| Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2 3] > | Is there really a requirement under ISO for free test translations? Auteur du fil: MariusV
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Jeff Allen 
France
Local time: 18:08
langues multiples
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| test translations for compliance with ISO certification | Nov 27, 2008 |
The key issue here is "compliant with our ISO quality certification".
ISO certification, which most likely means more specifically that they are ISO 9001:2000 certified, is simply a framework for an organization to document how they can run themselves via a quality management system. How they do it is their own choice, but they must set it up and control check it.
Now, one of most obvious ways for establishing quality criteria within the translation industry is by using test ... See more The key issue here is "compliant with our ISO quality certification".
ISO certification, which most likely means more specifically that they are ISO 9001:2000 certified, is simply a framework for an organization to document how they can run themselves via a quality management system. How they do it is their own choice, but they must set it up and control check it.
Now, one of most obvious ways for establishing quality criteria within the translation industry is by using test translations. This has been practiced for a long time. How they are evaluated is another issue.
But, basically what the translation agency in question has stated in its own ISO 9001:2000 quality manual is that they have a specific process for evaluating the quality of their translation providers (and this might apply to inhouse staff as well as outsourcers) which is in the form of a translation test. And if they say they require translation tests, then they must do it for each and every provider. And when they are audited yearly, the auditor can come in and pick any project in the project directory, and analyze it from A-Z. And one of the points would be the translators and revisers, and how they were selected. There would need to documented proof that they took the test, and the scores, and all supporting evidence around that process.
Some companies will even further to show that they select only a certain percentage of translators who are tested, in order to demonstrate that they have quality thresholds in the retention cycle.
If the agency has an internal policy that they do not pay for sample translation tests, then that is their own problem, but has nothing to do with the ISO quality standard, nor the independent auditors who check that the company is following their documented quality management system according to the standard. Free or paid is simply is a business decision
I've also just checked the draft version of the EN 15038:2006 Translation Services standard. It nowhere stipulated the word "test". However, it does stipulate in the Human Resource section that there must be a documented procedure in place for selecting people who participate in translation projects and they they they necessary skills and qualifications. There are several specific requirements with regard to professional competency of translators (and reviewers). there are several subareas of competency which must be met. There could be different ways to check the competency, but the easiest way for a translation agency to document a selection procedure is to administer a translation test.
Jeff
(received ISO 9001:2000 auditor certification in 2005) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 18:08
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| sample test and alternatives under ISO certified context | Nov 27, 2008 |
MariusV wrote:
Let's see the context:
1) they offered/requested me to do a free test;
2) I said a clear "no" to that free test AND offered them a couple of other alternatives (if they really wanted to test);
3) that means I DID NOT refuse to get through their mincing machine and all those "procedures" - ONLY refused to do an unpaid test;
4) in this context - what do the ISO requirements/standards have in common with free test translations?
As I mentioned in my post above, if they have clearly stipulated in their Quality Management system that a translation test must be administered and passed, and do not have a statement that other options are possible, then you have to take the test to do projects with them.
This is especially important for ISO 9001:2000 because the management of suppliers is one of the important parts of that standard, as compared with previous versions and other related standards. Yet, nothing binds the company to administering a translation test except their statement in the quality manual and the quality processes that this is the only way that the selection process can be done.
If this is the case, then you need to take the test.
The issue is then only that their policy is not to pay for it.
So you could try negotiating payment or non-payment of such a test of such a test in a different way, like the following:
You agree to do the test for free unless you do not pass it, and then they need to pay you for your time.
You agree to do it for free if you pass and they guarantee you X amount of work during Y amount of time after the test is completed and passed.
etc.
Jeff
| | | | MariusV
Lituanie
Local time: 19:08
anglais vers lituanien
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AUTEUR DU FIL | Business is a thing of a mutual interest | Nov 28, 2008 |
Jeff Allen wrote: MariusV wrote:
Let's see the context:
1) they offered/requested me to do a free test;
2) I said a clear "no" to that free test AND offered them a couple of other alternatives (if they really wanted to test);
3) that means I DID NOT refuse to get through their mincing machine and all those "procedures" - ONLY refused to do an unpaid test;
4) in this context - what do the ISO requirements/standards have in common with free test translations?
As I mentioned in my post above, if they have clearly stipulated in their Quality Management system that a translation test must be administered and passed, and do not have a statement that other options are possible, then you have to take the test to do projects with them. This is especially important for ISO 9001:2000 because the management of suppliers is one of the important parts of that standard, as compared with previous versions and other related standards. Yet, nothing binds the company to administering a translation test except their statement in the quality manual and the quality processes that this is the only way that the selection process can be done. If this is the case, then you need to take the test. The issue is then only that their policy is not to pay for it. So you could try negotiating payment or non-payment of such a test of such a test in a different way, like the following: You agree to do the test for free unless you do not pass it, and then they need to pay you for your time. You agree to do it for free if you pass and they guarantee you X amount of work during Y amount of time after the test is completed and passed. etc. Jeff
Dear Jeff,
I fully understand what you said in your posts, i.e. that ISO QA procedures establish certain requirements. OK, no problem there. But you also said that ISO has NOTHING to do with free tests.
I see any business/deal is a transaction of two interested EQUAL parties - one party is interested to get services and earn money from that, the other party is interested to provide services and also earn money from that (people work for money). As long as there is no MUTUAL interest, no business/deal. Nothing is a "must" to anyone - freelancer is not a slave nor have any obligations or liabilities to the agency. Neither to work for free, nor to bear the costs of the agency procedures. To ensure the reliability of their vendors is their "homework", same like we have to ensure (on our own risk) the reliability of the outsourcers, i.e. that they will settle payments as agreed. So shall I also ask them to make a test money transfer just to be sure that their accountant is a real professional and that their "payment quality system" meets my "interior standards" for client reliability??? Same nonsense.
It is their problem, not mine, as how and why they test new freelancers. Let alone that BEFORE they wrote that email about their "ISO requirements", they already had a clear "No" on FREE tests. And "No" means "No", let alone there are MANY other (and much better) alternatives for QA procedures. To play stirring up "free tests" with "impreative ISO requirements" and "interior quality assurance procedures" (whether it was done intentionally or unintentionally) expecting that a translator will start jumping from happiness after the client mentions those magical words "ISO" and will rush to work for them for free on this basis, is, at least, not ethical from the point of view of the agency. Was it such a problem to tell that "under our interior standards and procedures, test translation is a must, we do not pay for test translations, and, well, it is a pity that you do not agree to do a test - good bye and good luck"? As ISO has nothing to dp with a must for any free tests.
| | | | Tarara Paso
Sri Lanka
Local time: 18:08
anglais vers espagnol
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| Let's approach it legally | Nov 28, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
... For instance, one agency wrote me that had a job* that they wanted me and nobody else to do because of what they had read on my CV. But... they needed sine qua non three verifiable references' contacts, to preserve their ISO certification. Very well, I called three of my most loyal clients, they gave me a green light, so I passed this information to the agency. In less than one hour all three received a lengthy questionnaire on me, plus... a message offering their translation services, that were allegedly faster, better, and cheaper than mine!!! Btw, my clients immediately phoned me, laughing and asking if these guys were really that good, if they ran this kind of a racket.
In view of these behaviours I think we have the right of issuing a contract of confidenciality, stating that the said company/person is not allowed by any means to contact the person we give as reference to offer translation services. I mean, clearly stating all legal stuff beforehand. Let's see if they sign it!.
If you have reliable information on the outsource, this should not happen. You are also handling lots of information and you maintain confidenciality. It is a matter of trust, basically.
I agree with Marius but it also has to do with the type of test in terms of length you are asked for.
Regards
[Edited at 2008-11-28 09:19 GMT]
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Encarna Laso wrote:
In view of these behaviours I think we have the right of issuing a contract of confidenciality, stating that the said company/person is not allowed by any means to contact the person we give as reference to offer translation services. I mean, clearly stating all legal stuff beforehand. Let's see if they sign it!.
Has anyone here ever heard of an international lawsuit because translator "A" - in spite of having signed a 7-page NDA with agency "B", which hired "A" to do work for "B"'s client "C" - told the world about it, and wound up being hired directly by "C"? ... especially because "C" paid "B" COD, but "B" hasn't paid "A" yet, and 4-6 months have elapsed since the job was delivered?
In Brazil sworn/certified translations (for documents in a foreign language to be acceptable for any official purposes) are governed by specific laws. I got an e-mail from a pleasant and keen PM from a (foreign) translation agency, who said she needed documents translated in a way that they would be acceptable by Brazilian authorities. I wrote a very detailed e-mail on the (several) points where their mandatory Agreement clauses clashed with Brazilian laws on the matter. Never heard from her again!
| | | | hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 18:08
anglais vers allemand
| ISO = professional? | Nov 28, 2008 |
[quote]Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
.... ISO certification means you are professional...
How come? What is being documented is workflow, not quality of achievement. So if I have an ISO-compliant documentation system but deliver fualty(!) translations - does that still leave me a professional? I doubt it.
Regards
[Bearbeitet am 2008-11-28 13:14 GMT]
| | | | | No free lunch | Nov 28, 2008 |
Was it Freeman who was awarded the Nobel Prize for pointing out that there is no such thing as a free lunch?
Someboby, somewhere, has to pay.
| | | | | The whole point of ISO | Nov 28, 2008 |
[quote]hazmatgerman wrote:
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
.... ISO certification means you are professional...
How come? What is being documented is workflow, not quality of achievement. So if I have an ISO-compliant documentation system but deliver fualty(!) translations - does that still leave me a professional? I doubt it.
Regards
[Bearbeitet am 2008-11-28 13:14 GMT]
I don't see where the problem is. The whole point of ISO certification is quality, and delivering quality translations has a lot to do with professionalism. If you are ISO certified and deliver faulty translations, then I don't see why you should be ISO certified. In other words, the specific purpose of ISO is meeting quality standards - a faulty translation isn't exactly what I would call a quality translation...
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MariusV
Lituanie
Local time: 19:08
anglais vers lituanien
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AUTEUR DU FIL | Let's reverse | Nov 29, 2008 |
[/quote]
I don't see where the problem is. The whole point of ISO certification is quality, and delivering quality translations has a lot to do with professionalism. If you are ISO certified and deliver faulty translations, then I don't see why you should be ISO certified. In other words, the specific purpose of ISO is meeting quality standards - a faulty translation isn't exactly what I would call a quality translation... [/quote]
OK, the point of ISO certification is ... See more [/quote]
I don't see where the problem is. The whole point of ISO certification is quality, and delivering quality translations has a lot to do with professionalism. If you are ISO certified and deliver faulty translations, then I don't see why you should be ISO certified. In other words, the specific purpose of ISO is meeting quality standards - a faulty translation isn't exactly what I would call a quality translation... [/quote]
OK, the point of ISO certification is quality - but does it, with its formal procedures, really ensures that the agency will ALWAYS deliver quality translations, and, most important, - will it ensure that on the basis of unpaid tests, the agency will be able to ensure that its vendors are professional? ISO should cover a wide variety of various formal and/or realistic quality assurance things and procedures. And FREE/UNPAID tests is not the one and the only instrument for quality assurance. A test translation can, at the very best, be only PART of quality assurance procedures. And there are many OTHER ways apart from the tests. Finally, it is not professional from the point of view of the agency to try to fool the translator that "we are ISO ceritfied, and that is why we ask you to do our job for free"...Not serious. ▲ Collapse
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MariusV wrote:
...will it ensure that on the basis of unpaid tests, the agency will be able to ensure that its vendors are professional?
...
And FREE/UNPAID tests is not the one and the only instrument for quality assurance.
That is exactly why I was saying that, even if ISO were to impose test translations based on that particular requirement in that particular agency's ISO manual, that still doesn't cover the whole of quality, and that doesn't excuse the agency's unwillingness to pay for the test. The very purpose ISO serves is quality, and requiring test translations doesn't cut it. I am sure that that agency has many more articles in their ISO manual which cover a wide range of quality subjects, the least of which is translation tests.
I simply don't believe in translation tests, and most of us are aware of instances where a brilliant test translation was submitted, the supplier got a green light, only for the agency to find out down the line that machine translation was used in subsequent jobs and that the supplier clearly wasn't up to snuff.
So, I repeat what I understood from the agency's message: they may be required to use a test, and there is nothing wrong with that, but nobody requires them to not pay for said test. Paying and not paying for the test is outside of the scope of ISO certification.
[Edited at 2008-11-29 18:32 GMT]
| | | | Verse 5B (X)
Local time: 18:08
anglais vers serbe
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I go with Marius and Victoria.
It is quite evident that a paid project , with a strict deadline and a complex translation content, will tell much more about translator's competence than a short sample test translation.
If they truly wanted to test translators' competence, they would do so on the basis of three paid projects ( where not only will they evaluate their translation skills, but also the work pace, responsiveness, ethics and many other big and small things t... See more I go with Marius and Victoria.
It is quite evident that a paid project , with a strict deadline and a complex translation content, will tell much more about translator's competence than a short sample test translation.
If they truly wanted to test translators' competence, they would do so on the basis of three paid projects ( where not only will they evaluate their translation skills, but also the work pace, responsiveness, ethics and many other big and small things that follow every translation project).
However, they can't do that, because they simply don't have projects in their directory that they are promising they have. But they do have a procedure that will make you join their translation agency ( like coaxing you with a test translation combined with big promises), because they need as many translators in their data base to look " serious".
I have a question for everyone : At translation websites, do you believe that there are some " dummy" phantom translation job postings that are not even real and will never be serving just to attract new potential linguists to pay subscription so they can bid on them? I mean, how can we control if they are phantom job posts or not? We can always believe that somebody else got the job, instead of thinking that the job didn't even exist? And these are combined with some real job posts.
[Edited at 2008-11-29 20:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2008-11-29 21:04 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Honest answer | Nov 29, 2008 |
Verse 5B wrote:
I have a question for everyone : At translation websites, do you believe there are some " dummy" phantom translation job postings that are not even real and will never be, and serve just to attract new potential linguists to pay subscription so they can bid on them? I mean, how can we control if they are phantom job posts or not? We can always believe that somebody else got the job, instead of thinking that the job didn't even exist? And these are combined with some real job posts.
Nobody has coached me for this answer, but I'd say that this doesn't happen on Proz, at least for my language pair. I was a free user here for several years before I became a member, and most of the jobs I got through Proz were restricted to members.
However there are some "fishing expeditions" on Proz by outsourcers who say they have a potential job, that serves only to populate their translators database. I'm unsure if I can mention its name here, but there is a free translation market site - easily recognizable by its dark yellow omnipresent color, and the fact that they live mostly on selling agencies e-mailing lists - where such "fishing expeditions" are more the rule than the exception.
And yes, I recall having seen other translation sites posting apparently bogus jobs, to lure people into paying their membership. It goes like this... they show you the job, but advise that as you are a non-paying user, you'll only be able to bid for it after a certain number of hours. The phantom jobs are somewhat easy to spot, as they never have enough detail for a non-paying user to decide if it's worth keeping a reminder to go back there after that time has elapsed. Usually it's only a (high) word count and the language pair. Then these jobs are quickly closed before that time, so they'll never have to show the details. Of course, now and then they display some legit jobs as well, but these are extremely rare, at least for my pair.
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MariusV
Lituanie
Local time: 19:08
anglais vers lituanien
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AUTEUR DU FIL | two more things | Nov 29, 2008 |
1) I still wonder why the agency refused to give a couple of small jobs (paid jobs, i.e. real translations) out of that "big potential project" to see how the translator works. If they have a super duper QA (ISO or whatever certified), they MUST have a team of very professional proofreaders and shall REVISE ALL texts they receive from translators (esp. the ones who are new to them)...So, is it possible to give several paid jobs if they actually do not have them???
2) a paid job is an obli... See more 1) I still wonder why the agency refused to give a couple of small jobs (paid jobs, i.e. real translations) out of that "big potential project" to see how the translator works. If they have a super duper QA (ISO or whatever certified), they MUST have a team of very professional proofreaders and shall REVISE ALL texts they receive from translators (esp. the ones who are new to them)...So, is it possible to give several paid jobs if they actually do not have them???
2) a paid job is an obligation to the agency and a free test is NO obligation - neither to pay, nor to explain "the negative feedback", nor to respond at all.
And all that blah blah, do a free test, we are SO-ISO certified, probably means that they are simply collecting as many CVs as possible (asked for the CV too - how much sense does the information about the birth date, town you were born, etc. can make), and want to show to the ISO supervisers "how hard they work" - "Dear Mister/Madam from ISO - see that huge pile of papers where were test the translators SOOO strictly? On average we rejected 9 out of 10 translation tests" (who cares, maybe we do not even read those tests). Let alone all those application forms (yes, we ask the translators everything - from the CPU of their PCs, to what they usually eat for breakfast), CVs, other papers we have on the shelf - a huge collection of souls. "Oh, yes", responds the Mister/Madam from the ISO, "It is very very impressive, you are really worth having these words on your website 'ISO certified' and the certificate together with other 18 certificates (ISA, UFO, IBO, ...) that are hanging on the walls in nice frames at the office of your CEO".
[Edited at 2008-11-29 21:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Verse 5B (X)
Local time: 18:08
anglais vers serbe
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They are silly with these practices. It's like kids playing business.
On few occasions, I had clients who claimed they had so many projects for my language pair that they can't get to manage them all. So, I applied and passed the test, got positive reviews from them, and never heard from them again !
| | | | MariusV
Lituanie
Local time: 19:08
anglais vers lituanien
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AUTEUR DU FIL
Verse 5B wrote: They are silly with these practices. It's like kids playing business. On few occasions, I had clients who claimed they had so many projects for my language pair that they can't get to manage them all. So, I applied and passed the test, got positive reviews from them, and never heard from them again !
I think we should be a little cautious with delivering of personal info. OK, no problem to send a CV or to fill in some online database form. But we never know for what actual purposes our personal info is used and who actually manages it. Not even speaking about those test translations which, in most of the cases, end in nothing. Agencies or clients who REALLY have a project - they have all the contact and relevant info and will have no time for all those tests, forms, or whatever else to waste their and our time on.
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