, which rights included the collection of 50 livres of annual rent.

A detailed description of the fief held by the Viscount in 1552 (which gave him these rights) conflicts with another description --this one of the fief held by the Lords of Piégut and Lavaupot-- which gives *them* (or him) the rights over this church.

I take it that the same Lord held (from a Count, Duke, the King, whoever) the fiefs of both Piégut and Lavaupot, and he was, in turn, the overlord of the Viscount of Brosse, who was, in turn the overlord of the Provost of St. Wherever.

Feudal Law could get very, very complicated.

It already was pretty complicated by 1552, and, 437 years later, it took a Revolution to Straighten it All Out --by simply scraping the whole thing and Starting Over.

I mentioned above that virtually *anything* --not just real estate-- could be held "in fief" : I've seen cases of all sorts of rights to things being held in return for some service or other.

What we have in this case, I believe, is a classic case of "subinfudation" ("The granting of lands [SIC: or rights] by a feudatory to an inferior to be held of himself, on the same terms as he held them of his superior; the relation or tenure so established"), as the Lords of Piégut gave [or didn't give, depending upon which _aveu_ is to be believed] the rights over St. Wherever to the Viscounts of Brosse, who, in turn, hired (or enfiefed) a Provost to exercise those rights in his name.

Clear?

What more can I say?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 25 mins (2004-05-29 17:46:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Well, there is the obsolete word \"allegiance\", which the precious OED defines as :

2. The relation or duties of a liege-man to his liege-lord; the tie or obligation of a subject to his sovereign, or government.

But the instances of use cited don\'t seem to refer to a specific *document* or description of what those duties/obligations/rights might have been :

1399 Langl. Rich. Redeless i. 9 Of alegeaunce now lerneth a lesson oþer tweyne Wherby it standith and stablithe moste;

1494 Fabyan vii. 324 He had, contrary his allegeaunce, made homage vnto Lewys.

1593 Shaks. 2 Hen. VI, v. i. 179 Hast thou not sworne Allegeance unto me?

1651 Hobbes Leviath. i. xii. 60 Subjects may be freed from their Alleageance.

1768 Blackstone Comm. I. i. x. 284 Natural allegiance is therefore perpetual.

1824 Dibdin Libr. Comp. 115 To take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy.

1845 Stephen Laws of Eng. II. 399 We shall now pass from the duties of the sovereign to those which are owing to him from his people, and which are comprehended in the single word allegiance.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 30 mins (2004-05-29 17:50:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So I would just translate the passages as \"the Viscount of Brosse, in the description of his fief in 1552...\" (I *know* that\'s twisting the text somewhat, but it is necessary to get around using a term which is not recognizable in English.)

And \"According to the description of the fief of the Lords of Lavaupot...\"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 36 mins (2004-05-29 17:57:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So I would just translate the passages as \"the Viscount of Brosse, in the description of his fief in 1552...\" (I *know* that\'s twisting the text somewhat, but it is necessary to get around using a term which is not recognizable in English.)

And \"According to the description of the fief of the Lords of Lavaupot...\"

Ausgewählte Antwort von:

Christopher Crockett
Vereinigte Staaten

Hinweis von Fragesteller an den Antwortenden

I'd like to thank you all for your help. I've decided to give the points to Christopher for holding my hand while guiding me through the story lying behind my few lines of text.

Thank you too, Francis, for the interesting references.
4 KudoZ-Punkte wurden für diese Antwort vergeben

ZUSAMMENFASSUNG ALLER ÜBERSETZUNGEN (ENGLISCH)

4 +3

aveu (admission)

Francis MARC

5 -1

moyen de preuve judiciaire, see explanation

legiscriba

the description of the holdings in fief

Christopher Crockett

No translation, additional information

hodierne

Antworten

4 Min. Antwortsicherheit:

Zustimmung (Netto): +3

aveu (admission)

Erklärung:
keep it in french "" with a note or an (explanation)

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: How to translate "aveu"? - [ Traduire cette page ]
... Every new vassal had to renew the "aveu" and the "dénombrement." It also
says than the man "sans aveu" could not invoke anyone's protection. ...
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/ 2002-06/1023139059 - 16k - Résultat complémentaire - En cache - Pages similaires

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: How to translate "aveu"? - [ Traduire cette page ]
... If so, the "aveu" part of "aveu et dénombrement" means the recognition of the
lord by the vassal rather than the description of the seigneurie which would ...
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/ 2002-06/1023137671 - 17k - Résultat complémentaire - En cache - Pages similaires
[ Autres résultats, domaine archiver.rootsweb.com ]

Le Website o' Charlie Jensen V.4 - [ Traduire cette page ]
... The document is an admission (Admission/Aveu: a legal act between the lord and vassal where the vassal consigns in written the conditions of his occupancy and ...
www.chazj.com/indent.htm - 89k

Francis MARC
Litauen
Muttersprache: Französisch
PRO-Punkte in Kategorie: 30

1 Stunde Antwortsicherheit:

No translation, additional information

Erklärung:
I don't know whether it should be translated or not, I am just enclosing some material.

Jean Favier: Dictionnaire de la France médiévale, Fayard.

Aveu: 1. Acte juridique par lequel un vassal déclare devant témoins qu'il tient un bien en fief de son seigneur. L'aveu est la réponse à l'investiture. Il est généralement complété par un dénombrement, ou montrée, véritable inventaire des terres et droits qui constituent le fief. Jusqu'au XIè siècle, bien des aveux ne sont que des déclarations verbales. Le recours à l'écrit conduit ensuite au développement des dénombrements.

Now, GDT translates aveu et dénombrement (Un dénombrement est un document dans lequel un seigneur féodal se reconnaît vassal de son suzerain et énumère les terres qu'il tient de lui et celles pour lesquelles ses propres tenanciers lui ont fait reconnaissance) as feodary, a feudal tenant, according to the New Oxford Dictionary of English. On the other hand, the NOD of English also refers to Feoffment, a grant of ownership of freehold property to someone, from an Anglo-Norman French variant of Old French fieffer "put in legal possession".

FEOFFMENT, in English law, during the feudal period, the usual method
of granting or conveying a freehold or fee. For ... F. FEOFFMENT. ...
37.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FE/FEOFFMENT.htm

Example of a deed of feoffment:

Know all men present and to come, That I, William, son of William de Segenho, have given and granted, and by this my present deed have confirmed, to John, son of John of Saleford, for a certain sum of money which he has paid into my hands, one acre of my arable land, lying in the plain of Saleford, adjoining to the land of Richard de la Mere; to have and to hold all of the aforesaid acre of land, with all its appurtenances, to the aforesaid John, and his heirs and assigns, of the chief lords of the fee: Rendering and performing yearly to the same chief lords the services therefor due and accustomed: and I, the aforesaid William, and my heirs and assigns, warrant all the aforesaid acre of land with all its appurtenances, to the aforesaid John of Saleford and to his heirs and assigns, against all the world forever. In witness whereof, I have put my seal to this present deed. Witness, Nigell of Saleford, John of Seybrooke Radulphus, clerk of Saleford, on the Friday next before the feast of St. Margaret the Virgin, in the sixth year of the reign of King Edward, the son of King Edward.

Memorandum, That on the day and year within written full and quiet seisin of the within specified acre, with its appurtenances, was given and delivered by the within named William de Segenho to the within named John of Saleford, in their own proper persons, according to the tenor and effect of the within written deed, in the presence of Nigell of Saleford, John of Seybrooke, and others.

Source: II Blackstone, Commentaries, Appendix.

However, feoffment would have seemed rather akward in 1552, but you might want to use its definition (grant of........)

hodierne
Italien
Muttersprache: Französisch
PRO-Punkte in Kategorie: 8

6 Stunden Antwortsicherheit:

Zustimmung (Netto): -1

moyen de preuve judiciaire, see explanation

Erklärung:
souvent l'espoir des policiers qui interrogent un prévenu ( supposé être compromis dans l'affaire pénale)""obtenir l'aveu de l'accusé" ce qui représente la preuve judiciaire la plus forte

legiscriba
Frankreich
Muttersprache: Französisch

7 Stunden Antwortsicherheit:

the description of the holdings in fief

Erklärung:
I wouldn't leave it in the French, because...

Even though there certainly *should* be (and most probably is) a corresponding legal term for it in English, since the English "feudal system" worked much the same as the French), the O.E.D. doesn't recognize the word "aveu", so it would appear that that particular word was never in use in England.

If we take apart the defintion of "AVEU" found in The Tresor de l'Langue Fr. :

Droit féodal.

Acte d'un vassal reconnaissant quelqu'un pour seigneur, duquel il déclarait tenir tel heritage,

[This sounds like the act of "homage" --"Formal and public acknowledgement of allegiance, wherein a tenant or vassal declared himself the man of the king or the lord of whom he held, and bound himself to his service" (OED)-- and/or of "fealty" --"The obligation of fidelity on the part of a feudal tenant or vassal to his lord".]

généralement suivi du dénombrement, description détailée des biens composant le fief.

[A "fief" being "An estate in land... held on condition of homage and service to a superior lord, by whom it is granted and in whom the ownership remains; a fief, feudal benefice." OED aside, fiefs could also be made up of things other than real estate, as I'll explain later.]

It looks to me like it is this second, "enumeration" or "description" (or even "census") of the specific pieces of property *or rights* (either or both of which could be held "in fee" or "in fief") which we are dealing with in your quotation.

There is a dispute between the Viscount of Brosse and his immediate overlord, the Lord of Piégut over the rights which the Viscount's Provost in St. Wherever had over the church of that place, which rights included the collection of 50 livres of annual rent.

A detailed description of the fief held by the Viscount in 1552 (which gave him these rights) conflicts with another description --this one of the fief held by the Lords of Piégut and Lavaupot-- which gives *them* (or him) the rights over this church.

I take it that the same Lord held (from a Count, Duke, the King, whoever) the fiefs of both Piégut and Lavaupot, and he was, in turn, the overlord of the Viscount of Brosse, who was, in turn the overlord of the Provost of St. Wherever.

Feudal Law could get very, very complicated.

It already was pretty complicated by 1552, and, 437 years later, it took a Revolution to Straighten it All Out --by simply scraping the whole thing and Starting Over.

I mentioned above that virtually *anything* --not just real estate-- could be held "in fief" : I've seen cases of all sorts of rights to things being held in return for some service or other.

What we have in this case, I believe, is a classic case of "subinfudation" ("The granting of lands [SIC: or rights] by a feudatory to an inferior to be held of himself, on the same terms as he held them of his superior; the relation or tenure so established"), as the Lords of Piégut gave [or didn't give, depending upon which _aveu_ is to be believed] the rights over St. Wherever to the Viscounts of Brosse, who, in turn, hired (or enfiefed) a Provost to exercise those rights in his name.

Clear?

What more can I say?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 25 mins (2004-05-29 17:46:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Well, there is the obsolete word \"allegiance\", which the precious OED defines as :

2. The relation or duties of a liege-man to his liege-lord; the tie or obligation of a subject to his sovereign, or government.

But the instances of use cited don\'t seem to refer to a specific *document* or description of what those duties/obligations/rights might have been :

1399 Langl. Rich. Redeless i. 9 Of alegeaunce now lerneth a lesson oþer tweyne Wherby it standith and stablithe moste;

1494 Fabyan vii. 324 He had, contrary his allegeaunce, made homage vnto Lewys.

1593 Shaks. 2 Hen. VI, v. i. 179 Hast thou not sworne Allegeance unto me?

1651 Hobbes Leviath. i. xii. 60 Subjects may be freed from their Alleageance.

1768 Blackstone Comm. I. i. x. 284 Natural allegiance is therefore perpetual.

1824 Dibdin Libr. Comp. 115 To take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy.

1845 Stephen Laws of Eng. II. 399 We shall now pass from the duties of the sovereign to those which are owing to him from his people, and which are comprehended in the single word allegiance.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 30 mins (2004-05-29 17:50:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So I would just translate the passages as \"the Viscount of Brosse, in the description of his fief in 1552...\" (I *know* that\'s twisting the text somewhat, but it is necessary to get around using a term which is not recognizable in English.)

And \"According to the description of the fief of the Lords of Lavaupot...\"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 36 mins (2004-05-29 17:57:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So I would just translate the passages as \"the Viscount of Brosse, in the description of his fief in 1552...\" (I *know* that\'s twisting the text somewhat, but it is necessary to get around using a term which is not recognizable in English.)

And \"According to the description of the fief of the Lords of Lavaupot...\"

Christopher Crockett
Vereinigte Staaten
Spezialgebiet
Muttersprache: Englisch
PRO-Punkte in Kategorie: 92

Hinweis von Fragesteller an den Antwortenden

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Französisch: aveu

Englisch translation: a description of the holdings in fief, whether rights or property