| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3] > | A suggestion: three New Year’s Resolutions for KudoZ players Initiator des Themas: IanW (X)
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| Way to Go Ian! | Jan 5, 2004 |
Thanks for bringing this up. I am one of those who often hold back from trying to offer a helpful suggestion to a Kudoz question because I have neither the time nor the inclination to engage in a childish war of words with a faceless opponent. I don't define myself as a professional by the number of kudoz I may collect, nor do I need to show off to my colleagues (as some members of the clique seem to find irresistible). I hope that by reading your suggestions and all the responses posted we a... See more Thanks for bringing this up. I am one of those who often hold back from trying to offer a helpful suggestion to a Kudoz question because I have neither the time nor the inclination to engage in a childish war of words with a faceless opponent. I don't define myself as a professional by the number of kudoz I may collect, nor do I need to show off to my colleagues (as some members of the clique seem to find irresistible). I hope that by reading your suggestions and all the responses posted we are all reminded this is not a pissing contest but rather an invaluable resource to elevate the profession we claim to practice. ▲ Collapse
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 11:51
Französisch > Englisch
+ ...
| absence does not make the heart grow fonder.... | Jan 5, 2004 |
First of all, thanks to Ian for raising this topic and Happy New Year to all of you out there.
For the past couple of weeks I have been involuntarily cut off from email/Internet. I have therefore been off air in relation to Proz.
This has proved a positive experience because, although today I'm having a quick look through and reading these forums, I am now disillusioned about the whole thing and the break has been salutary.
I joined Proz through friends to prospect the market.... See more First of all, thanks to Ian for raising this topic and Happy New Year to all of you out there.
For the past couple of weeks I have been involuntarily cut off from email/Internet. I have therefore been off air in relation to Proz.
This has proved a positive experience because, although today I'm having a quick look through and reading these forums, I am now disillusioned about the whole thing and the break has been salutary.
I joined Proz through friends to prospect the market. The one thing that has come out of the exercise is that I am going to stick with the day job to the bitter end! When I see how things work and the way the bidding system operates, I realise that there are people out there who will work for peanuts, for sums that would not get me out of bed in the morning (but then I have a partner to bail me out if I get stuck and enough customers for the moment without having to go on the hunt). Despite this, I have to admit that over the past few months I had become rather addicted to answering Kudos questions. OK - I admit also that at times I began to be a little irritated by the fact that some people out there were clearly having others do their legwork. If I and others can look things up on Internet, so can the askers. There is no excuse for laziness.
In turn I have asked a few questions - mostly for slogans because I know how much people enjoy the mental gymnastics involved. But sometimes it has been for sentences where I had holed myself into a corner and needed a second opinion. If only for that, Kudos has been worth its weight in gold.
It was all fun while it lasted but for the very reasons mentioned by Ian and the fact of not being part of the "magic circle", I now intend to be a far less active player than I have been of late. No names, no pack drill but there have been times when I have felt like appealing to the organisers as regards the behaviour of certain people. Not always because they were attacking me or another contributor but because they were using forcing techniques to get their answer accepted, at times even when it was patently wrong. The dogmatic attitudes of some contributors and their self-assuredness are quite amazing !
Confession time: I have occasionally been riled into responding to their jibes. If I feel things get out of hand, I tend however to send them an explanatory email in the hope of making peace. Mostly these fall on deaf ears!
So what I want to say is that, although I appreciate the principles behind Proz, I hope that someone can intervene and stop the rot (especially in the pairs indicated) or I, for one, will pull out altogether and I suspect I will not be alone. It is a crying shame because when you are working on your own, a little peer feedback from time to time does no harm. In addition, answering a few questions when you are working on something that refuses to advance or need a change of scene is a good way to kill two birds with one stone. As to points, they become self-defeating in the end. As to cliques, these should be abolished forthwith.
I could go on but will simply subscribe to Ian's appeal and wish everybody a happy, healthy and successful New Year
Chris ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You're right, Ian | Jan 5, 2004 |
especially about the agree--"cronyism" of a lot of people. I also think some people just hit the agree button for the answer which already has the most agrees without even considering the less "popular" answers. Another thing that has been bugging me is that when you don't get around to a question until say 24 hours after it was posted, you stand almost no chance of getting any agrees at all because people just don't revisit these "old" questions. So be quick or go unnoticed seems to be the deal... See more especially about the agree--"cronyism" of a lot of people. I also think some people just hit the agree button for the answer which already has the most agrees without even considering the less "popular" answers. Another thing that has been bugging me is that when you don't get around to a question until say 24 hours after it was posted, you stand almost no chance of getting any agrees at all because people just don't revisit these "old" questions. So be quick or go unnoticed seems to be the deal. I guess it is the natural consequence of the sheer number of KudoZ questions posted every day.
Yes, just like Chris, I have also had times where I was downright addicted to answering KudoZ questions. Sometimes I have to stop myself and ask myself what the hell I think I've been doing the last three hours and who for.
I'm a relatively new member and all in all I have to say that it's been a good experience to get out of the isolation of my single office and feel like I have colleagues. I would have liked to meet some of you at the powwow but unfortunately couldn't make it.
Happy New Year to everyone.
Heidrun ▲ Collapse
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lenkl
Local time: 11:51
Französisch > Englisch
| Taking a break | Jan 5, 2004 |
Thank you Ian and the others who are trying to restore KudoZ to its original intended purpose. I sincerely hope that something can be done. At this stage, all that is being produced is a frequently embarrassing glossary of little or no value to translators.
I made the suggestion a little while ago that the system ought to be adjusted so that no one would be able to post an answer until after a brief waiting (or “cooling-off”) period, in the hope that this might encourage those w... See more Thank you Ian and the others who are trying to restore KudoZ to its original intended purpose. I sincerely hope that something can be done. At this stage, all that is being produced is a frequently embarrassing glossary of little or no value to translators.
I made the suggestion a little while ago that the system ought to be adjusted so that no one would be able to post an answer until after a brief waiting (or “cooling-off”) period, in the hope that this might encourage those who wish to make suggestions to (1) carefully read the question (2) do whatever research may be required, and (3) draft a succinct answer.
Like others, as things stand now, I am no longer interested in participating in what is all too frequently a charade, very far from the idea of shared knowledge and experience. I'm taking a break and will come back only if things get better. ▲ Collapse
| | | | lien
Niederlande
Local time: 11:51
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
| The proz community with warts and all :) | Jan 5, 2004 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
...the behaviour of certain people. Not always because they were attacking me or another contributor but because they were using forcing techniques to get their answer accepted, at times even when it was patently wrong. The dogmatic attitudes of some contributors and their self-assuredness are quite amazing !
Chris
They are laughed at high and low throughout the language pair. Is it not funny to see by the answers and the comments how some people think high of themselves ?
I only get angry when they want to make of proz an elitist circle according to theirs standards.
There are things people do not like on proz, but think about what it brings. Not to mention the possibility to meet some great minds and like-minded people, to have fun, to train your little grey cells. Doesn't proz make you feel you are part of something where you can talk about what you do to people who understand ?
Often I learn more about language and translation in the various comments and debats on a question than the answer in itself.
I think people take too seriously proz, it is like in life, you take what you like and let the rest. Proz regulates itself, really.
Doesn't all these reactions on about the same subject lately show how the site is popular ?
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 11:51
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Re: lien's comments | Jan 5, 2004 |
lien wrote:
I think people take too seriously proz, it is like in life, you take what you like and let the rest. Proz regulates itself, really.
Thanks for your comments, lien. I agree that some people take it far too seriously, but not that it regulates itself - on the contrary, it's getting steadily worse on the French and German sites.
lien wrote:
Doesn't all these reactions on about the same subject lately show how the site is popular ?
Yes - but that doesn't justify a "laisser-faire" attitude. Personally I love it, and that is precisely why I want to preserve it in a way in which I can continue to enjoy it.
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 11:51
Französisch > Englisch
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| AND WHAT ABOUT THE INNOCENT VICTIMS? | Jan 5, 2004 |
Whilst I take Lien's point, I feel a little bit sorry for those who ask questions without knowing or understanding the politics and who fondly go away believing some of the things they are told. Why should they be expected to guess the many levels of responses going on? I agree with Ian that it can be fun to go prozing and it is in a good cause, as a general rule. The real question is what can be done to stop clqiues forming and the general nastiness that results. My suggestion would be to chang... See more Whilst I take Lien's point, I feel a little bit sorry for those who ask questions without knowing or understanding the politics and who fondly go away believing some of the things they are told. Why should they be expected to guess the many levels of responses going on? I agree with Ian that it can be fun to go prozing and it is in a good cause, as a general rule. The real question is what can be done to stop clqiues forming and the general nastiness that results. My suggestion would be to change the system and do away with Proz points altogether. It would probably be quite a shock to see how fast some people would abandon the site if they had nothing to 'gain'. This would also mean changes in the bidding system.
Obviously, I'm biased because points are academic to me but it seems the only logical solution left to be drawn.... ▲ Collapse
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Steffen Walter 
Deutschland
Local time: 11:51
Mitglied (2002)
Englisch > Deutsch
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| Points race vs KudoZ leader board | Jan 5, 2004 |
Hi Ian and all,
I think that quite many a personal attack or non-factual/non-linguistic remark seen in certain KudoZ pairs can be attributed to the point-grabbing (and IMO overly competitive) attitude some people develop(ed). Without calling names, you might all know that I mean members trying to collect as many points as possible without taking the slightest trouble to come up with a well-founded/researched answer, with the only intention to rank top on the KudoZ leader board. Howe... See more Hi Ian and all,
I think that quite many a personal attack or non-factual/non-linguistic remark seen in certain KudoZ pairs can be attributed to the point-grabbing (and IMO overly competitive) attitude some people develop(ed). Without calling names, you might all know that I mean members trying to collect as many points as possible without taking the slightest trouble to come up with a well-founded/researched answer, with the only intention to rank top on the KudoZ leader board. However, that does not mean that I would do away with the entire points system.
What I can say at this stage (although this is by no means an official announcement as things are still under development) is that, as one task to be completed in 2004, the KudoZ leader board will undergo some changes, putting more emphasis on a) points acquired for answers to "pro" questions (which should IMHO be the only basis for the ranking) and b) more recent/shorter time periods (e.g. displaying points acquired in the last [three] month[s] more prominently compared to the "Eternal Hall of Fame"). This should encourage new members and "old hands" alike to continue with their contributions, in the interest of the entire community (IIRC Gareth [MacMillan] touched upon this in a different thread).
A happy new year to all,
Steffen
[Edited at 2004-01-05 16:01] ▲ Collapse
| | | | lien
Niederlande
Local time: 11:51
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
Steffen Walter wrote:
...the KudoZ leader board will undergo some changes, putting more emphasis on a) points acquired for answers to "pro" questions (which should IMHO be the only basis for the ranking)
and 1) nobody will answer "easy" questions 2) everyone will post in the pro.
and b) more recent/shorter time periods (e.g. displaying points acquired in the last [three] month[s] more prominently compared to the "Eternal Hall of Fame").
There are already changes. The statistics are given per "the last month". It would be nice to have it "per week".
The total "Hall of Fame" has not interest whatsoever, because it all has to do with how long you are subscribed to proz. Of course if you have participated for four years you will have more points than someone who has started one year ago.
[Edited at 2004-01-06 11:48]
| | | | | Change the system? | Jan 5, 2004 |
Steffen,
I read what you say and agree with most of it, but how are you going to get the quality of answers up?
It states on the answer form to a question that we should not answer from personal experience, and two web references are required.
If someone is a professional in a field (qualified scientist, engineer or whatever) and the've got the tee-shirt from both countries, why shouldn't they answer from personal experience? A damn sight more reliable than some amateur with br... See more Steffen,
I read what you say and agree with most of it, but how are you going to get the quality of answers up?
It states on the answer form to a question that we should not answer from personal experience, and two web references are required.
If someone is a professional in a field (qualified scientist, engineer or whatever) and the've got the tee-shirt from both countries, why shouldn't they answer from personal experience? A damn sight more reliable than some amateur with broadband whizzing up a couple of googles.
Manipulation
I have often seen members of the so-called elite posting an "agree" peer comment containing an alternative answer, even though their suggested alternative answer had already been posted by someone else. However they have ignored the other answer completely. This stinks of victimisation, and the answerer who is ignored is usually a high scorer! Draw your own conlusions- but does it help the questioner??
I for one will be sad to see CMJ Trans pack it in. Even sadder, I know many more good people are fed up with it. There is a lot of e-mail exchange behind the scenes which are pointing to a ganeral disillusionment.
I won't be bothering so much either in the future - I've got plenty of people who ask my opinion directly on engineering stuff now because they don't trust the Kudos board. A thank you from them is worth a damn sight more to me than a few Kudos points.
Good to hear changes are coming but I think there's a confidence problem here so what I would like to see is the management asking it's members what THEY want.
It's called democracy (UKE)
Good luck to you Steffen, I think you're going to need it.
Gareth ▲ Collapse
| | | | | We're behind you | Jan 5, 2004 |
Ian wrote:
Resolution 1: An end to KudoZ as a popularity contest
Resolution 2: Constructive criticism and reaction
Resolution 3: An end to personal attacks
Lest there be any doubt, ProZ.com moderators and staff are *for* language solutions and *against* cronyism and point-grabbing. We're on your side!
Those who have not done so recently, please take a moment to refer to the KudoZ rules of Etiquette: http://www.proz.com/kudozrules
Contrary to what has been claimed in this thread, we do not tolerate violations of these rules. If you are aware of a violation, please point the offender to the KudoZ rules. If that does not result in a solution, bring the offensive action to the attention of the appropriate moderator.
Of course, rule enforcement is only the last resort. KudoZ culture comes from you, not from any "insiders" (though there may be people who *think* they are insiders, there are no insiders here--at least none ordained by me!) We want a community that is increasingly professional, open, and collaborative. All we can do is ask you to lead the way, and we'll support you as you go.
By the way, the data we have at our disposal suggests that while KudoZ feuds do arise (and pass), the overall value of the resource is increasing, not decreasing. And with modifications we have planned, we expect KudoZ to continue to improve. Still, we are always open to additional suggestions.
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lien
Niederlande
Local time: 11:51
Englisch > Französisch
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| They are not innocents | Jan 5, 2004 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
...I feel a little bit sorry for those who ask questions without knowing or understanding the politics and who fondly go away believing some of the things they are told...
Oh, we all started somewhen on Proz. When I come somewhere I do not know, I spend some time to watch and see before I do something. The more on the internet on lists and groups.
Why don't they ?
| | | | | equality of old and new members | Jan 6, 2004 |
b) more recent/shorter time periods (e.g. displaying points acquired in the last [three] month[s] more prominently compared to the "Eternal Hall of Fame"). This should encourage new members and "old hands" alike to continue with their contributions, in the interest of the entire community
[Edited at 2004-01-05 16:01]
I think that is a very good idea.
| | | | | Now is the time to act on these resolutions before it's too late | Jan 9, 2004 |
First, Happy New Year to everyone and thanks Ian for bringing up this subject.
Since, like many of you, I work by myself, I value the help I can get on Proz when, after I have done all my research, I still hesitate on the meaning of a word or a sentence or on the best way of translating it. I also appreciate the company, it makes my working environment feel less lonely.
So I find it very regrettable that some valuable (and courteous) players are thinking of withdrawing... See more First, Happy New Year to everyone and thanks Ian for bringing up this subject.
Since, like many of you, I work by myself, I value the help I can get on Proz when, after I have done all my research, I still hesitate on the meaning of a word or a sentence or on the best way of translating it. I also appreciate the company, it makes my working environment feel less lonely.
So I find it very regrettable that some valuable (and courteous) players are thinking of withdrawing from the site because of a few rotten apples.
I'm not sure things can improve dramatically no matter what changes are made (people are people) but it sure is worth a try.
The two suggestions made by Gareth would be a good start.
Perhaps if the rating system was changed to, say, a weekly basis, more people might stand a chance of seeing some reward for their efforts. As it is, the people at the top stay there- rather like a big shiny long service medal- doesn't prove their talent though IMO.
Another idea may be to rate according to the answers accepted as a ratio of answers offered- might make people think a bit harder before they answer just for the sake of it, or "to be seen to be there".
If someone gets 10 000 points out of 1 000 000 questions answered, it doesn't mean they are competent, it just means they have been members for a long time and/or that they answer a lot of questions (probably without thinking or doing much research). The opposite is true for someone who has 500 points for 501 questions answered.
I also like the cooling-off period suggested by lenkl.
I know that moderators and site staff are trying to make the Proz environment friendlier (I just noticed that one member whom I found despicable has been banned from the site).
Let's just hope that, unlike most New Year's resolutions, these resolutions will not become just a distant memory in a few months. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » A suggestion: three New Year’s Resolutions for KudoZ players | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 |
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