| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Who makes an offer like this? Thread poster: George Trail
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| Now THAT is humour! | Jul 1, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
I am also wondering why any person who is educated and intelligent enough to be a translator would even remotely consider this kind of ordeal to make minimum wage despite their university degrees. To those "volunteers": I'd rather recommend a solid hour or two with a dominatrix, if true humiliation and insult are your pleasure.
Seriously.
This is so funny, true and sad at the same time. For me, it is a question of self-esteem...and everybody has to decide where he or she positions him-/herself. I know that I do not want to earn a minimum salary; I am way too good at what I do for that.
[Edited at 2013-07-01 17:40 GMT]
| | | | Anthony Baldwin 
United States
Local time: 23:45
Portuguese to English
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LilianBNekipelo wrote:
a total Theatre of the Absurd. I just wonder when these companies will be forced to close down due to the type of work they are doing. Some really decided that it is a great business to MT text or have it translated by a very cheap, unqualified translator, and then pay for editing -- the type of editing where you almost have to retranslate the whole text. Business thinking does not always work -- maybe in sales, but not necessarily in the more artistic and scientific fields.
As to this offer -- it will take about 3 weeks of full time work, and it is worth approximately $6,000 (or more).
[Edited at 2013-06-28 16:51 GMT]
But I charge more for editing than this proposal indicates for translation (the rate here is US$0.0378/word).
I wouldn't even MT and edit their text for this rate.
And I believe my rates are quite reasonable (just on the low side of average according to proz.com's indications).
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Christine Andersen wrote:
Language looks like a commodity.
Translations are bought and sold by the page or in units of thousands of words. A page is a piece of paper - think of the newspaper and advertising copy that is here today and mulched for recycling or polluting the environment tomorrow.
Like a kilo of rice, how many grains are there in that? Many people simply buy their rice where it is cheapest.
No other professionals market their work in the same way, and nor should we.
Some translators work by the hour, e.g. in-house translators in law firms. Speaking of which, I certainly would appreciate an hourly rate befitting my awesomeness. (The rookiest of associates are billed at €100 or 80 maybe by BigLaw.)
Peter Shortall wrote:
I've had prospective clients ask me what my "quality assurance procedure" is, as if I were churning out identical products on a conveyor belt. Some agencies even shy away from saying "translation" or "translator" at all, as if they were dirty words. Instead of translating, we vend, we supply or we contract.
Well, I guess you could educate direct clients. I sometimes experience moments of thinking, hey, how about we just told the clients what our work looks like and what it takes.
[Edited at 2013-07-01 15:48 GMT]
| | | | | Now you're talking.. | Jul 3, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: I'd rather recommend a solid hour or two with a dominatrix, if true humiliation and insult are your pleasure.
Seriously.
As long as it's you, Nicole!
Steve K.
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 20:45
English to German
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In memoriam
Steve Kerry wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote: I'd rather recommend a solid hour or two with a dominatrix, if true humiliation and insult are your pleasure.
Seriously. As long as it's you, Nicole! Steve K.
I'd rather buy you a beer or bake you some muffins to keep you from accepting this job.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 20:45
English to German
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In memoriam | That's the purpose of education in the first place | Jul 4, 2013 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
It is a mistake to believe that a university degree entitles you to a higher income, or that being satisfied with a lower income if you have a university degree means that there is something wrong.
Sorry, nonsense.
Why else would you invest precious years of your life in education?
Let me tell you a little bit about my times as a university student. My parents were very wealthy, and my dad was the CEO of a nation-wide furniture retail chain. They however didn't like my boyfriend with whom I had been in a five-year relationship. To force me to split up with this young man and to "come back home" (40 miles from my university where I had to show up at 8am every morning) they contacted my university and all authorities and managed to block each and every government grants and support that I was entitled to. "We will drive her to school every morning,", they declared, and the authorities were happy to have this case closed. How I managed to get my degree at one of the greatest universities in Germany? I pulled empty bottles out of trash cans, brought them to the store, so I could buy a bar of soap.
My nick name was "skeleton". My university degree? I finished my course in Marketing with a straight A.
So, Samuel. University degrees don't really mean anything, right? They are so easy to get, right?
Edited for typo: "buy"
[Edited at 2013-07-04 00:25 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 09:15
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | There is hardly anything we can do about it | Jul 4, 2013 |
These job offers provide a valuable learning experience to the newcomer translator. To others, it provides valuable warnings about whom all one should avoid in the fraternity of outsourcers. To the outsourcer the learnings are all positive. The outsourcer gets the job done, pockets a big profit, and as in most cases the end client never knows the difference between a good translation and a disaster translation, the outsourcer's belief in his business model is reinforced after this dealing and he... See more These job offers provide a valuable learning experience to the newcomer translator. To others, it provides valuable warnings about whom all one should avoid in the fraternity of outsourcers. To the outsourcer the learnings are all positive. The outsourcer gets the job done, pockets a big profit, and as in most cases the end client never knows the difference between a good translation and a disaster translation, the outsourcer's belief in his business model is reinforced after this dealing and he is emboldened to try it again, and most likely with equal success.
What can we translators do to stop this obviously detrimental practice for our business? We can only raise awareness among newcomer translators about their and their family's financial requirements and how these requirements can only be met if we charge a decent rate. We should tell new translators that they need to take into account many hidden costs such as old age pensions, children's education, insurance, housing loans, future software and hardware costs, vacation and entertainment costs, and money put away for lean periods and sick days. At rates like 3 cents a word, only a hand to mouth existence at the lowest levels of quality of life is possible. But how are we to tell them? We have no vehicle for reaching out to them, other than forums like these. And a twenty-something newcomer translator is too young, raw, inexperienced and short-sighted to be thinking of old age pensions and his children's expenses.
In other words, we all know what needs to be done but none of us know how to go about doing it. We don't have any profession-wide nodal agency that can issue price-guidelines and enforce their compliance, nor do we share the same vested interest with our fellow translators. The newcomer's vested interest is to get the first job, and he is prepared to go to any length for this. The established translator's vested interest is to keep the rates high. The two are at variance and newcomers and veterans adopt different pricing strategies.
We can only hope that once they get established, the newcomers will realize the need to charge a decent rate. But that is only a forlorn hope because, the tide of newcomers entering our profession never stops and for every newcomer who moves into the established translator slot, ten newcomers enter the profession. That is the crux of the issue, the entry of new people into our profession is unrestricted and unless that can be regulated, the rates will continue to crash. And the sad thing is, there is nothing any of us here can do to regulate the entry of new hands into the profession.
Th unlikely saviour for us could be technology. With MT maturing by the hour, it is likely to syphon away all the low-end, low-priced jobs and only the more serious, quality jobs would remain that can only be done by experienced and talented professional translators. Thus MT would finally stem the tide of newcomer translators by supplanting them with an even cheaper alternative. In other words, MT will beat the newcomer at his own game - the price game.
We can only hope that MT won't progress even further to beat the veteran at his game - the quality game.
[Edited at 2013-07-04 02:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell wrote:
I'd rather buy you a beer or bake you some muffins to keep you from accepting this job.
Nothing like a good muffin...
Steve K.
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Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
We can only hope that MT won't progress even further to beat the veteran at his game - the quality game.
[Edited at 2013-07-04 02:38 GMT]
But it will, eventually. As sure as eggs are eggs...
Steve K.
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Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Th unlikely saviour for us could be technology. With MT maturing by the hour, it is likely to syphon away all the low-end, low-priced jobs and only the more serious, quality jobs would remain that can only be done by experienced and talented professional translators. Thus MT would finally stem the tide of newcomer translators by supplanting them with an even cheaper alternative. In other words, MT will beat the newcomer at his own game - the price game.
'Cept there's likely gonna be a gazillion of PEMTing jobs. With n00bs outta the way and no more: 'but the other translator has agreed to do it for half your price,' we'll still be targeted for savings. No more translating from scratch and getting paid for it. Just like CAT matches work.
[Edited at 2013-07-04 17:52 GMT]
| | | | | Newcomers and decent rates | Jul 4, 2013 |
@ Balasubrabaniam- but I know outsourcers who accept translators charging quite high rates because they know the quality offered and they realise that the translation is different; usually these ask for a sample translation before, or you have to respond in the source language, not in the target language. True, they might be few but most outsourcers want quality+low rates, that is a fact
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Josephine Cassar wrote:
@ Balasubrabaniam- but I know outsourcers who accept translators charging quite high rates because they know the quality offered and they realise that the translation is different; usually these ask for a sample translation before, or you have to respond in the source language, not in the target language. True, they might be few but most outsourcers want quality+low rates, that is a fact
I actually know a small agency owner who adjusted quotations to pay more than was quoted. She had her vision of what was good and acceptable, she didn't want translators to go below that, nor did she wish them to rush their jobs. Right now, she sometimes has those tightly priced projects, but she's always let me know when it's been possible to charge whatever it really has been worth. Some of the best rates I've ever earned, including direct clients.
I've also heard from plenty of outsourcers who won't do the same but will instead be happy to have received a low quotation for a high-quality job. Presumably, they will hand more jobs to the same translator due to the advantageous quality-to-price ratio, but that's about it.
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Rita Pang
Canada
Local time: 23:45
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
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MODERATOR | There isn't anything wrong, really | Jul 5, 2013 |
Edward Potter wrote:
Both the offer and the protesting are legitimate. This is what price adjustment is all about.
Truthfully, there isn't anything wrong with this offer. With the language pair i work in, many, many translators will work for $0.04 a word for EN>CH translations. It's just the way that market is. Given the fact that it's so saturated, the industry there simply works this way: you don't want it, somebody else will take it.
These low offers serve an important purpose for our industry. Newcomers who have a tough time getting their foot in the door can gain valuable experience from taking these jobs. They will learn customer service, billing, collections, etc. After having done a good job they can ask for a recommendation from their new (albeit low-paying) customer.
Conversely, the offering party will gain experience on what certain prices will bring as regards talent and reliability.
There are many things to be gained (for certain people) by accepting a low paying job.
It's obviously "wrong" to those of us who have what it takes to quote and accept jobs only at higher rates. Obviously I am not saying that these kind of prices should be encouraged, but at the same time, for a lot of newcomers, this is an opportunity regardless: you learn and you get paid at the same time. You don't get paid much, but you are learning a lot about the tricks of the trade.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 05:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| The purpose of university | Jul 5, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
It is a mistake to believe that a university degree entitles you to a higher income, or that being satisfied with a lower income if you have a university degree means that there is something wrong. Sorry, nonsense. Why else would you invest precious years of your life in education?
The reason you go to university or college is to learn how to do the job that you want to do. If the job you aspire to is something that can be done without university training, then the reason you go to university is so that you can do your job better than you would have been able to do it without the education. But being able to do something better does not necessarily mean that you'll get more money for doing it.
There are types of jobs and subject fields in which better education usually or always leads to better pay, but I don't think linguistics is in that category.
How I managed to get my degree at one of the greatest universities in Germany? I pulled empty bottles out of trash cans, brought them to the store, so I could buy a bar of soap. ... So, Samuel. University degrees don't really mean anything, right? They are so easy to get, right?
I'm not sure where this comment of yours fits into our discussion, Nicole. I never said that getting a university degree is easy. We're not discussing the ease of getting a university education here, but whether having gotten it now entitles you to live the good life, or not.
Good for you that you managed to get a university degree after many years of suffering. I'm sure you "feel" that you are now entitled to live a life of comfort. Unfortunately being able to live such a life after having struggled to get the degree depends on what you studied and what work you do.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 20:45
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | @Samuel: What suffering? :-) | Jul 5, 2013 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
The reason you go to university or college is to learn how to do the job that you want to do. If the job you aspire to is something that can be done without university training, then the reason you go to university is so that you can do your job better than you would have been able to do it without the education. But being able to do something better does not necessarily mean that you'll get more money for doing it.
There are types of jobs and subject fields in which better education usually or always leads to better pay, but I don't think linguistics is in that category.
Yes, it does. Just ask any other highly specialized translator who is a medical doctor, a lawyer, a scientist or an engineer. We sell know-how and expertise in a particular field, not our time for putting words into a different language.
I'm not sure where this comment of yours fits into our discussion, Nicole. I never said that getting a university degree is easy. We're not discussing the ease of getting a university education here, but whether having gotten it now entitles you to live the good life, or not.
Good for you that you managed to get a university degree after many years of suffering. I'm sure you "feel" that you are now entitled to live a life of comfort. Unfortunately being able to live such a life after having struggled to get the degree depends on what you studied and what work you do.
Sorry, but: Hahaha!
University was the best time of my life, BTW. The point of my example: I managed to get my will pretty early in life. Result: I was in a management position in record time, and I have kept it like this ever since.
I do not see the point why anyone who has invested years and lots of money in education should all of the sudden leave all those achievements behind and submissively accept silly rates that are dictated by people who can't do the job themselves.
For the record: Because I moved to a country where I could no longer do my job because I am a not a native speaker, I went to university again - to study translation and to be able to continue working for my old clients and in my old profession. It's that easy.
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