Mar 2, 2012 17:19
12 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Deutsch term
Zeichenkörper
Deutsch > Englisch
Kunst/Literatur
Kunst, Kunsthandwerk, Malerei
modern art
This is a description of a work by the artist Karen Scheper that is based on a novel by Philip K. Dick called 'Clans of the Alphane Moon'.
'Karen Schepers Schriftzeichnungen materialisieren und verdichten den Dickschen Welten- und Formenkosmos. Mit einer sowohl konzeptuellen wie auch spontanen, gestischen Arbeitsweise generiert sie ausgehend vom geschriebenen Wort abstrakte Welten, die dem Ursprungstext entspringen, sich aber von diesem losgelöst haben und sich, wie von der Kraft des Urknalls angetrieben, weiter im Raum auszubreiten scheinen. Sie überwinden förmlich den flachen Trägergrund, bewegen sich auf frei im Ausstellungsraum hängenden Zeichenkörpern und riesigen Papierbögen, um in den dreidimensionalen Raum überzugreifen, den sie damit regelrecht erschaffen'.
There's a Wikepedia description of what a 'Zeichenkörper' is but this gives me no clue as to what it could be in English.
My only idea so far is 'sign carrier'.
'Karen Schepers Schriftzeichnungen materialisieren und verdichten den Dickschen Welten- und Formenkosmos. Mit einer sowohl konzeptuellen wie auch spontanen, gestischen Arbeitsweise generiert sie ausgehend vom geschriebenen Wort abstrakte Welten, die dem Ursprungstext entspringen, sich aber von diesem losgelöst haben und sich, wie von der Kraft des Urknalls angetrieben, weiter im Raum auszubreiten scheinen. Sie überwinden förmlich den flachen Trägergrund, bewegen sich auf frei im Ausstellungsraum hängenden Zeichenkörpern und riesigen Papierbögen, um in den dreidimensionalen Raum überzugreifen, den sie damit regelrecht erschaffen'.
There's a Wikepedia description of what a 'Zeichenkörper' is but this gives me no clue as to what it could be in English.
My only idea so far is 'sign carrier'.
Proposed translations
+1
3 Stunden
Helen Shiner
Vereinigtes Königreich
Vereinigtes Königreich
Native in Englisch
Specializes in field
Vereinigtes Königreich
Arts/Academic translator - Art historian
Native in: Englisch
Works in: Deutsch > Englisch, Französisch > Englisch
Related KudoZ points
:
279
Selected
symbolic elements / figural symbols/signs / drawn figures/elements
Do you have a picture of these things? Yes, a carrier of signs in the sense of symbolic or even semiotic, depending on how highbrow the text. I would only use figural if they do, indeed, reference the human form, otherwise elements or some such.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-03-02 21:09:38 GMT)
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Depending on the images in question, you could also possibly say 'coded' or 'code-laden' figures/elements or even simply 'signifiers' (but that last is semiotics again and might be too intellectual for the tone of the piece.
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Note added at 1 day20 hrs (2012-03-04 13:43:40 GMT)
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Here is my reasoning for going for Zeichen as in code/symbol/sign rather than drawing, which is anyway Zeichnung.
In all composites I have found where Zeichen occurs and refers to the ACT of drawing, it is not referring to the OUTCOME of that process, i.e. the drawing itself:
Zeichenbedarf/Zeichenmittel: drawing material i.e. material FOR drawing, not material upon which it has been drawn. That may or may not occur later.
Zeichenpapier - drawing paper, i.e. paper FOR drawing upon, not paper on which it has been drawn.
See also Zeichenfeder - pen to be used FOR drawing, not a pen on which it has been drawn.
Zeichengrund - surface or ground upon which one might draw
Zeichentisch - drawing table, i.e. table which one may use upon which to engage in the act of drawing, not a table covered by drawing.
For the reason outlined above, I do think that the issue is the force of the objects that is key - either in terms of what is drawn on them - i.e. coded (in the semiotic sense) material in some way, or FAR MORE LIKELY their force or intervention in the designed / conceptual space as forms per se. That the artist has drawn upon them is incidental in terms of the sentence to be translated.
Yes, these are 3-D objects, Lothar - where did I say they were not.
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Note added at 1 day20 hrs (2012-03-04 13:45:00 GMT)
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So, yes, 'carrier of signs', as you suggest, or simply 'signifiers' or 'signifying elements' is the way to go in my view.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-03-02 21:09:38 GMT)
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Depending on the images in question, you could also possibly say 'coded' or 'code-laden' figures/elements or even simply 'signifiers' (but that last is semiotics again and might be too intellectual for the tone of the piece.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day20 hrs (2012-03-04 13:43:40 GMT)
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Here is my reasoning for going for Zeichen as in code/symbol/sign rather than drawing, which is anyway Zeichnung.
In all composites I have found where Zeichen occurs and refers to the ACT of drawing, it is not referring to the OUTCOME of that process, i.e. the drawing itself:
Zeichenbedarf/Zeichenmittel: drawing material i.e. material FOR drawing, not material upon which it has been drawn. That may or may not occur later.
Zeichenpapier - drawing paper, i.e. paper FOR drawing upon, not paper on which it has been drawn.
See also Zeichenfeder - pen to be used FOR drawing, not a pen on which it has been drawn.
Zeichengrund - surface or ground upon which one might draw
Zeichentisch - drawing table, i.e. table which one may use upon which to engage in the act of drawing, not a table covered by drawing.
For the reason outlined above, I do think that the issue is the force of the objects that is key - either in terms of what is drawn on them - i.e. coded (in the semiotic sense) material in some way, or FAR MORE LIKELY their force or intervention in the designed / conceptual space as forms per se. That the artist has drawn upon them is incidental in terms of the sentence to be translated.
Yes, these are 3-D objects, Lothar - where did I say they were not.
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Note added at 1 day20 hrs (2012-03-04 13:45:00 GMT)
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So, yes, 'carrier of signs', as you suggest, or simply 'signifiers' or 'signifying elements' is the way to go in my view.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Cilian O'Tuama
: "semiotic" I came across too in my amateur research, but don't even know what it means. Can't agree or disagree. But will agree anyway.
3 Stunden
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Thanks, Cilian
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| neutral |
Stephen Reader
: Hi H., don't want 2b mean but think Zeichen here synon. with Zeich*nungs-* (?) (Cf. Zeichenunterricht)
4 Stunden
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I will have to persist in disagreeing with you on this one, Stephen - lesson for drawing not drawn lesson, after all./Please see my explanatory notes, if you've got time and interest.
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| disagree |
Lothar Beyer
: Zeichenkörper here is a threedimensional object, as the carrier of the drawings, which at this point has nothing to do with symbols, etc.
19 Stunden
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What part of my answer leads you to suggest I am arguing against the object being 3-D. You evidently haven't understood my answer./My explanatory notes may help - just appended.
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| neutral |
thefastshow
: @ lothar.. sorry mate I just only saw you exactly mentioned here what I just posted .. I just didn't read this.. shame on me!
1 Tag 17 Stunden
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My name is Helen, and I have already agreed with Slindon's suggestion of 'carrier'.
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| agree |
Horst Huber (X)
: Forget about all that "Zeichen-" stuff, it's not about "Zeichnen". "Überwinden" and ""bewegen" are quite dynamic, and on "bodies" too, so "elements" or something like "(bodily?) symbols" might get us somewhere?
1 Tag 22 Stunden
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Thanks, Horst
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "I've reverted to 'sign carriers' and feel reinforced in this by Helen and thefastshow. Points to Helen since she was the first to agree."
-1
26 Min.
cut-out
Judging from images of the work, I would say that this is a creative use of the word Zeichenkörper and not necessarily a specific one. The objects which the word seems to be referring to are like cut-outs. You could use a bit of artistic creativity and say something along the lines of: figure cut-outs or silhouette cut-outs.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Stephen Reader
: With you for non-specific. Cf. http://www.karenscheper.de/project/how-to-build_I.html, the coming-free-of-the-wall 'independence' seems n.b. (Sans pics 'silh.'/'cut-out' still suggests v. much 2-D & likely on a conventional pic-support)
8 Stunden
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| disagree |
Lothar Beyer
: cut-out does not represent "überwinden förmlich den flachen Trägergrund"
23 Stunden
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+1
8 Stunden
rephrase/ the drawing(s) even taking shape as (independent / ((at a pinch: )) free-floating) bodies
'the drawing' above being in collective/generic singular sense. With Helen's proviso re. tone of piece, maybe even 'semiotic bodies'. I read Zeichenkörper as Zeichen = Zeichnung, das Zeichnen (cf. Zeichenunterricht), & Körper as in body celestial, geometric, etc., a 3-D struc. (even if @ least some are still on 2-D supports albeit suspended off the walls through the exh-space). Author c'd've also said (assuming the above) the drawings become detached from the walls & become objects (albeit ruining the poetics of the piece in this case).
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Lothar Beyer
: I think that is the best translation, because it mirrors the move from 2 to 3 dimensions
14 Stunden
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dankedanke, Lothar
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1 Tag 20 Stunden
carrier
They leave their limitating flat 2 dimensional levels(or layers) behind and intrude (or move freely in) the exhibition space by means of suspended carriers and....
I think "carrier" might be suitable and is unspecific ,"open" enough to refer to the concept of Zeichenkörper and the description of the actual art work
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Note added at 1 day22 hrs (2012-03-04 15:58:01 GMT)
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Dear Helen... how was I supposed to tell Lothar other than posting on your thread?
I couldn't find "carrier of meaning" as expression either.. and being a little tired I also didn't see you sign carrier support.
Please be assured I know what I'm talking about.
There is a difference between the Saussure etc. "signifier" and the Zeichenkörper concept . It will be wrong to just talk about signifier and it it is not easy to decide which semiotic concept is "the one" since to most people even the simple concepts aren't exactly clear. Please allow yourself to pick from this page :))) : http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/S4B/sem02.html
We will have to agree it all depends on which model we choose to pick ..
Wikipedia offers another publication : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeichenkörper
look under Textstellen !
I have chosen carrier only since those objects in the installation are just that.
They take all different shapes and in my opinion (talking semiotics here) those carriers (their nature,material and shape ) contribute little to the meaning of the specific piece of art here ( The content is not displayed e.g. on suspending TVs and on the other hand she could have easily used aluminium sheets or plywood. In other words would it have made a difference concerning the meaning of the artwork if she had used cardboard instead of foamboard- I don't think so).
Carrier also works well as a connotation of a vehicle on which those Welten or drawings do travel into (3 D) space .
In this specific case I do believe just " carrier " is apt .
I think "carrier" might be suitable and is unspecific ,"open" enough to refer to the concept of Zeichenkörper and the description of the actual art work
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Note added at 1 day22 hrs (2012-03-04 15:58:01 GMT)
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Dear Helen... how was I supposed to tell Lothar other than posting on your thread?
I couldn't find "carrier of meaning" as expression either.. and being a little tired I also didn't see you sign carrier support.
Please be assured I know what I'm talking about.
There is a difference between the Saussure etc. "signifier" and the Zeichenkörper concept . It will be wrong to just talk about signifier and it it is not easy to decide which semiotic concept is "the one" since to most people even the simple concepts aren't exactly clear. Please allow yourself to pick from this page :))) : http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/S4B/sem02.html
We will have to agree it all depends on which model we choose to pick ..
Wikipedia offers another publication : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeichenkörper
look under Textstellen !
I have chosen carrier only since those objects in the installation are just that.
They take all different shapes and in my opinion (talking semiotics here) those carriers (their nature,material and shape ) contribute little to the meaning of the specific piece of art here ( The content is not displayed e.g. on suspending TVs and on the other hand she could have easily used aluminium sheets or plywood. In other words would it have made a difference concerning the meaning of the artwork if she had used cardboard instead of foamboard- I don't think so).
Carrier also works well as a connotation of a vehicle on which those Welten or drawings do travel into (3 D) space .
In this specific case I do believe just " carrier " is apt .
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Helen Shiner
: Such comments are generally made in the discussion box./You asked the question. I gave you a civil answer about the Kudoz convention. Your personal diatribe is uncalled for./I took no offence - that was your interpretation.
14 Min.
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Point is Helen I did ask for the link to mentioned carrier of meaning and not more, besides common sense usually ouperforms conventions by far. nuff said - no need for you to have taken offence in the first place ok?
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Discussion
At the opening, she will perform together with Spastic Dementia as The Automatic Ant. """ It really depends what you want to express in your translation of Zeichenkörper : 1. a material semiotic carrier or 2. a plastic drawn object/sign of a certain shape or possibly both... I'll have a think