| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42] > |
"这一次大陆又输了" Thread poster: deleted. (X)
|
|---|
wherestip 
United States
Local time: 00:07
Chinese to English
+ ...
David,
I'm sorry if my post was off base. Sometimes it is hard to tell whether you are debating the issue or just guiding the discussion in general as the moderator. For that I apologize, and I hope you understand. 
| | | |
David Lin
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:07
Member (2013)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Moderator of this forum | Comparison, critique, debate and selection | Sep 24, 2014 |
wherestip wrote: David Lin wrote:
如欲阅读更多有关广告设计的经验法则，请参考以下美国 University of Tennessee College of Communication and Information 的链结，或可帮助大家了解为什么 Apple 的文宣高手选择了具古文韵味且带模糊性，甚至有点反常无问号的 "岂-止于-大"，而不是直译的 ”比更大还更大“：
David, I don't think anyone here is advocating for "比更大还更大". The issue I think is whether "岂-止于-大" lives up to all the hype. 
Thanks Steve.
I know.
In actual fact, in the advert profession, there is always some form of comparison when two or three drafts of slogans are presented to the Creative Communication Manager of a corporation/or PR firm. Each one will then be critiqued whether it lives up to the professional standard (Rules of Thumb). The designers could debate with one another in front of the Manager who would also ask questions as he/she scrutinizes them.
In the debate, all the professional rules will be used as well as the sources and inspirations of each design (by the designer/s) in order to convince the boss.
Only through comparison and debate would the final and best possible outcome be selected and used.
I imagine it would be the same procedure in this iPhone 6 slogan selection. They don't discuss one draft, drop/accept it and then discuss/not discuss a new one.
And as we discuss the chosen slogan by Apple, maybe we should also bear in mind that there is another one or two available for selection but was unfortunately not chosen, to be fair to all.
Hope this helps our discussion.
PS: No problem about your last post. I know your good intention that is to help me clarify my intention.
[Edited at 2014-09-24 20:21 GMT]
| | | |
wherestip
United States
Local time: 00:07
Chinese to English
+ ...
David Lin wrote:
I imagine it would be the same procedure in this iPhone 6 slogan selection. They don't discuss one draft, drop/accept it and then discuss/not discuss a new one.
And as we discuss the chosen slogan by Apple, maybe we should also bear in mind that there is another one or two available for selection but was unfortunately not chosen, to be fair to all.
Hope this helps our discussion.
David,
Thanks for your understanding.
I guess between "比更大还更大" and "岂-止于-大", one would pick the lesser of two evils. 
| | | |
jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 01:07
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| You are absolutely right | Sep 24, 2014 |
wherestip wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Phil Hand wrote: jyuan_us wrote:
一般的虚词也都是有具体意思的，有了具体的意思，就会让相关的词的意思变了。
Yeah...都不能说绝对的... 我不知道你是怎麼定義虛詞的，之乎者也應該都是有實際意思的吧？ 也許也字沒有。即使沒有實際意思，只起結構作用，放在短語里，它們仍然會影響到相關字眼的意思。 也 emphasizes whatever is said before it, so it's always at the end of a phrase or sentence. That's just my feel for its use, not necessarily correct.
| | |
|
|
|
David Lin
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:07
Member (2013)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Moderator of this forum | real-life corporate decision | Sep 24, 2014 |
wherestip wrote: David Lin wrote:
I imagine it would be the same procedure in this iPhone 6 slogan selection. They don't discuss one draft, drop/accept it and then discuss/not discuss a new one.
And as we discuss the chosen slogan by Apple, maybe we should also bear in mind that there is another one or two available for selection but was unfortunately not chosen, to be fair to all.
Hope this helps our discussion.
David, Thanks for your understanding. I guess between "比更大还更大" and "岂-止于-大", one would pick the lesser of two evils.
Steve,
I agree and that's almost always true in real-life decision making in a corporate conference room when the poor designers have to fight fiercely for their way to get their design accepted by the management.
And from the management point of view, there is time restraint as well from the PR department/firm which is responsible for launching a campaign in society according to a timeframe, and struggle with media schedule and other campaign-related activities such as ribbon cutting and Business VIP dinner at the same time.
When two designs are available, the one that receives least criticism would be chosen. As simple as that.
No time for the third/fourth design!
How cruel it is you might say, but it's the reality in making business-cum-art decisions in the competitive corporate world.
Obviously in this iPhone case, without prejudicing our discussion, I guess the one that was not picked lost a hundred miles to its competitor as it obviously did not get enough tick/check boxes in an ordinary Rules of Thumb list for ad slogan design.
The lost designer is probably cursing on the winning piece saying it's this bad and that bad compared to his/hers.
It'll take some time to recover by admitting defeat gracefully and then rise up again in another competition in the future, coz you lost the battle in the reign of the big, world-class client called "Apple".
[Edited at 2014-09-24 20:20 GMT]
| | | |
wherestip
United States
Local time: 00:07
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Survival Skills | Sep 25, 2014 |
David Lin wrote:
The lost designer is probably cursing on the winning piece saying it's this bad and that bad compared to his/hers.
It'll take some time to recover by admitting defeat gracefully and then rise up again in another competition in the future, coz you lost the battle in the reign of the big, world-class client called "Apple".
I hear you, David.
The skill to jockey for position in a competitive environment has never been my forte. I've been lucky enough in my career never having to acquire it, much less hone it.
[Edited at 2014-09-25 18:02 GMT]
| | | |
Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 23:07
English to Chinese
J.H. Wang wrote:
大中之大
或者
大之大者
我脑子里也冒出一个：
“大了又大”。和前面的文字也有个呼应。
| | | |
Phil Hand
China
Local time: 13:07
Chinese to English
jyuan_us wrote:
你真的認為這句話是有意模糊處理的結果嗎？
绝对有。仅说这个论坛，刚开始不是大家都以为是”岂止“，现在有一批人改了想法，觉得应该是”岂“？那就是说，在它的结构上，它会产生歧义，但两种读法都能传达苹果的概念，所以属于成功的模糊处理。
能清晰表達的事，為什麼要故意模糊？
因为清晰表达只是广告行业的沟通考量之一，除此之外他们还得触动目标群体的购物神经，产生好感，产生感染力。你想一想：看到我们这么热烈地讨论他们的口号，那些做广告的高兴死了！大家从头到尾都一直在说苹果的话，想苹果的产品。对他们来说，这是大收获。苹果不会因为语法错误而扣他们的工资。
雖然“大部分的人不会想这么多”， 就可以用不規範的語言？
这没什么可以不可以，没有人申请，没有人管，唯一的标准是沟通与否。不规范语言是广告行的家常便饭，就看麦当劳的那个。
说明一下，我这个不是”叫好“，我没办法去判断这个口号好不好，因为我不是目标消费者，语感跟人家不一样。我只是说，拿现代普通话或传统文言文的语法规则作为批判的标准是没有太大意义的。口号的卖点不在于语法。
另外，我还是觉得更多人会把它读成”岂止“(于)大，因为”岂“单字已经根本不存在于现代汉语。这是一个科学课题：读者实际上怎么理解它（注：不是读者应该怎么理解它）。
| | |
|
|
|
jyuan_us wrote: Kenneth Woo wrote:
現代文並非演化自古文，而係由古代白話演化而來。
[Edited at 2014-09-24 13:40 GMT] 这个命题比较大，很难说分明。你可以说古代的白话和现代的是类似的，也就是说当代的中文书面语言就是古代和或当代的口语的书面形式，这在一定程度上1也许是正确的，但是你不能把现代书面中文和古文/古代汉语完全割裂开来。 我原来的意思是，从古文/文言文/古代汉语吸收入当代书面语的词汇，都已经变成现代汉语。大量的成语都是来自古典文献的，当然都是古文/文言文/古代汉语，但是你能把它们叫作文言文吗？ 这个离开了讨论的焦点，我不会展开说。我的一个POINT是，感觉某个词是文言，就认为它是好的，这个观点缺乏基础。
古代漢語包括文言和白話，其中文言即所謂「古文」。
我並未把現代中文和文言完全分隔出來，前帖中也根本沒有提及。其實，文言和白話一直是相互影響的，白話吸收了不少文言詞彙和少許固定句式，同樣，文言中亦有白話詞彙，如「阿堵物」之類。
成語之類只是文言詞彙，不能叫做文言文（文言文章）。當然，如果一篇現代文裡面含有成語，我們也不能說這篇文章就是文言文，但可以說裡面含文言成分。
文章優劣當然不能以是文是白來評判，就一般文章而論，首先應看其是否簡約、通暢、得體、言之有物、符合邏輯。
| | | |
jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 01:07
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 你的前提是/你的脑海中认为苹果DID A GOOD JOB in many aspects | Sep 25, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote: jyuan_us wrote:
你真的認為這句話是有意模糊處理的結果嗎？ 绝对有。仅说这个论坛，刚开始不是大家都以为是”岂止“，现在有一批人改了想法，觉得应该是”岂“？那就是说，在它的结构上，它会产生歧义，但两种读法都能传达苹果的概念，所以属于成功的模糊处理。
能清晰表達的事，為什麼要故意模糊？
因为清晰表达只是广告行业的沟通考量之一，除此之外他们还得触动目标群体的购物神经，产生好感，产生感染力。你想一想：看到我们这么热烈地讨论他们的口号，那些做广告的高兴死了！大家从头到尾都一直在说苹果的话，想苹果的产品。对他们来说，这是大收获。苹果不会因为语法错误而扣他们的工资。 雖然“大部分的人不会想这么多”， 就可以用不規範的語言？ 这没什么可以不可以，没有人申请，没有人管，唯一的标准是沟通与否。不规范语言是广告行的家常便饭，就看麦当劳的那个。 说明一下，我这个不是”叫好“，我没办法去判断这个口号好不好，因为我不是目标消费者，语感跟人家不一样。我只是说，拿现代普通话或传统文言文的语法规则作为批判的标准是没有太大意义的。口号的卖点不在于语法。 另外，我还是觉得更多人会把它读成”岂止“(于)大，因为”岂“单字已经根本不存在于现代汉语。这是一个科学课题：读者实际上怎么理解它（注：不是读者应该怎么理解它）。
那么苹果在翻译方面也一定会DID A GOOD JOB的(老兄， 有一个词叫over-generalization.)。 因此，不管它的翻译水平多么低、多么不准确、多么不入流，都不是翻译水平低，而是有专家故意进行了模糊处理。
| | | |
jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 01:07
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 不管是文言还是白话，不管有没有模糊处理， 岂字在这里是误用 | Sep 25, 2014 |
不管怎样模糊处理，用词都是有规范的。即使玩文字游戏的，也都是遵循文法规律的，创造只能在允许的范围内进行。
用错了词、口号中有语病，这些都不是光荣的事，说严重点那叫丢人现眼。
岂能、岂止，岂只，岂可，岂不是，等等，后边搭配的字是不能省略的。省略是可以的，但要遵循没有语法错误，不产生歧义的原则。
Phil, 请教这个英语�... See more 不管怎样模糊处理，用词都是有规范的。即使玩文字游戏的，也都是遵循文法规律的，创造只能在允许的范围内进行。
用错了词、口号中有语病，这些都不是光荣的事，说严重点那叫丢人现眼。
岂能、岂止，岂只，岂可，岂不是，等等，后边搭配的字是不能省略的。省略是可以的，但要遵循没有语法错误，不产生歧义的原则。
Phil, 请教这个英语句子：
how could you have done that?
把其中的任何一个单词省略，还能是原来的意思吗？语法还正确吗？
如果你得回答是肯定的，那我没法争论。
如果你回答：拿掉任何一个都能接受，因为这是模糊处理， 我也没法争论。
如果你的回答是否定的，那么你就不能把岂止于大的不当省略这个问题忽略掉，否则就是颠倒黑白了。
用词不当是不行的啊。 请你再看看这个：
把NOT ONLY。。。。。。BUT ALSO 的前半部份写成
null only
nil only
no only
hardly only
no lonely
not alone
你还认为它们是正确的吗？如果你还回答是， 那么英语也太随便了吧？
你还认为这样做是模糊处理吗？ ▲ Collapse
| | | |
就目前而言，我没见过任何IT数码媒体对“岂止于大”产生任何理解偏差或困难。就沟通而言，我认为这个口号是成功的。
如果从严格的语法意义上来说，或许的确有问题。但语法上错的，而实际上被广为接受的语言表达，在实际语言应用中屡见不鲜。尤其在广告行业，如果大家都觉得OK，那么是否意味着语法规则需要变更？
更何况，语法本来就应该源自对... See more 就目前而言，我没见过任何IT数码媒体对“岂止于大”产生任何理解偏差或困难。就沟通而言，我认为这个口号是成功的。
如果从严格的语法意义上来说，或许的确有问题。但语法上错的，而实际上被广为接受的语言表达，在实际语言应用中屡见不鲜。尤其在广告行业，如果大家都觉得OK，那么是否意味着语法规则需要变更？
更何况，语法本来就应该源自对语言现象的归纳吧。
Phil Hand wrote: jyuan_us wrote:
你真的認為這句話是有意模糊處理的結果嗎？ 绝对有。仅说这个论坛，刚开始不是大家都以为是”岂止“，现在有一批人改了想法，觉得应该是”岂“？那就是说，在它的结构上，它会产生歧义，但两种读法都能传达苹果的概念，所以属于成功的模糊处理。
能清晰表達的事，為什麼要故意模糊？
因为清晰表达只是广告行业的沟通考量之一，除此之外他们还得触动目标群体的购物神经，产生好感，产生感染力。你想一想：看到我们这么热烈地讨论他们的口号，那些做广告的高兴死了！大家从头到尾都一直在说苹果的话，想苹果的产品。对他们来说，这是大收获。苹果不会因为语法错误而扣他们的工资。 雖然“大部分的人不会想这么多”， 就可以用不規範的語言？ 这没什么可以不可以，没有人申请，没有人管，唯一的标准是沟通与否。不规范语言是广告行的家常便饭，就看麦当劳的那个。 说明一下，我这个不是”叫好“，我没办法去判断这个口号好不好，因为我不是目标消费者，语感跟人家不一样。我只是说，拿现代普通话或传统文言文的语法规则作为批判的标准是没有太大意义的。口号的卖点不在于语法。 另外，我还是觉得更多人会把它读成”岂止“(于)大，因为”岂“单字已经根本不存在于现代汉语。这是一个科学课题：读者实际上怎么理解它（注：不是读者应该怎么理解它）。 ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
LoyalTrans
Local time: 13:07
English to Chinese
+ ...
纯粹从个人感觉角度看，“岂止于大”，好于这个帖子里提出的任何其他一种译法。
广告语翻译本来就不需要严格的对应，能传神就好。至于对“于”的理解，起码我这个母语为汉语的人不觉得有任何歧义，也不觉得有别扭的感觉。
相反，“岂止更大”读上去倒是感觉有点太过于直白。
纯属个人感觉。
| | | |
Jinhang Wang
China
Local time: 13:07
English to Chinese
+ ...
LoyalTrans wrote:
纯粹从个人感觉角度看，“岂止于大”，好于这个帖子里提出的任何其他一种译法。
广告语翻译本来就不需要严格的对应，能传神就好。至于对“于”的理解，起码我这个母语为汉语的人不觉得有任何歧义，也不觉得有别扭的感觉。
相反，“岂止更大”读上去倒是感觉有点太过于直白。
纯属个人感觉。
看来你、David、Yuliang 我们的意见比较一致。
| | | |
Jinhang Wang
China
Local time: 13:07
English to Chinese
+ ...
|
| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42] > |
Login to reply/comment 
