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Marketing without sharing space with low bidders and job posters
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:19
Member (2008)
Italian to English
No certifications Mar 10, 2020

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Not keen on certifications.


Nor am I. Maybe that's because I only became a translator after working bilingually, for 20+ years, as an architect. There is no certification anywhere that would attest to my experience and competence.


Jorge Payan
Helen Shiner
Magnus Rubensson
 
The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 22:19
Russian to English
+ ...
Not everyting... Mar 10, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

The Misha wrote:

.....may be borderline illegal in such places as the United States.


I understand everything is illegal in the United States.


... but price collusion and market fixing definitely are.

And remember, we still have our guns and those beautiful, gas-guzzling SUVs that keep Greta up at night. All those things are totally legal. Oh, and having more than one bathroom per residence is not frowned upon either:)


Wilsonn Perez Reyes
P.L.F. Persio
Bernhard Sulzer
 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:19
English to Arabic
+ ...
Few Words of Wisdom Mar 10, 2020

Paying a membership fee implies that support even more.


I can totally relate.

My ProZ paid-membership experience was laden with pro bono, "your most competitive rate", ridiculous budget, ridiculous deadline, and fake/deceitful job postings.

There once was a cheeky posting requesting most competitive rate to translate... 1 word! Yes, you read it right, 1 word.

I also came across an internet blog post of a ProZ user, a long while back, admitting to having posted dozens of multi-language job postings for the sole purpose of feeling out competition.

ProZ can, and should, play a role in straightening the market by: eliminating and forbidding expressions such as "your most competitive rate" from job postings; limiting the "pro bono" facility to esteemed, recognized not-for-profit organizations only, and for a limited frequency over a given time-period; rejecting postings of budgets and deadlines that are lower and shorter, respectively, than a certain threshold ($0.10/w & 2Kw/d are a very reasonable minimum); and enforcing a minimal fee per each and every job posting, so that fake/deceitful posters are weeded out once and for all.

Do I think the above suggestions will take place? NO.

And, that's because ProZ is, evidently, leaning more towards the stronger element in the formula, that is Capitalism, represented by job posters & companies.


A site where people are registered who have had some experience in the business, can provide references, have had some tertiary education (preferably, but not required) etc.


Even so, wannabes & hacks will still find their way in!

Lastly, I would like to confirm that if I'm to schmooze, I won't be schmoozing for a Translator job title; that is a lousy job to schmooze for, and a terrible waste of such a "valuable" effort as schmoozing!!!

And, may I add that even helpful, production-expediting technology comes at a price, e.g. internet plan, workstation hardware's initial purchase and subsequent maintenance and replacement, higher electricity bill, etc. And, we are paying that price, and it must be reflected in our rates.

For once in my life, I would like to go to a service provider, any service provider, and be able to say... "I'm taking your service for xyz amount of my choice", in the same manner translation customers say to us!!! Can it be done???


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 02:19
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Some misunderstandings here along with lots of agreement Mar 10, 2020

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
By "fees" above I meant fees charged by platforms or associations.

Oh right, I see . Everything has to be value for money, in the end, even if it's sometimes to quantify an exact level of ROI. I remember in the early days thinking that €50 was a small fortune to pay for software or anything else, but it was normally worth it. I'm happy to pay for ProZ.com because I get lots of work here and that's worth paying for, as well as for the benefits of the community side of things. I belong to an editors' association too, not for the jobs because I don't yet qualify to be listed, but for the information about the side of my business that I know less about, in terms of how others do the job. I'm not sure what your idea would offer potential members in return for fees. What would your members/colleagues/peers get, apart from being in a group of like-minded people?

I do share space here with people using the job board. And that's just a fact. It's something that doesn't work for me any longer because I feel it is detrimental to my own efforts here. It's as if you were trying to put up a professional business in a building with various businesses, but in the back room, accessible through the back door, there is something not so professional going on, being in direct competition with you. Actually, I have the feeling that this other business is placed much more prominently than my own.

How's this for a different analogy: Think of many of the world's famous squares. In the main square itself, street vendors often set up their stalls and sell cheap models of the local monument, T-shirts with the name of the place on, etc. The square is often lined with imposing buildings full of history, and it's there that the artisans, the designers, and the professionals of all types have their businesses. Which ones are most obvious when you glance around? Those stalls probably even seem to be the most lucrative, with crowds of tourists milling around to buy tat. Do you think a sculptor or an haute couture designer hidden away in the building behind should feel threatened by the stallholders and their wares?

I would like a platform for translators without job posters. A site where people are registered who have had some experience in the business, can provide references, have had some tertiary education (preferably, but not required) etc. As far as vetting is concerned, identities should be verified. Also, feedback from clients will be important.
Most importantly, I would make sure that there are clear statements about what these translators provide (quality service), what the job of a translator is (a highly sophisticated craft) and that quality translations are the only service provided.

Can't disagree with that, but I think I get most of it at ProZ.com. On the side of the site, there's the ID verification (which I'd like to see made compulsory for everyone here on both sides of the transaction), the WWA, the "P" tag (which is somewhat flawed, I admit)... But even more importantly, on my side there's my own profile and CV and the fact that I set a minimum rate so I never even get to see the worst offending jobs.

It should be made clear that professional services are provided at professional prices (a quoting system will be used where every translator is able to quote his/her prices). That does not mean unduly high prices. Just fair prices for what is provided.

You want to set up a "quoting system" ??? But I thought you were dead against this "lowest bid" mentality that you often link to the site. Not that it actually exists here, where every quoter provides a sealed bid, just as in most tenders.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:19
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Quotes by translators Mar 10, 2020

Sheila Wilson wrote:

You want to set up a "quoting system" ??? But I thought you were dead against this "lowest bid" mentality that you often link to the site. Not that it actually exists here, where every quoter provides a sealed bid, just as in most tenders.


I simply mean you are approached by a client and provide your quote (like now, when you are contacted directly). It should be understood that as a member of that new site, you will quote reasonable rates/prices. I am not against fair competition. Thanks for your input.


 
Yolande Hivart
Yolande Hivart
Austria
Local time: 03:19
Member (2016)
German to French
I don't mind low bidder Mar 10, 2020

I would take jobs that are for others low job poster if they passionate me. I will always be a lower bidder and a higer bidder to someone else.
If I consider about the official earning survey of translators' elite of my country, I am definitely am a low bidder. But on the other side I am not sure to compete on the same market and they may well higher up the ladder to ensure that you will only reach the standard of their clients after an elite schooling or a life long learning (so far I am
... See more
I would take jobs that are for others low job poster if they passionate me. I will always be a lower bidder and a higer bidder to someone else.
If I consider about the official earning survey of translators' elite of my country, I am definitely am a low bidder. But on the other side I am not sure to compete on the same market and they may well higher up the ladder to ensure that you will only reach the standard of their clients after an elite schooling or a life long learning (so far I am not allowed to put my name on their high paid provider list).

I think if market regulation is forbidden, what about the constructor's advised price of industry goods and custom when importing to insure that industrial goods from third countries do not harm the domestic market?

What we would like and they refuse for us (because it would make it more costly to them) already exists to some extend in other sectors in an inofficial way?

Have you never seen in one supermarket people going with list to compare the price with the competition or such marketing actions with "tell us if you find somewhere else cheaper and we will reimburse the difference".

This is really sad that for some immaterial service where there is no other intrinsic minimum value than your own pride we get told we are not to ask each other what would be the "recommanded price" for a good, at the sole discretion of a provider to ask more or less than it.

That said you cannot come to a place and tell other bidder "go away, so that clients only see me and pay more". There will be always a sharing space, unless you want to end up into a state regulated affair.

[Edited at 2020-03-10 15:22 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 02:19
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
You can (and should) take personal responsibility for managing your business Mar 10, 2020

Sadek_A wrote:
ProZ can, and should, play a role in straightening the market by: eliminating and forbidding expressions such as "your most competitive rate" from job postings; limiting the "pro bono" facility to esteemed, recognized not-for-profit organizations only, and for a limited frequency over a given time-period; rejecting postings of budgets and deadlines that are lower and shorter, respectively, than a certain threshold ($0.10/w & 2Kw/d are a very reasonable minimum); and enforcing a minimal fee per each and every job posting, so that fake/deceitful posters are weeded out once and for all.

Do I think the above suggestions will take place? NO.

Do I think any of the above suggestions are remotely feasible in a global marketplace? NO.

But I do know that:
(a) I only accept pro bono jobs from NFP organisations, and then only when I have spare capacity.
(b) My minimum rate is €36 -- I'll translate one word for that if the client wishes, and sometimes they do. If they expect to pay €0.12 for it, it's a no-deal.
(c) No minimum period is reasonable if you're fully booked, whereas to "get stuck in and deliver by 3 a.m." might be great for someone with a hole in their schedule.
(d) To some extent, rates will inevitably link with cost of living. If I have to translate 10 words @ €0.10 each to pay for a loaf of bread, why should ProZ.com insist that a translator in India quote the same if it can feed their family for a day? (Note: I'm clueless about the cost of living there ).

For once in my life, I would like to go to a service provider, any service provider, and be able to say... "I'm taking your service for xyz amount of my choice", in the same manner translation customers say to us!!! Can it be done???

No, they don't say that; they say what they WANT. It's incredibly easy to say NO.


Christine Andersen
 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 10:19
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
You don't hire people often, do you? Mar 10, 2020

For once in my life, I would like to go to a service provider, any service provider, and be able to say... "I'm taking your service for xyz amount of my choice", in the same manner translation customers say to us!!! Can it be done???

I tell my orchestra players that I pay $200 HKD per hour. Those who are willing to play for that rate will play for me, and those who are unwilling will not.


Dan Lucas
Sheila Wilson
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:19
English to Arabic
+ ...
Confused, aren't you? Mar 10, 2020

Lincoln Hui wrote:

For once in my life, I would like to go to a service provider, any service provider, and be able to say... "I'm taking your service for xyz amount of my choice", in the same manner translation customers say to us!!! Can it be done???

I tell my orchestra players that I pay $200 HKD per hour. Those who are willing to play for that rate will play for me, and those who are unwilling will not.


Lincoln, you should revisit my statement.

I didn't say "I would like to take your service," no, I said "I'm taking your service."

That's exactly the attitude of the feeling-entitled customer which should be eliminated, and which you kindly admitted to doing it so graciously and proudly!

Do you, by any chance, define the cell service fee for your operator, like you did for your orchestra players? Can you even dare try? How would the operator answer to you?


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:19
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Back Mar 10, 2020

These unrelated private ping-pongs between particular users are neither helpful nor interesting. They would be more appropriate on Twitter.

Can we get back to the topic please? It was intended to be a discussion about professionalism and quality.

[Edited at 2020-03-10 16:30 GMT]


Jorge Payan
Thayenga
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:19
English to Arabic
+ ...
Nice Try Mar 10, 2020

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Do I think any of the above suggestions are remotely feasible in a global marketplace? NO.


When did I ever not take personal responsibility for managing my business? Were you the one managing it for me so far? Just curious!

Do I think that your rhetorical questions missed their target by miles? YES.

The global marketplace wasn't my concern when I made those suggestions; they were meant for ProZ, and for ProZ only.

In addressing your points:

(a) that's the smartest thing to do.
(b) good luck with that.
(c) the minimum period is NOT meant to cater for just you; if you're booked you're booked, and project moves to next available, willing translator.
(d) no, rates will link with the service itself, regardless of where you're living. An Indian, just like you, has the right to proper savings to resort to should they decide at any point to relocate to, say, a higher-cost country. And, only through proper service payment, will they maintain proper savings to lean on.
But, apparently, you think that an Indian should only get paid the bare minimum to survive by, with no horizon whatsoever for any advancement!


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:19
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Q & A Mar 10, 2020

Am I asking myself questions and then answering them? You bet I am.

 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:19
English to Arabic
+ ...
Gladly! Mar 10, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

These unrelated private ping-pongs between particular users are neither helpful nor interesting. They would be more appropriate on Twitter.

Can we get back to the topic please? It was intended to be a discussion about professionalism and quality.

[Edited at 2020-03-10 16:30 GMT]



My first input was detailed, spot-on regarding the topic, and I was keen on not hurting anyone's feelings in the process. But, apparently, you can no longer express ideas without someone taking it personal and trying to get back at you.


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:19
English to Arabic
+ ...
:) Mar 10, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

Am I asking myself questions and then answering them? You bet I am.



It's the best kind of question, the one with the answer coming from within.


 
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Marketing without sharing space with low bidders and job posters







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