| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Do you use pirated software? Initiator des Themas: Emma Goldsmith
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| Before no, now yes | Jun 27, 2014 |
Shamelessly, i must admit that as a young translator, Trados aside, the rest was completely pirated. The reasons are obvious, setting up a full platform with original software would have meant investing a lot of money i didn't want to risk for a job that hadn't picked up yet.
Now i pay for everything i buy but avoid anything with "yearly" subscriptions if i can avoid. I feel very uneasy about using tools like Office paying a yearly fee. At the same time i find some software very ove... See more Shamelessly, i must admit that as a young translator, Trados aside, the rest was completely pirated. The reasons are obvious, setting up a full platform with original software would have meant investing a lot of money i didn't want to risk for a job that hadn't picked up yet.
Now i pay for everything i buy but avoid anything with "yearly" subscriptions if i can avoid. I feel very uneasy about using tools like Office paying a yearly fee. At the same time i find some software very overpriced. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Depends. There are legitimate uses outside of those made explicit | Jun 27, 2014 |
Not if I'm using it to make money or if its use is primarily for the purpose of significant personal enjoyment. Only for figuring out how to make money through legitimate use of it.
If the idea from day 1 is to use it to maybe make money, and you already know you will need to use a specific software for the purpose, then same deal, imo.
Strong companies with strong products have much to benefit by allowing potential new clients to explore their software, and sometime p... See more Not if I'm using it to make money or if its use is primarily for the purpose of significant personal enjoyment. Only for figuring out how to make money through legitimate use of it.
If the idea from day 1 is to use it to maybe make money, and you already know you will need to use a specific software for the purpose, then same deal, imo.
Strong companies with strong products have much to benefit by allowing potential new clients to explore their software, and sometime pirated use is a good alternative.
At the end of the day, I don't think that anyone who is making real money on the back of some software is going to want to use the pirated version. For example, many students use pirated Adobe products while in school and learning. But once you're billing clients $5000 for the last job you did, the few hundred dollars or grand or two of legal and legitimate access is worth it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X) 
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 12:24
Portugiesisch > Englisch
+ ...
Michael Beijer wrote:
Now I need SDL Studio, 4 versions of memoQ, Wordfast (Pro and Classic), and a few other ones just to be safe.
I'm curious why you and others "need" so many tools. I have one and have never needed any other.
Anyway, to answer the OP's question: No. Theft is theft is theft. Two wrongs don't make a right and all the other clichés in the book. Sorry to take the moral high ground on this particular maze but I fail to see a justification for it. If you can't afford it, then fortunately there are several open source alternatives, use them and if you're happy with them and can afford to do so then make a contribution.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Niederlande
Local time: 13:24
Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Afrikaans
+ ...
| Theft is theft is not theft | Jun 28, 2014 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL MITI wrote:
No. Theft is theft is theft.
No, that is not entirely correct. A variety of dissimilar activities are all classified as "theft".
You get theft which has no impact on the victim and theft that does, you get theft that deprives the victim of what you're stealing and theft that doesn't, you get theft which requires a deliberate decision and theft that only becomes theft due to your inaction. You get theft which helps combat your own povery and theft that simply makes your life easier. Etc.
The more specialised the software and the smaller the company that makes it, the more likely software piracy is going to hurt them. Both of these things (specialised product, small developer) apply to most CAT tools. It does not apply to software like Microsoft Word or Adobe Illustrator. If moral wrongness is a sliding scale, then it is morally more wrong to pirate CAT tools.
Two wrongs don't make a right...
I never really thought about this platitude until you mentioned it in this conversation, and now that I think about it, I can think of many instances of two wrongs making a right, where it would have made it a wrong if one of the wrongs was a right. But I suppose it depends on whether the inital wrong is really a wrong.
Some might say "it is wrong for Microsoft to be such a big company" but that is not really wrong, but even if it was wrong, you wouldn't succeed in making it "right" by stealing their software. Some might say "it is wrong for poorer translators to be excluded from the rich market", and depending on your value system you may even agree with that, and if so, stealing Microsoft's software might actually help make right that wrong.
Therefore, I can at least understand the logic of those who choose to use pirated software because of limited means.
If you can't afford it, then fortunately there are several open source alternatives...
While there certainly are many options for people who are dying to do the right thing, these alternatives are often rather limited in their usefulness.
Still, it is perfectly possible for people to scrape together a living using free tools only. In fact, you don't even need a computer to make a living as a translator, if you work really hard, and isn't hard work the ultimate moral high ground?
[Edited at 2014-06-28 09:25 GMT]
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Frankie JB
Frankreich
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
Thank you for your post - a good read - and for your discernment Samuel
Earlier in the thread another poster (Dan) equated stealing a software copy with stealing food in a restaurant, I felt the need to bring some discernment but time didn't permit...
Hardly anything to add to your argumentation, a good job. I'll just say that in my view, on the moral spectrum of theft, at one end there's stealing the bi... See more Thank you for your post - a good read - and for your discernment Samuel
Earlier in the thread another poster (Dan) equated stealing a software copy with stealing food in a restaurant, I felt the need to bring some discernment but time didn't permit...
Hardly anything to add to your argumentation, a good job. I'll just say that in my view, on the moral spectrum of theft, at one end there's stealing the bike of a poor guy who can't afford better and needs it badly for commuting, and then reselling it for profit, and at the other end (or close to), there's, precisely, stealing a software copy (especially in the circumstances you detailled, where harm is limited). It certainly doesn't mean it's acceptable, but the moral wrongness is probably greatly inferior.
2 extra comments:
- I goes (almost) without saying that stealing a company rather than an individual is not among extenuating circumstances, as obviously companies are made up of individuals.
- I don't know what's the name of the concept (if it's been given one), but I seem to know that there are cases where the damage caused by piracy is actually NIL. One case, I think, is when the people using the pirated software can't afford it (I mean actually don't have the money and can't expect to have it before long). Example: some Pakistani web designer stealing Adobe software: the damage is not the loss of profit of the software cost for Adobe because the Pakistani would never buy it in any case. Another case is when people consuming pirated products just wouldn't if they had to pay, i.e. actually don't have a strong interest for them (this goes mainly for nonphysical products which can be consumed). Example: people downloading movies, and this is why Hollywood claiming that the loss of profit due to film piracy amounting to XXXXXXX is sheer fallacy... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Frankie JB
Frankreich
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
| Two wrongs don't make a right... | Jun 28, 2014 |
A quick note about Lisa's commonplace: that's true in theory but sometimes in practice two wrongs are better than one! A good example I can think of right now is in basketball. Sometimes refs make mistakes. Often they know it, they feel it, for one reason or another. When that happens, for example when they call an offensive foul that's by all accounts unfair, what they'll do is that they'll whistle a dubious foul on the other team, often right away, and often actually an offensive foul too, so ... See more A quick note about Lisa's commonplace: that's true in theory but sometimes in practice two wrongs are better than one! A good example I can think of right now is in basketball. Sometimes refs make mistakes. Often they know it, they feel it, for one reason or another. When that happens, for example when they call an offensive foul that's by all accounts unfair, what they'll do is that they'll whistle a dubious foul on the other team, often right away, and often actually an offensive foul too, so that fairness be restored and players can play on without grudge/frustation in their heads. This is just one example where 2 mistakes are better than only one!  Perhaps it's against philosophical virtues, but all stakeholders involved in basketball prefer it this way. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Beijer
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 12:24
Mitglied (2009)
Niederländisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Fifty shades of Trados. | Jun 28, 2014 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL MITI wrote:
Michael Beijer wrote:
Now I need SDL Studio, 4 versions of memoQ, Wordfast (Pro and Classic), and a few other ones just to be safe.
I'm curious why you and others "need" so many tools. I have one and have never needed any other.
Hi Lisa,
I answered your question about why we need so many tools on the first page of this thread, which I will quote here:
‘However, there is another aspect to this, which relates to the way that the translation industry is structured today. More and more these days, idiot LSPs insist on forcing their translators to use a specific CAT tool (they have very good reasons for doing so, none of which are my concern). However, they didn’t all choose the same CAT tool. Some chose Wordfast Classic, some Wordfast Pro, some SDL Studio 2011, some SDL Studio 2014, some still use the old Trados, some chose memoQ (maybe version 4, version 5, version 6, memoQ 2013, and now memoQ 2014), a few chose DVX2/3, etc. Oh yeah, and none chose CafeTran or OmegaT.
Hmm. Anyway, so what does this mean? This means that I have agencies constantly telling me they have a job for me, but only if I use their CAT tool. Now, there are a few CAT tools out there that can handle a large number of CAT tool file formats (sometimes in the form of so-called ‘packages’), and many of them in fact pride themselves on their ‘interoperability’. However, it is often not good enough to only use their CAT tool to process these file formats from other CAT tools. Sometimes you really need to run it through the native program once before delivering your project to your client. So what are we translators to do? Some people solve this by just buying everything (like my friend Hans):
SDL Studio and/or the old Trados, memoQ (4,5,6, etc.), Wordfast (Pro and/or Classic), etc.
That’s great. They can sleep well at night in the knowledge that they have done the right thing. But is it really the right thing? Is it our fault that every agency insists on using yet another CAT tool, when they could very well just ask their translators for:
(1) A final word .docx
(2) A project TM as .tmx
(3) A bilingual review file as .docx (which can be reimported into the CAT tool, allowing the TM to be updated)
(4) A bilingual review file as .html
(5) A project glossary as a tab-delimited UTF-8 text file
Yes, you guessed it: the above 5 (or less) files is what my clients get from me.
Michael’
(source: http://www.proz.com/forum/software_applications/271090-do_you_use_pirated_software.html )
I think another post I wrote a few days ago (‘Word count in memoQ produces 377 words less than word count in CafeTran!!!’) also answers your question, or tries to:
(In the following quote, I am replying to a post by Istán, Kilray/memoQ’s CEO.)
Let me try to illustrate this with something that happened to me this very morning.
A regular(ish) client asked me if I wanted to do a job for them. Well, actually some robotic entity in their stoopid TMS did, but that’s another story. It was nice job, really big, pretty well paid, and in a subject area that I know well. However, it had to be done in memoQ. Hmm, I thought, I’d rather do it in CafeTran, but what the hell, I still own a licence for a relatively recent version of memoQ, maybe I can do it in CafeTran, export the TM, and use that to pre-translate and finalise the job in memoQ. Hell, I might even be able to export the memoQ .xlf and do that in CafeTran, checking and finalising it afterwards in memoQ. However, the file they sent me (a memoQ generated .xlf file*), which they insisted I had to use, was a complete &^%$£ mess. And this is somthing I see all the time. Most of its segments contained at least 5 (very long) sentences and all kinds of tags. I had to shrink down my grid font size in memoQ just to be able to fit a single segment on my screen. Hmm. Simultaneously, I got another job request, from a new client (a freelance translator, like myself). The text looked interesting, also right up my street. Same rate as the job above. I promptly emailed the first client and said ‘Sorry, I am no longer available for job #46747674676474 in your TMS.’
God knows how many times a week I have to turn down large jobs that look great and are pretty well paid but have to be done in either memoQ or Studio. After I politely decline, they then go looking for someone else who will work with their shitty files. However, keep in mind that I was their first choice. They now go and try their second, third, etc. choice(s), all because it simply has to be done in memoQ or Studio. These people are shooting themselves in their own feet. I know quite a lot of mediocre translators who are all too happy to slavishly follow The Rules and who will do the job in whatever they are told to do it in, even if this means they can’t even join or split segments, have no access to their own TMs and TBs, and god knows what other kinds of limitations imposed on them by the tools they are being forced to use. If I close my eyes I can see hordes of ‘Certified Trados users’ who can’t even open a .rar file. Great. The future is bright.
OK, I’ll shut up now, but I hope you see where I am coming from.
(source: http://www.proz.com/forum/cat_tools_technical_help/270943-word_count_in_memoq_produces_377_words_less_than_word_count_in_cafetran-page2.html )
As to whether it is possible to survive on open source tools alone (as you mentioned in the piece I quoted below), let me just say that I have tried it, and I really wouldn’t recommend it. And this is coming from someone who is relatively computer literate. A less tech savvy translator stands no chance in hell of using only free software and surviving (and not making a fool of himself) in the industry today.
Lisa Simpson, MCIL MITI wrote:
Anyway, to answer the OP's question: No. Theft is theft is theft. Two wrongs don't make a right and all the other clichés in the book. Sorry to take the moral high ground on this particular maze but I fail to see a justification for it. If you can't afford it, then fortunately there are several open source alternatives, use them and if you're happy with them and can afford to do so then make a contribution.
And yet another aspect is that you need to look at the bigger picture when thinking about these very large companies – such as Microsoft, Adobe, and SDL – and how they make their money.
Take SDL, e.g., which probably makes (much) more money from its server customers than from selling ‘Trados Studio 2014 Freelance’. Remember that they are also an LSP, so things are even more complex and sinister;) Is it really such as a bad thing if a bunch of freelancers (who, as someone already pointed out in this thread, probably wouldn’t have bought their software anyway) use pirated copies of SDL Studio 2014 to accept jobs from agencies? These same agencies pay SDL lots of money for their Studio server licences. Or even weirder: these freelancers might be using pirated copies of Studio to do work for SDL, the LSP. Hmm. You see what I mean?
When companies reach a certain size, things quickly morph from black & white to fifty shades of grey.
Michael
[Edited at 2014-06-28 14:37 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-06-28 14:39 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-06-28 14:40 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-06-29 13:55 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 12:24
Portugiesisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Different markets | Jun 28, 2014 |
We're clearly working with very different clients as none of mine stipulate a particular tool and if they did they'd simply be told I couldn't help them. Most of my clients don't even know I use a CAT tool.
As for how successful one can be working only with open source software, I can certainly think of at least half a dozen colleagues who do so, all experts in their fields and highly successful translators.
I don't spend time mulling over whether theft from the big b... See more We're clearly working with very different clients as none of mine stipulate a particular tool and if they did they'd simply be told I couldn't help them. Most of my clients don't even know I use a CAT tool.
As for how successful one can be working only with open source software, I can certainly think of at least half a dozen colleagues who do so, all experts in their fields and highly successful translators.
I don't spend time mulling over whether theft from the big boys is any less morally reprehensible than stealing from a software engineer struggling to pay his bills (I also know several of those). Both are theft and both are illegal. I'm afraid I don't see any shades of grey. ▲ Collapse
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Frankie JB
Frankreich
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
Michael Beijer wrote:
If I close my eyes I can see hordes of ‘Certified Trados users’ who can’t even open a .rar file.
It's because they are not Winrar Certified!! 
Lisa Simpson, MCIL MITI wrote:
I don't spend time mulling over whether theft from the big boys is any less morally reprehensible than stealing from a software engineer struggling to pay his bills (I also know several of those). Both are theft and both are illegal. I'm afraid I don't see any shades of grey.
The on-topic question is: do those "engineers" struggle to pay their bills because of piracy? Or isn't it rather simply due to a lack of success of their products? Not all software developers are engineers by the way...
Finally, I'll agree with the TA owner from the original story by Emma, i.e. it's part of the game to use pirated software if you have this opportunity. It's not something I do anymore because I have self-respect, but it doesn't mean I'll fight it. If so-called "engineers" can't prevent their software from being cracked by illiterate Third World kids, it's their problem.
| | | | Rolf Keller
Deutschland
Local time: 13:24
Englisch > Deutsch
| Victims are to blame? | Jun 29, 2014 |
Frankie JB wrote:
If so-called "engineers" can't prevent their software from being cracked by illiterate Third World kids, it's their problem.
In the Internet anybody can find instructions for lockpicking. What's the situation if I study these instructions, go into your house and steal s. th.? Am I a thief or not, then?
| | | | Erik Freitag
Deutschland
Local time: 13:24
Mitglied (2006)
Niederländisch > Deutsch
+ ...
| Shortsightedness | Jun 29, 2014 |
- I don't know what's the name of the concept (if it's been given one), but I seem to know that there are cases where the damage caused by piracy is actually NIL. One case, I think, is when the people using the pirated software can't afford it (I mean actually don't have the money and can't expect to have it before long). Example: some Pakistani web designer stealing Adobe software: the damage is not the loss of profit of the software cost for Adobe because the Pakistani would never buy it in any case.
I find it very irritating to witness such an amount of shortsightedness from a professional. Of course the web designer from your example does harm: He can offer his services cheaper (as he doesn't pay for his tools) than his honest colleagues (who do). Unfair competition.
In my book, using pirated software can not be excused. Under no circumstances. I don't use pirated software for the same reasons that I don't steal goods in the local supermarket. It's morally and legally wrong.
| | | | Frankie JB
Frankreich
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
Rolf Keller wrote:
Frankie JB wrote:
If so-called "engineers" can't prevent their software from being cracked by illiterate Third World kids, it's their problem.
In the Internet anybody can find instructions for lockpicking. What's the situation if I study these instructions, go into your house and steal s. th.? Am I a thief or not, then?
Entschuldigung Rolf, but your question is irrelevant, for the many reasons explained in this thread by different posters (including that software piracy is not theft but "merely" illegal use, and that a unique physical product is not even remotely comparable to a nonphysical product which can be reproduced ad infinitum...)
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Rolf Keller
Deutschland
Local time: 13:24
Englisch > Deutsch
| A Right is a right is a right | Jun 29, 2014 |
Frankie JB wrote:
software piracy is not theft but "merely" illegal use
"Theft" and "illegal use" are just words. One may use many different words as well. Anyway, the underlying fact is: Somebody violates a property right of someone else, just in order to get a personal benefit of some kind or other.
a unique physical product is not even remotely comparable to a nonphysical product which can be reproduced ad infinitum...)
One abstraction level higher there is no principal difference. On the lowest abstraction level all law is law of the jungle. But we are living in 2014.
[Bearbeitet am 2014-06-29 11:46 GMT]
[Bearbeitet am 2014-06-29 11:47 GMT]
| | | | Frankie JB
Frankreich
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
| Western-centrism | Jun 29, 2014 |
Erik Freitag wrote:
I find it very irritating to witness such an amount of shortsightedness from a professional. Of course the web designer from your example does harm: He can offer his services cheaper (as he doesn't pay for his tools) than his honest colleagues (who do). Unfair competition.
In my book, using pirated software can not be excused. Under no circumstances. I don't use pirated software for the same reasons that I don't steal goods in the local supermarket. It's morally and legally wrong.
1) I said the harm is limited for the software company (I didn't comment on externalities)
2) If you want to assume that my dummy Pakistani web designer then sells his services cheaper, then allow me to assume that his local competitors do the same because they also use pirated copies, for the good reason that it would take them 15 years of saving to buy a full Adobe suite.
I find it very irritating to witness such an amount of Western-centrism from a professional.
[Edited at 2014-06-29 11:14 GMT]
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hongkong
Local time: 20:24
Mitglied
Chinesisch > Englisch
+ ...
| First, do no good | Jun 29, 2014 |
Much good it does Microsoft if people are using Linux in lieu of pirating Windows, which is why Microsoft's efforts at combating piracy have always been half-hearted to say the least.
I'm not even going bother with the issue of your average user fumbling with Linux and trying to find appropriate software for it. It's one thing to take the moral high ground, but much good it does when the victims you jihad over are less than enthusiastic about the cause.
[Edited at 2014-06-29 ... See more Much good it does Microsoft if people are using Linux in lieu of pirating Windows, which is why Microsoft's efforts at combating piracy have always been half-hearted to say the least.
I'm not even going bother with the issue of your average user fumbling with Linux and trying to find appropriate software for it. It's one thing to take the moral high ground, but much good it does when the victims you jihad over are less than enthusiastic about the cause.
[Edited at 2014-06-29 11:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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