| صفحات الموضوع: < [1 2 3] > | What if the asker chooses the obviously wrong answer? ناشر الموضوع: LoyalTrans
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| Contact the moderator, who can edit the glossary | Nov 23, 2007 |
It may be possible to add a comment like 'in this particular context' to a glossary entry, to indicate that it is an unusual case.
I myself have just given points to a colleague for an answer, confirmed by a proof reader and the client, that certainly was not the normal dictionary meaning of the source expression. Another answerer had given the usual meaning, but it simply did not fit in my context. And in this case, the word was used as a technical term, quite logically, but in an ... See more It may be possible to add a comment like 'in this particular context' to a glossary entry, to indicate that it is an unusual case.
I myself have just given points to a colleague for an answer, confirmed by a proof reader and the client, that certainly was not the normal dictionary meaning of the source expression. Another answerer had given the usual meaning, but it simply did not fit in my context. And in this case, the word was used as a technical term, quite logically, but in an unusual sense. (It has a whole range of meanings in the language generally, so it was tricky.)
This sort of thing comes up now and then in KudoZ, because where the dictionary definitions fit, you don't need KudoZ.
Admittedly, accepted answers are sometimes just plain wrong - and there is nothing you can do about the points.
But if you add notes or disagrees with clear explanations (keeping strictly to the language question and avoiding personal comments) then you will not be sanctioned.
Moderators can edit the glossary to add warnings about the worst mistakes, but we are not experts in all fields and do not have time to check everything. So please let us know if we miss anything!
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| | | | Henry Hinds 
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Local time: 08:54
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احياء لذكرى | E-Mail to Asker | Nov 23, 2007 |
On a few occasions I have sent an e-mail to the asker telling them the answer was obviously wrong and providing the correct one. I do this hoping they have not yet sent out the translation and can correct it.
People have thanked me for it. I don't care about the points, I just want to try to save their reputation. Of course if their work is also not up to snuff otherwise, one correction will not save it.
The Glossary already has plenty of errors in it. The best thing fo... See more On a few occasions I have sent an e-mail to the asker telling them the answer was obviously wrong and providing the correct one. I do this hoping they have not yet sent out the translation and can correct it.
People have thanked me for it. I don't care about the points, I just want to try to save their reputation. Of course if their work is also not up to snuff otherwise, one correction will not save it.
The Glossary already has plenty of errors in it. The best thing for any asker to do is to research all possibilities carefully before accepting them. I do not know how that problem can be easily solved if at all. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nikki Graham
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Local time: 15:54
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| Clarification concerning rule 3.7, please | Nov 23, 2007 |
Enrique wrote: As posted above by Writeaway, comments or insinuations concerning this decision (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user) are forbidden by rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7 You can disagree with any given answer by means of the Peer grading system if you provide a linguistic reason for your disagreement. The asker receives a notification when any answer provided to his/her question receives a disagree.
First, thanks for confirming that askers receive notification of disagrees (and thanks Francis for your reticence in this instance, much appreciated ).
Second, when it says "Comments or insinuations... are strictly prohibited (whether posted publicy... or made to another site user)", I am assuming this means in public and not in private?
| | | | wonita (X)
الصين
Local time: 10:54
| A matter of pride | Nov 23, 2007 |
Robert Cai wrote:
Let's face it, there are some entry-level translators who both ask and answer and occassionally the inexperienced asker chooses the wrong answer from the similarly inexperienced answerer. I should say this is really frustrating after I have been in this situation for a couple of times (I am sure that my answer is right). So how do you handle this? Just shrug and leave?
It bothers only the one who has provieded the "correct" answer. Should we view it as a matter of self-pride rather than academic incorrectness?
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| Long-term posting use | Nov 23, 2007 |
Like Nikki and others, I am likely to add a neutral/disagree comment if I think the information filed in an answer might mislead a later reader. It may be too late to stop a mistake going through on one translation, but we can at least try to stop the error being perpetuated.
This is because I, at least, when looking up a term on Proz, tend to read through any debate there has been and even follow links proposed in support of an answer.
In part this is because I don't ... See more Like Nikki and others, I am likely to add a neutral/disagree comment if I think the information filed in an answer might mislead a later reader. It may be too late to stop a mistake going through on one translation, but we can at least try to stop the error being perpetuated.
This is because I, at least, when looking up a term on Proz, tend to read through any debate there has been and even follow links proposed in support of an answer.
In part this is because I don't always find glossary entries that illuminating. I prefer the back-up of links and longer explanations.
I also think we need to tidy up glossary formatting (glad to hear the Italians are onto it!), and I know that the Proz staff have this in mind, so that the glossaries are more useful, even if it is only a matter of making them easier to search through.
Of course, it it's just a matter of disagreeing with someone's taste in words, well, tough - there are worse things we have to learn to live with! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | later comments on entries are possible | Nov 23, 2007 |
It is possible to contribute to glossary entries by adding a comment later on. You can do so by clicking the ”Contribute to this entry” field located to the right of the entry- as happened recently in my sub community - and add further references to support your view.
See for instance:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2243857
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| | | | Albert Stufkens
هولندا
Local time: 16:54
عضو (2008)
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| Inherent contradiction | Nov 28, 2007 |
I do share your frustration. But I am also frustrated by the bizarre mechanism of the Kudoz system.
The underlying purpose of the Kudoz system is twofold and mutual: to advance the knowledge of peers and at the same time advancing your own ranking thereby.
The curious contradiction inherent in the system is that progress in ranking depends on those who express their lack of knowledge. Worse, on those who often prove that they do not even recognize the right answer.
Too often I... See more I do share your frustration. But I am also frustrated by the bizarre mechanism of the Kudoz system.
The underlying purpose of the Kudoz system is twofold and mutual: to advance the knowledge of peers and at the same time advancing your own ranking thereby.
The curious contradiction inherent in the system is that progress in ranking depends on those who express their lack of knowledge. Worse, on those who often prove that they do not even recognize the right answer.
Too often I meet colleagues in the Kudoz scene who display tunnel vision in that they rigidly continue thinking in the wrong direction, which direction is determined by a certain source term. At all costs such a term is forced into the target translation resulting in an improbable phrase. It is as if many consider themselves as a human machine translating tool. To my utmost frustration such answers are too often recognized as the right answer by the Asker who has the same tunnel vision. I go one step further: answers of this type are often confirmed by a number of "agrees" from translators of the same type. Then the uncertain Asker just counts the number of stupid "agrees" and feels reassured and picks his 'right' answer.
This phenomenon is a serious obstacle to genuinely skilled and intelligent translators who wish and merit advancement in ranking.
What do I mean by intelligence? If an answer is selected which violates the logic in a given context then the Asker only shows his/her stupidity or unsuitability for a particular field.
Robert Cai wrote:
Let's face it, there are some entry-level translators who both ask and answer and occassionally the inexperienced asker chooses the wrong answer from the similarly inexperienced answerer. I should say this is really frustrating after I have been in this situation for a couple of times (I am sure that my answer is right). So how do you handle this? Just shrug and leave? ▲ Collapse
| | | | LoyalTrans
Local time: 22:54
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بادئ الموضوع
Bin Tiede wrote:
It bothers only the one who has provieded the "correct" answer. Should we view it as a matter of self-pride rather than academic incorrectness?
I am afraid that, for me at least, it is more of a matter of hurt pride.
I really don't care if the asker chose the wrong one, he/she will sooner or later learn the lesson in the hard way. Just a bit humiliating that some stupid answer goes beyond mine (and I am talking about no-brainer rather than situations where there can be multiple options which are equally right).
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LoyalTrans
Local time: 22:54
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بادئ الموضوع | The situation might not be that hopeless | Nov 28, 2007 |
Albert Stufkens wrote:
I do share your frustration. But I am also frustrated by the bizarre mechanism of the Kudoz system.
The underlying purpose of the Kudoz system is twofold and mutual: to advance the knowledge of peers and at the same time advancing your own ranking thereby.
The curious contradiction inherent in the system is that progress in ranking depends on those who express their lack of knowledge. Worse, on those who often prove that they do not even recognize the right answer.
Too often I meet colleagues in the Kudoz scene who display tunnel vision in that they rigidly continue thinking in the wrong direction, which direction is determined by a certain source term. At all costs such a term is forced into the target translation resulting in an improbable phrase. It is as if many consider themselves as a human machine translating tool. To my utmost frustration such answers are too often recognized as the right answer by the Asker who has the same tunnel vision. I go one step further: answers of this type are often confirmed by a number of "agrees" from translators of the same type. Then the uncertain Asker just counts the number of stupid "agrees" and feels reassured and picks his 'right' answer.
This phenomenon is a serious obstacle to genuinely skilled and intelligent translators who wish and merit advancement in ranking.
What do I mean by intelligence? If an answer is selected which violates the logic in a given context then the Asker only shows his/her stupidity or unsuitability for a particular field.
My general feeling about Kudoz is that it is still a good thing to filter out skilled/knowledgeable translators (and who are also keen on answering questions). Not sure what other language pairs are like, but most English-Chinese pair translators are fair when agreeing on Kudoz answers. It is just in exceptional cases that a totally inexperienced "translator" (hope he can continue with his career) went blindly for an obviously wrong answer...
| | | | Albert Stufkens
هولندا
Local time: 16:54
عضو (2008)
هولندي إلى أنجليزي
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| Lucky language pair | Nov 28, 2007 |
You are either a diplomat or just lucky with your language pair.
Robert Cai wrote:
[ It is just in exceptional cases that a totally inexperienced "translator" (hope he can continue with his career) went blindly for an obviously wrong answer...
| | | | Irene N
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Local time: 09:54
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| Aren't we eating the ruff fish from the wrong end? | Nov 28, 2007 |
A minor portion of the 'wrong answer problem' can be described by paraphrasing O'Henry:
"One poor coal-digger (have you ever heard of a rich coal-digger?"
"One right translator (have you ever heard of a wrong translator?"
As for the major part, someone who does not know the answer in the first place gets to choose, to award, to enlarge the glossary and to get additional points for the latter. Does this sound logical to anyone?
It is extremely ... See more A minor portion of the 'wrong answer problem' can be described by paraphrasing O'Henry:
"One poor coal-digger (have you ever heard of a rich coal-digger?"
"One right translator (have you ever heard of a wrong translator?"
As for the major part, someone who does not know the answer in the first place gets to choose, to award, to enlarge the glossary and to get additional points for the latter. Does this sound logical to anyone?
It is extremely hard to choose from something you don't have a clue about. On 2 or 3 occasions I noted in the Asker Note that points will be rewarded based on my editor's choice because I am TOTALLY unqualified to make my own. I don't even touch KOG when I am in the Asker capacity. Oh, well, I don't touch it at all... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nikki Graham
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Local time: 15:54
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| On the difficulties of choosing correct answers | Nov 29, 2007 |
IreneN wrote:
It is extremely hard to choose from something you don't have a clue about. On 2 or 3 occasions I noted in the Asker Note that points will be rewarded based on my editor's choice because I am TOTALLY unqualified to make my own. I don't even touch KOG when I am in the Asker capacity. Oh, well, I don't touch it at all...
An intelligent person, who is not totally out of their depth, should be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff and work out (with their own further research) which of the answers (if indeed any) have hit the nail on the head. If askers are so totally clueless that they cannot even recognise the correct answer when it is set before them on a plate, then they really shouldn't be doing the job in the first place.
P.S. The above is a general comment and not intended personally
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Irene N
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Local time: 09:54
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| Nikki, nothing personal:-) | Nov 29, 2007 |
When I hit a chemist resume with the title of h/h dissertation in the midst of a bid proposal, the remainder of which I can do in my sleep, or a specific math model name in the table or on the chart that appears out of nowhere with no direct dependency to the rest of the job subject (i.e. simple mentioning without any before and after explanations) and presents a pretty strong deviation from the remainder of the text in the document otherwise fully understandable to me, I would not mind to wait ... See more When I hit a chemist resume with the title of h/h dissertation in the midst of a bid proposal, the remainder of which I can do in my sleep, or a specific math model name in the table or on the chart that appears out of nowhere with no direct dependency to the rest of the job subject (i.e. simple mentioning without any before and after explanations) and presents a pretty strong deviation from the remainder of the text in the document otherwise fully understandable to me, I would not mind to wait for a second opinion:-). And I certainly would not decline the entire job because of a couple of bumps like that.
In other words, when an intelligent person sees that h/h is facing some term from the area h/h last saw in the 10th grade and barely made a C in it, h/h should not be making any intelligent decisions in that area:-D
[Edited at 2007-11-29 16:35] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nikki Graham
المملكة المتحدة
Local time: 15:54
إسباني إلى أنجليزي
IreneN wrote:
In other words, when an intelligent person sees that h/h is facing some term from the area h/h last saw in the 10th grade and barely made a C in it, h/h should not be making any intelligent decisions in that area:-D
[Edited at 2007-11-29 16:35]
But people like you are few and far between....
| | | | | There is always something to learn | Dec 12, 2007 |
Robert Cai wrote:
I really don't care if the asker chose the wrong one, he/she will sooner or later learn the lesson in the hard way. Just a bit humiliating that some stupid answer goes beyond mine (and I am talking about no-brainer rather than situations where there can be multiple options which are equally right).
Hi Robert, my first reaction is exactly as you describe.
But a second tough is: I am right, I know, however another answer has been chosen.
The asker probably is stupid/inexpert, but am I sure that my answer was clear enough, convincing enough even for non-expert people?
The art of communicating is a difficult one, when I am sure about a point I realize that I tend to be authoritative, that may work in a person-to-person conversation, but is very poor in writing.
So, as I state in title, there is always a lesson to learn, and something to improve on my side.
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