Französisch: sur le mode du simulacreEnglisch translation: according to the logic of the simulacrum 
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| Glossareintrag (aus Frage unten abgeleitet) | | Französisch Begriff oder Satz: | sur le mode du simulacre | | Englisch Übersetzung: | according to the logic of the simulacrum | | Eingetragen von: | SusanNicholls |
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Übersetzungen Französisch > Englisch [PRO]
Social Sciences - Philosophie / Biography of Deleuze | | Französisch Begriff oder Satz: sur le mode du simulacre | This is in a chapter of a biography of Deleuze about Deleuze and Foucault, and how they both started working on Klossowski and Nietzsche. Here is the full context:
Leur réflexion parallèle sur Klossowski apporte autant à Foucault qu'à Deleuze une problématique commune, directement inspirée de son oeuvre. Elle est placée sous le signe d'un prolongement de la littérature transgressive qui croise la fiction et la philosophie sur le mode du simulacre."
For me the whole sentence is a bit opaque (for example, the "elle" could refer to the "problématique" or to "oeuvre". A vague stab gives me something like:
Through their separate work on Klossowski, both Deleuze and Foucault discovered a common object of inquiry inspired directly by his writings, seen as an extension of transgressive literature involving both fiction and philosophy **as forms of (???) ** simulacra
But I am aware here of not really grasping the relationship between the different concepts in the sentence. Can anyone help me see the light? Perhaps it's obvious, but my poor head is spinning I'm afraid. Thanks! |
| | Notiz(en) an den/des Fragesteller(s)jthink: 10:18pm Jun 29, 2008: Its almost as opaque as my theologian ! and thanks again, Susan, for your help. It really is hard to decide what "elle" refers to- I wondered if the next phrase or the general direction of the following argument might give a clue ?
SusanNicholls: 10:32pm Jun 29, 2008: Right, well it opens onto a quote as follows:
...sur le mode du simulacre: " A la faveur de cette mimesis paradoxale, a la fois actualisante et exorcisante, le simulacre devient le point d'inversion des rapports du profane et du sacré" (quote from an article on Deleuze, Foucault and simulacra). Il importe de réinterroger l'identité factice des choses...." and so forth.
On the question of the verb "croiser", Matthew was right to point out it seems to be key; I think it is maybe "transgressive literature" which "crosses", ie intersects with, lit+phil, thanks to the thematics of the simulacrum. Possibly!!!
Matthew McVeagh: 12:19am Jun 30, 2008: Hmm, well that doesn't sound much fun does it! I can work out most of the French, but that doesn't mean I understand it. ;)
I think I may have been wrong in my answer but haven't worked out a full alternative. Might "croise" be "cruise" or "pass" here?
Matthew McVeagh: 12:22am Jun 30, 2008: The other thing I'm not happy about is "sur". I Googled "sur le mode" but all uses were where "sur" had a 'natural' meaning as "on". I can't work out how it works for "in the manner of".
SusanNicholls: 7:25am Jun 30, 2008: I entirely agree with you Matthew, if it were any other preposition it would be easier!
Matthew McVeagh: 8:25am Jun 30, 2008: So it WAS croiser in the sense of 'interbreeds', but with fic. + phil. Thankyou Melissa for such a clear and comprehensive explanation! This is almost making me want to study this stuff.
Melissa McMahon: 8:49am Jun 30, 2008: You're welcome Matthew, it's nice to use this part of the brain again.
SusanNicholls: 8:58am Jun 30, 2008: Looking at this again, "according to the logic of the simulacrum" is so obviously the right answer, I'm horrified at what I might have put instead if you hadn't stepped in!!! Thanks once more!
Melissa McMahon: 9:05am Jun 30, 2008: If it's any consolation, what the phrase meant was far from clear to me at first!
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| | according to the logic of the simulacrum | Erklärung:
It's not you Susan, it really is tricky, because the phrase "un prolongement de la littérature transgressive qui croise la fiction et la philosophie sur le mode du simulacre" in many ways could apply just as well to Klossowski's work as the "problématique" Foucault and Deleuze locate in it (and also their parallel "reflexion" on it).
After looking at this long and hard, I believe "elle" = Klossowski's work, but I believe the "elle est placé sous le signe de" refers to how Foucault & Deleuze's "reflexion" situates this work.
The sentence says, as I understand it:
Klossowski's work is situated/understood [placé sous le signe de] in Foucault and Deleuze's reflections as an "extension of the tradition of transgressive literature [eg. Sade, Lautreamont], which crosses [in the sense of interbreeds] fiction with philosophy according to the logic of the simulacrum."
The "simulacrum" is presented by Deleuze and Foucault as a whole system or mode of thought or being - which the quote that follows begins to sketch - and I'm sure this is what is referred to when the passage says "sur le mode du simulacre" - ie according to the manner or modus operandi of the simulacrum. It is the 'logic' of the simulacrum that "croise" literature and philosophy, just as it forms a "point of inversion" of the sacred and profane.
"Creates an intersection between" would also work for "croise" - the key is that a point is created where you have something that is neither one or the other, or rather, both. That's the key to Klossowski's "perverse logic" as Deleuze presents it (the key text here is Deleuze's appendix to the Logic of Sense, "Klossowski or bodies-language"; the key Foucauldian text on Klossowski is "The Prose of Acteon").
A lifetime ago I was going to do my thesis on the complicated relations between these three (& Blanchot)... but I suspect it became a bit too bloody complicated :)
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Note added at 7 hrs (2008-06-30 02:01:11 GMT)
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Nb. it has to be "the" simulacrum, not "a", for these reasons. |
| Ausgewählte Antwort von:
 Melissa McMahon
Australien
| Hinweis von Fragesteller an den AntwortendenThank you soooo much Melissa. I can see you are right in all of this.
"Logic" for mode is such a good proposition (why couldn't I think of that?!) It is incredibly difficult sometimes trying to make out what is meant by these kind of "potted philosophy" passages unless you already understand the theories in question. And unfortunately I've got more of a passing acquaintance than an understanding!
Thanks again, thanks for your time, and thanks for being willing to share your knowledge.
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58 Min. Antwortsicherheit:   |
| with the style of pretence
Erklärung:
I think the "sur" goes with the "croise" to produce "crosses (X) with (Y)", Susan.
At first I thought it was "IN the manner of a pretence", much like your "as forms of simulacra", which assumes the two things crossed are philosophy and fiction, but after some examination I think we're meant to take those two together as one side and "le mode du simulacre" as the other.
Probably a better word than "pretence" here: "parody" maybe?
BTW I think "elle" is "une problématique".
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4 Stunden Antwortsicherheit: |
| which threads through fiction and philosophy in the manner of a simulacrum
Erklärung:
The simulacrum is an important concept in Nietzsche, Foucault and Deleuze's work so I think you have to keep that. Could the 'elle' refer to 'leur réflexion parallèle'. Makes more sense to me that way.
'sur la mode' = along the lines of/according to the pattern of
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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-06-29 23:08:22 GMT)
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suggest looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacrum which explains various people's take on the simulacrum. Yes, I know its Wikipedia but in this case helpful.
| Helen Shiner
Vereinigtes Königreich
Spezialgebiet
Muttersprache: Englisch
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| Hinweise an den Beantworter der Frage
Fragesteller: Thanks, I thought you were right about the "elle", but then it occurred to me that Klossowski is the one who mixes philosophy, fiction and transgression. Looking up various bits on this author, I learn that he thought of simulacra as something created by a work of art.
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7 Stunden Antwortsicherheit: Zustimmung (Netto): +1 |
| according to the logic of the simulacrum
Erklärung:
It's not you Susan, it really is tricky, because the phrase "un prolongement de la littérature transgressive qui croise la fiction et la philosophie sur le mode du simulacre" in many ways could apply just as well to Klossowski's work as the "problématique" Foucault and Deleuze locate in it (and also their parallel "reflexion" on it).
After looking at this long and hard, I believe "elle" = Klossowski's work, but I believe the "elle est placé sous le signe de" refers to how Foucault & Deleuze's "reflexion" situates this work.
The sentence says, as I understand it:
Klossowski's work is situated/understood [placé sous le signe de] in Foucault and Deleuze's reflections as an "extension of the tradition of transgressive literature [eg. Sade, Lautreamont], which crosses [in the sense of interbreeds] fiction with philosophy according to the logic of the simulacrum."
The "simulacrum" is presented by Deleuze and Foucault as a whole system or mode of thought or being - which the quote that follows begins to sketch - and I'm sure this is what is referred to when the passage says "sur le mode du simulacre" - ie according to the manner or modus operandi of the simulacrum. It is the 'logic' of the simulacrum that "croise" literature and philosophy, just as it forms a "point of inversion" of the sacred and profane.
"Creates an intersection between" would also work for "croise" - the key is that a point is created where you have something that is neither one or the other, or rather, both. That's the key to Klossowski's "perverse logic" as Deleuze presents it (the key text here is Deleuze's appendix to the Logic of Sense, "Klossowski or bodies-language"; the key Foucauldian text on Klossowski is "The Prose of Acteon").
A lifetime ago I was going to do my thesis on the complicated relations between these three (& Blanchot)... but I suspect it became a bit too bloody complicated :)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2008-06-30 02:01:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Nb. it has to be "the" simulacrum, not "a", for these reasons.
| Melissa McMahon
Australien
Spezialgebiet
Muttersprache: Englisch
PRO-Punkte in Kategorie: 20
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| Hinweis von Fragesteller an den AntwortendenThank you soooo much Melissa. I can see you are right in all of this.
"Logic" for mode is such a good proposition (why couldn't I think of that?!) It is incredibly difficult sometimes trying to make out what is meant by these kind of "potted philosophy" passages unless you already understand the theories in question. And unfortunately I've got more of a passing acquaintance than an understanding!
Thanks again, thanks for your time, and thanks for being willing to share your knowledge. |
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