| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3] > | ProZ social dumping and pricing Initiator des Themas: jeffrey engberg
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| That's the point | Sep 24, 2018 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
How it works now
Translation agency posts a job on Proz: 9,000 words, English to Norwegian, on breakthrough technology in surgery, highly technical medicine, we pay USD 0.03/word in 60 days after month end.
I can't imagine what kind of bids they get, but several dozen of them.
But that post isn't allowable on ProZ.com, and hasn't been for some years. The posting rules specifically forbid any specific rate information from being stated in the text. The only place that a budget can be given is in the blue budget box. I'm not sure everyone can see that - maybe only paying members can? And we only see it if we've asked to see it - it can be hidden. It also clearly includes the information that you're free to quote whatever you like because you aren't bound by their budget.
Obviously some posters either don't read the rules or simply break them. That's why there's a special clickable link to report specific rate information. I've used it many times and the job has almost always been removed within minutes.
Apparently Sigmund Freud said something about sex and money. Let's use the principle as it is, even if that's not true.
As job posts are vetted, the solution would be to treat ANY mention to money, payment, compensation exactly as vetters would treat pictures of bare genitalia. The only exception allowed would be a "this job is pro-bono" checkbox.
Even innuendoes like "limited budget", "wealthy end-client" would be prohibited. No place to enter a budget anywhere. Proz is actually inviting - no matter if unintentionally - low rates. Would you walk into a used car store, and say "I have $100K to buy a car" if you had them? No!
Like in any other business, the seller sets their price. In used cars, they paint it on the windshield. If the buyer sees no affordable figure there, they should WALK (and keep walking, or take a bus), IOW leave the material in its source language and face the music.
| | | | | The posted budget also acts as a filter | Sep 24, 2018 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Even innuendoes like "limited budget", "wealthy end-client" would be prohibited. No place to enter a budget anywhere. Proz is actually inviting - no matter if unintentionally - low rates.
But every job poster has a budget, even if it isn't mentioned. If I see what looks like an interesting job offer, then go to the trouble of sending a quote to the poster only to discover he only wants to pay $0,01/word, then it's been a waste of everybody's time. At least if I see the client is offering peanuts, I know to steer clear.
Why do you think it is that the customers who contact me specifically through my profile would never dream of offering the rates we see posted on the job board? Simple. I see the ProZ job board as the Craigslist of the language industry. Sometimes something worthwhile pops up, but mostly it is frequented by people looking for the lowest price. If you want clients who pay more, you need to look elsewhere.
| | | | | That's what Proz is supposedly intended to avoid, by conception | Sep 24, 2018 |
Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
But every job poster has a budget, even if it isn't mentioned. If I see what looks like an interesting job offer, then go to the trouble of sending a quote to the poster only to discover he only wants to pay $0,01/word, then it's been a waste of everybody's time. At least if I see the client is offering peanuts, I know to steer clear.
The name "Proz" was created to convey the image of "Professional Translators".
In no other trade that I know of, the buyer sets the price.
Auctions are auctions, that is supposedly a different line of business.
Public tenders usually require TWO bids: technical and commercial, so the prospective buyer can evaluate each offer in terms of both cost (commercial) AND benefit (technical).
If the poster 'wants' to pay $0.01/word for professional translation, his/her budget is blatantly WRONG! Let them use free, online Google Translate then, not Proz (as in Professional Translators).
Say you are getting married. A professional photographer may want $1,000 for a professional job. If you 'want' to pay $50 for that, you can hire your neighbor's teenage nephew to take snapshots with his cell phone. If you want it for free, maybe the priest will let you get screencaps from the church's security cameras footage.
[Edited at 2018-09-24 12:45 GMT]
| | | | | many factors... | Sep 24, 2018 |
Henry has many times stressed that ProZ is only a platform and that they don't wish to dictate rates, just "suggest" - see pop-up box with message "these rates are below the average on Saturnus"... it's up to us to accept them or reject them. We are all professionals and vaccinated, as we say in Italian...  The reason the rate has disappeared in most cases is to stop people getting the idea that those low rates are the on-going s... See more Henry has many times stressed that ProZ is only a platform and that they don't wish to dictate rates, just "suggest" - see pop-up box with message "these rates are below the average on Saturnus"... it's up to us to accept them or reject them. We are all professionals and vaccinated, as we say in Italian... The reason the rate has disappeared in most cases is to stop people getting the idea that those low rates are the on-going standard rates. Because this is not true. I know it seems a waste of time to many, but we want to preserve our professional image, don't we? There are many people who are very vocal about low rates, and how unacceptable they are, but then they don't mind having them displayed in big characters on a site that many consider the site for finding translators...
Finally, we operate in a global, electronic market, where you don't need to bake your translation and send it in a box from Norway to India and vice versa. There are several segments and several markets, several standard of living and millions of individual circumstances. All you need to do is to pick your market, your specialisation and your rates and stick to them. If you are good, people will find you and will come to you. Forget about the bakers in Taiwan or the fishermen in Honolulu... ▲ Collapse
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Daniel Frisano 
Italien
Local time: 03:10
Mitglied (2008)
Englisch > Italienisch
+ ...
jeffrey engberg wrote:
There is no excuse.
Gross domestic product per capita, purchasing power parity (i.e., adjusted for cost of living), IMF data 2017, in USD dollars:
1 Qatar 124,927
2 Luxembourg 109,192
3 Singapore 90,531
4 Brunei 76,743
5 Ireland 72,632
6 Norway 70,590
...
94 Jordan 12,487 (median value out of 187 countries ranked)
...
122 India 7,174
...
187 Central African Republic 681
Differences are WAY more dramatic if you use nominal values (based on exchange rates) in lieu of PPP.
How about that for an excuse?
| | | | | Proz could show the community rates with each job | Sep 24, 2018 |
Just an idea: What Proz could do is show the community rates for the language pair (and field, if applicable) with each posted job, as an informational service for job posters and bidders alike.
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Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
Just an idea: What Proz could do is show the community rates for the language pair (and field, if applicable) with each posted job, as an informational service for job posters and bidders alike.
this already happens? Not 100% sure...
| | | | Robert Forstag
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 21:10
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Fears of stigmatization | Sep 24, 2018 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Because no viable solution has been found to combat it. Search the forum for the hundreds of previous discussions on this issue, and see if you can figure out a practical solution that would actually work and actually be fair to everyone.
"Viable" solutions have been proposed, but just not accepted by proz, as that would likely reduce their client base (and revenue), while they've been obviously working hard to maximize that, at all costs.
If you were a baker in Norway, would you believe that bread sellers in India are hurting the baking industry by asking such low prices for bread in in India? Think about it: if you were a baker in Norway, and you wanted to sell your bread in India, what would you have to do? The fact that the baker doesn't actually travel to India to sell his bread (he just sits at home in Norway at a computer with an internet connection) doesn't turn the Indian bread buyers in to Norwegian bread buyers.
Not sure why you like "Indian bread sellers" so much, but unfortunately yours is a bad case of strawman, as we all know that what Eastern agencies do in most cases is just price dumping, by buying services from Western service providers (when end-clients are particularly "lucky") and reselling them to Western clients. Besides, more in general, someone who buys translation services into a Western language is obviously going to use them to operate in those markets, which command higher prices. In other words, I very much doubt that a translation into Norwegian would be used within the Indian market...
And BTW, this is another topic that has been discussed in "hundreds of previous discussions", and yet, someone somewhere always pops up with some untenable analogy like yours...
I have proposed what I think is a viable solution at least four different times over the past 15 years: Create two separate categories (e.g,, “premium jobs” and “substandard-rate jobs”), and distinguish the two categories clearly in the job listing itself (i.e., no one should have to open an individual job listing in order to find out that the budget offered “falls below 80% of rates charged for this language pair”).
This site clearly is not interested in making such a change, I suppose for fear of driving away the posters of the substandard jobs through stigmatization.
Stigmatization of offers of two cents a word for a 20,000-word project due in 2 days, with payment promised in 90 days? How dreadfully unfair!
[Edited at 2018-09-24 14:47 GMT]
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I thought we had a "premium" jobs option already? Or whatever it's called... (im)posters can post a premium job - these jobs are supposed to be offered by reputable companies with an above average remuneration? Or maybe I dreamt of it... possible! Not that I dream of ProZ.com daily...
[Edited at 2018-09-24 14:35 GMT]
| | | | Richard Purdom
Portugal
Local time: 02:10
Niederländisch > Englisch
+ ...
| redistribute that wealth | Sep 24, 2018 |
As we're dealing with language, why is the term 'social dumping' being used to decry anybody in a poor 3rd-world country doing work that somebody in an absurdly rich 1st-world country charges 5 times as much for?
Good luck to them, and I hope these Luddite efforts to create a cartel, like Norway's own OPEC oil cartel that has led to it drowning in cash, fail dismally.
In fact I find these the pompous and loaded terms 'social dumping' and 'bottom-feeders' used here offensive; ... See more As we're dealing with language, why is the term 'social dumping' being used to decry anybody in a poor 3rd-world country doing work that somebody in an absurdly rich 1st-world country charges 5 times as much for?
Good luck to them, and I hope these Luddite efforts to create a cartel, like Norway's own OPEC oil cartel that has led to it drowning in cash, fail dismally.
In fact I find these the pompous and loaded terms 'social dumping' and 'bottom-feeders' used here offensive; we are supposed to care about language, so how about a bit more creativity and a bit less denigration? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 21:10
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Consider the constituency | Sep 24, 2018 |
Richard Purdom wrote:
As we're dealing with language, why is the term 'social dumping' being used to decry anybody in a poor 3rd-world country doing work that somebody in an absurdly rich 1st-world country charges 5 times as much for?
Good luck to them, and I hope these Luddite efforts to create a cartel, like Norway's own OPEC oil cartel that has led to it drowning in cash, fail dismally.
In fact I find these the pompous and loaded terms 'social dumping' and 'bottom-feeders' used here offensive; we are supposed to care about language, so how about a bit more creativity and a bit less denigration?
If something like 80% of the paid members of this site (and of those who purchase the expensive CAT tools so heavily advertised here) hailed from desperately poor countries where penny-a-word rates accompanied by 90-day payment terms are considered acceptable, then I would completely agree with you.
Alas, my understanding is that the opposite is more nearly true.
If nothing else, facilitating content that is considered highly offensive to a significant percentage of paying members is simply bad for business.
[Edited at 2018-09-24 18:14 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Niederlande
Local time: 03:10
Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Mirko and @Katalin | Sep 24, 2018 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
"Viable" solutions have been proposed...
Well, I know of none.
Someone who buys translation services into a Western language is obviously going to use them to operate in those markets, which command higher prices.
Only in an ideal world will end-clients pay agencies as much as the product is actually worth or as much as the actual value that the product has for the end-user.
Katalin Szilárd wrote:
There is a huge difference. Bread is not ordered and bought via the internet from thousands of miles.
No analogy is a perfect fit for what it is used to explain. But the difference is not "huge" in this case. The issue is whether out-of-country sellers should expect to sell their products to in-country buyers for prices that are much higher than those that such buyers would normally get from in-country sellers.
We work via the internet and our clients receive their orders via the internet.
That is true, but we're not using "internet money". Despite the global village, money to be paid is still tied to a country.
Besides, there is a serious error of logic here. If the advantage of working via the internet and delivering a product via the internet is that the cost of logistics is very low, then surely product should become cheaper, not dearer.
The original poster speaks of dumping, but dumping is done by sellers, not buyers.
The logic says that your product (intellectual product, i.e. your translation and the quality behind it) will be the same no matter which country you are working from.
Sure, but this discussion is about price, not quality. The fact that your quality is the same no matter where you are does not mean that your price should be the same no matter where you are.
[Edited at 2018-09-24 21:37 GMT]
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Daniel Frisano
Italien
Local time: 03:10
Mitglied (2008)
Englisch > Italienisch
+ ...
Quick poll among jeffrey engberg and all those who support his position:
Check on the back of the device you are using right now to read this page, where it says "Made in ...". Is it made in which country? First world? Assembled by workers earning first-world wages?
Be honest.
Now who's dumping who?
[Edited at 2018-09-24 21:55 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 21:10
Mitglied (2005)
Englisch > Chinesisch
+ ...
| You may want to give your own answer of "who's dumping who". | Sep 24, 2018 |
Daniel Frisano wrote:
Quick poll among jeffrey engberg and all those who support his position:
Check on the back of the device you are using right now to read this page, where it says "Made in ...". Is it made in which country? First world? Assembled by workers earning first-world wages?
Be honest.
Now who's dumping who?
[Edited at 2018-09-24 21:55 GMT]
If you could give your own answer of "who's dumping who" first, that question can be better answered.
[Edited at 2018-09-25 04:48 GMT]
| | | | | More regulation of job posts and quotes - posting and bidding subject to fee | Sep 26, 2018 |
As we live in a highly globalised world, the job posting system should be organised accordingly. It does not matter if the poster is from Europe, Asia or Africa, they should adhere to the same rules and principles. The fact that some translators living in poor countries (with lower minimal wage, median wages or professional rates) are willing to work for lower rates is not a problem. it is their choice and we cannot blame them for this in any respect.
I assume that the majority of ... See more As we live in a highly globalised world, the job posting system should be organised accordingly. It does not matter if the poster is from Europe, Asia or Africa, they should adhere to the same rules and principles. The fact that some translators living in poor countries (with lower minimal wage, median wages or professional rates) are willing to work for lower rates is not a problem. it is their choice and we cannot blame them for this in any respect.
I assume that the majority of my colleagues have a grudge against the simple fact that low rate jobs appear on the board. If you really want to fight it, in my opinion there are 2 ways how to do this: Either divide the job posting process into subsections based on the economical (or geopolitical) region of the job poster country. Then the job poster would have to post jobs in their respective zone as posting would be automatically routed according to the address of the poster on their proz profile or Blue Board. It is enough if PROZ made the first step by classifying each country in the world according the economical markers (e.g. they can use a list of countries by GNI to set up 4 zones x cca 50 countries, as appearing on the wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(nominal,_Atlas_method)_per_capita)
Each of the 4 or 5 zones would have automatically set rate ranges, that would be available the quote field/box. These would differ according to the four groups.
In the body of the quote all numbers/e-mails/phone numbers would be disallowed (same as on dating sites or classified ad site as e.g. gumtree) in order not to circumvent proz as the middleman. - Meaning that the name/details of poster are hidden to all quoters until such time, when the Quoter clicks on "Accept bid" at which point the bidder gets an automated message with the job poster details.
E.g. an agency from Russia (Upper-middle-income group, no 64 in the world ranking) would be able to post a job with a budget selectable from a selection box starting at [0.04 EUR/W], [0.05 EUR/W], [0.06 EUR/W], etc, but no lower.... The same would apply for the translator. However, there would be no upward restriction.
An agency from India could post jobs starting at [0.025 EUR/W] but no lower....The same would apply for the translator
An agency from Uganda, could post e.g. [0.01 EUR/W] but no lower.
Vice versa, an agency from Germany could post a job with a budget selectable from a selection box starting at e.g [0.05 EUR/W] but no lower.
The highest economical group, which consists of countries like Palau/Hungary/Croatia at number 53-55 (12 000 USD GNI), Italy/Kuwait/France (33 000 GNI), numbers 23-26 and top tier Switzerland/Luxemburg/Norway etc. (60 000 - 80 000) at the upmost top could be further divided into further subgroups. Then the minimal posting/quoting price could be further restricted, eg. starting from 0.07, starting from 0.15, whatever.
The gist is that agencies would not have the option to suggest a certain lower price (for the region) and translators would not have the option to bid lower that a certain price (for the region)
This would require a complete overhaul of the proz job posting system, however a tram of good IT experts could implement this coding without any problems.
Or, the second option is subjecting the privilege of job posting AND job quoting to a simple standardised fee - 1 USD/EUR/GBP.
Hereby bottom feeders would restrain from posting as well as translators quoting bottom prices. They would shift to other pages, but the fee is not so large to prevent serious business being conducted on this site. The fee is completely feasible to the vast majority of working persons in most countries in the world.
I hope I make sense in my suggestions.
[Edited at 2018-09-26 11:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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