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Let out on hire
Adressing high ranking ladies and gentlemen in a letter (UK English)

Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

Adressing high ranking lady in a letter, together with men (UK English)

English answer:

Dear Members of the Selection Committee

Added to glossary by Werner Walther
Sep 23, 2010 15:25
13 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term

Adressing high ranking lady in a letter, together with men (UK English)

English Art/Literary General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
I have got to write a letter to a selection committee. The Dean of the Faculty is a lady, Professor with an earned doctorate and with broad international reputation in both her discipline and in politics of sustainable development as well. In Germany, we can write now Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren. Is the correct formula in UK English Ladies and Gentlemen? Which is the solution, both up to date and respectful and correct. Thank you.
Responses
4 +6 Dear Members of the Selection Committee
5 +2 Dear Sirs and Madam
4 -5 Marm,..

Discussion

Werner Walther (asker) Sep 26, 2010:
@Alexandra This was my question: I have got to write a letter (of application) to a selection committee. And I want this committee make their final decision in favour of me, me among 8 or 10 excellent candidates competing for this appointment. Modern, but correct; self-confident but respectful, etc., etc. Thank you for your help, but I have made my selection now.
Werner Walther (asker) Sep 26, 2010:
Do you agree, that ... ... certain contributions are very far away from my question and from my expectations. I had a problem to solve, and got help, both nice and professional. And that's it, not less, and not more. Have a nice weekend, Marm Alexandra.
Alexandra Taggart Sep 25, 2010:
Dear Werner, You see, I knew this word.Please, pay you attention to the usage of "marm" here.
http://www.wordnik.com/words/marm
Richard McDorman Sep 24, 2010:
Points I agree with B D Finch. You should not select my answer just because it included research results. You should only select it if it was the most helpful overall. On the other hand, if B D Finch's answer was the most helpful for you, then you should select it and award KudoZ points accordingly.
B D Finch Sep 24, 2010:
Points One generally selects the answer that gave the most useful solution to the question and that can be entered into the glossary.
Werner Walther (asker) Sep 24, 2010:
@Richard & Barbara It's terribly difficult to decide to whom should I give the points. Richard did so excellent research, but Barbara reminded me of the type of solution I very often used, and indeed my writing yesterday was very close to this type of writing. Unfortunately, we cannot split between two. So would you agree with the points given to Richard for the research work, and some bright virtual autumn flowers sent to Barbara, with many thanks for the good wishes as well? It was a very nice experience here, as I am not very often on the English-only pages.
Werner Walther (asker) Sep 24, 2010:
@Alexandra - comments on marm Thank you for trying to give me some help. However, I remembered this word from my school days. And then I found this in an internet dictionary: A british word meaning an old school teacher. somewhat old and stingy. fond of floral print granny panties. Example: Dude, that old school marm totally came onto me. But I said "No thanks MARM," and left it at that. Forgive me, but I won't use the expression.
B D Finch Sep 23, 2010:
Dean Dean, is invariable just as Professor is. You wouldn't call a woman Professoress, or Doctoress, so no problem with addressing her as Dean. It has two advantages, a) it is short and you don't want to take up too much room with the form of address; b) it relates to her position and is not too personal. Another example is that over the past 20 years, serious women actors have tended to prefer to be called "actor", not "actress", as "actress" has connotations that are considered less professionally rigorous.

I hope it all goes well and sure you looked suitably elegant without a tie. Ties do tend to indicate business persons and bankers rather than the self-image your young colleagues are probably concerned to project.
Werner Walther (asker) Sep 23, 2010:
@B D Finch You gave an excellent idea to single her out, but .... - again the same problem. We've got the prince and the princess, the heir and the heiress, the baron and the baroness, but the Dean and the Dean-ess (?!). Yes, that gives me an idea: I could simply write: Dear Professor + name, and then continue. I think, times have changed, and it's also the first time, that I went very elegant, but without a tie! And I survived! For our young academics and their students a tie has the same meaning as those wigs in Old Bailey.
Richard McDorman Sep 23, 2010:
On the use of "Dear Sirs:" You are definitely right that unless you know *for sure* that there are no women being addressed, you should avoid "Dear Sirs:"
Werner Walther (asker) Sep 23, 2010:
@Richard It was just that this lady ist such a personality and so outstanding in her achievements, so I thought Dear Sirs would be ABSOLUTELY INADEQUATE. That's why I asked these questions. Thanks again to all of you!
Werner Walther (asker) Sep 23, 2010:
@Sheila Thank you, Sheila. In such selection commitees, they are not all professors (I just had one on Sept 9th), there are also the staff of the Personnal Department or nowadays more often HR Human Ressources, or Recruitment Group, etc. And, secondly, I only know, that such committee exists, but I don't know the members' names.
Richard McDorman Sep 23, 2010:
Hi, Werner. If there is more than one woman on the committee, then you should use "Dear Sirs and Madams:". I would like to point out for the record that I did not just assume that there was only one woman, as you indicated that in your preface to the question.
Sheila Wilson Sep 23, 2010:
Are they all professors? If so, you could write "Dear Professors" - it's unisex. Alternatively, if you know their names (and there aren't too many), you can list them all. Ladies first or alphabetically are both possible.
Werner Walther (asker) Sep 23, 2010:
@Richard Thinking over it, I asked the wrong question. It is true, that Prof XY is Dean, but she is surrounded by others, and I am convinced, there are more women as well. So we have high ranking women, high ranking men, and, as prima (not primus) inter pares the Dean as a lady. So I take the opportunity asking another question - but that should be another question following th ProZ rules - thank you in advance, I'll be bak in a minute with this modified question.
Richard McDorman Sep 23, 2010:
Yes. This is a standard formula in English. Try Googling "Dear Sirs and Madam" and then compare the results to "Dear Madam and Sirs." The use of formulaic language like this does not imply any higher regard for the men than the woman. It is just part of the historical linguistic "baggage," if you will, of the language that has persisted to the present day.
Werner Walther (asker) Sep 23, 2010:
@Richard Sirs first, and then Madam? In German we are committed to ladies first, like Sehr geehrte Damen (ladies) und Herren (gentlemen)? No solution with ladies first, after all these struggles of the different female movements? Thank you!

Responses

+6
22 mins
Selected

Dear Members of the Selection Committee

A way out of the dilemma that avoids the use of "Madams".

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Note added at 45 mins (2010-09-23 16:10:34 GMT)
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Mesdames is certainly better than Madams, but I wonder whether it seems a bit arch?

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-09-23 16:59:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If you wanted to single her out, you could even write:
"Dear Dean/Chair and Members of the Selection Committee".
Note from asker:
Thank you - excellent idea - that's the way I did it very often. Instead of Madams I would be prepared to use the French form Mesdames, why not, looks nice and they understand it.
Peer comment(s):
agree cmwilliams (X)
14 mins
Thanks cmw
agree Maja Basara
17 mins
Thanks Maja
agree Noni Gilbert Riley : Completely satisfactory solution! Elegant too.
32 mins
Thanks Noni
agree Anna Herbst : Unless you have been asked to address the letter to the chair of the selection committee, this is it.
14 hrs
Thanks Anna
agree Bernhard Sulzer : maybe also Dear Dr. Y/Dear Professor Y, Dear Members of the Selection committee to show proper reverence. Or address all committee members as you suggested (sounds very professional).
1 day 8 hrs
Thanks Bernhard
agree Alexandra Taggart : It's where my mistake started: Professor is a teacher.
2 days 9 hrs
Thanks Alexandra, and for making me a "Dr."! Keep "Marm" in reserve for the next Buck House garden party, which I am sure you will one day be invited to. ;-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much. I very often used this very similar. Also in English, nobody is wrong writing down, what honest feelings and a sincere heart are saying."
-5
4 hrs

Marm,..

.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2010-09-23 19:51:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://thesaurus.com/browse/marm

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Note added at 4 hrs (2010-09-23 19:53:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dear marm and sirs, ...
Note from asker:
I don't agree with Marm. O.K., might be alright in literature, but not in my case. Thank you very much, Alexandra, and have a good time.
Alexandra, I have read through the extended Wordnik citations, and they showed, that Marm would be absolutely wrong to my context. My professor and Dean is not the old school Marm or a Babuschka, she is e Professor in Economics and used to be a bank manager, self confident, multilingual, IT literate - just the opposite of a Marm. Have a nice day!
Peer comment(s):
disagree Arabic & More : I understand that you are thinking of marm as a way of saying "madam" and not "schoolmarm," but most native speakers of U.S. English would immediately think of the latter. It has bad connotations and should not be used in this context.
2 hrs
disagree cmwilliams (X) : This would not be used in this context in the UK.
11 hrs
Said who?
disagree B D Finch : Used verbally, not in writing, for a servant addressing their mistress (till c. 1940s) and when addressing royalty if you have already used their title in the same conversation.//Anybody calling me that is being cheeky and gets a slap round the face!
12 hrs
"Marm" is a normal name to adress Her Majesty, but you can call "marm" any lady whom you're going to respect as she was Queen. http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=514197
disagree Richard McDorman : Hi, Alexandra. Based on your reply to B D Finch and the resource you provided her, I believe that you may be confusing "marm" and "ma'am," which are nearly homophonous in Standard British English.
1 day 5 hrs
"Marm" - is a synonym for "OurDear Dame". That which I inserted for the attention of Dr Finch - was for the sake of things,which she may fancy professionally.
disagree Tony M : Absolutely not! No native EN speaker would ever write this in such a context, and it would appear quaint and ridiculous!
2 days 20 hrs
Yes, "in such a context", simply because Professors and banks do not mix together in Britain!
Something went wrong...
+2
2 mins

Dear Sirs and Madam

To address one woman and several men, I would go with the formulaic "Dear Sirs and Madam:"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 mins (2010-09-23 15:28:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here is an example:

Dear Sirs and Madam:

Dr. Reibel has requested that I submit my resignation as Chief and Medical Director of the Smithers Addiction Treatment and Research Center and as Head of the Division of Substance Abuse Services of the Department of Psychiatry, St. Luke's/Roosevelt Hospital Center, a position I have held successfully for the past two years ...

http://www.doctordeluca.com/Documents/ResignationLetter1.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 mins (2010-09-23 15:29:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here is a useful reference advocating the "Dear Sirs(s) and Madam(s)" formula:

http://www.ego4u.com/en/cram-up/writing/business-letter/salu...

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Note added at 5 mins (2010-09-23 15:30:47 GMT)
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Dear Sirs and Madam:

I was shocked and deeply disappointed to learn that your nation has colluded with Japan to block whale sanctuaries and overturn the ban on commercial whaling ...

http://www.cdnn.info/act-now/boycott_palau/boycott_palau.htm...



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Note added at 8 mins (2010-09-23 15:33:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here is an excerpt from a letter addressing certain members of the United States Congress, which included several men and one woman:

Dear Sirs and Madam:

We are writing to you today regarding your ongoing efforts to shed light on the secret contract between the Smithsonian Institution and Showtime to create a joint venture with some exclusive rights over access to the Smithsonian archives and staff ...

http://public.resource.org/smithsonian_congress.html

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Note added at 2 days9 hrs (2010-09-26 00:46:05 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I'm glad I could help, even if only a little bit. I hope everything goes smashingly well with your application! :)
Note from asker:
Thank you very much, Richard. You presented excellent research, and in spite of not using this formula this time, I learnt a lot. Thank you, and have a good time.
Peer comment(s):
agree BrigitteHilgner : I think this is commonly used (and suitable).
16 mins
Thank you.
neutral B D Finch : This is OK only if there is just one woman on the committee. Why assume that? Also, one of your refs. gave some quite sexist advice on the use of Ms. The feminist view is that it should replace both Mrs. and Miss, unless the addressee objects.
18 mins
Hi, B D. I did not assume that there was only one woman on the committee; the asker told us that in his preface to the question: "Adressing high ranking lady in a letter, together with men."
agree Jack Doughty
19 mins
Thanks, Jack.
neutral Alexandra Taggart : It is very unlikely she would be called "madam".
4 hrs
I agree that she would not be addressed as such in conversation, but this is a standard and traditionally accepted formula to open formal letters. Apparently, though, some (but not all) think that it has become passée.
neutral Bernhard Sulzer : if the lady is the highest-ranking committee member, or even if that is not the case, I would really avoid "and Madam" - it makes her sound like an afterthought; I sometimes use Dear Sir, Dear Madam, but I think it is not an elegant solution here. / :)
1 day 8 hrs
Thank you, Bernhard. It does appear that many believe that the "Dear Sir or Madam" formula has passed its expiration date, so to speak.
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