| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3] > | Abolishing Kudoz points Initiator des Themas: Colin Ryan (X)
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Heinrich Pesch 
Finnland
Local time: 16:13
Mitglied (2003)
Finnisch > Deutsch
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| Proz lives by it | Sep 30, 2010 |
The kudoz-system generates traffic to the site and that generates profit. So it is no use to suggest changes that would pull down traffic. Quality is not so important as money.
Regards
Heinrich
| | | | Inga Petkelyte
Portugal
Local time: 14:13
Litauisch > Portugiesisch
+ ...
Paula Borges wrote:
They are the reason why people share answers.
Absolutely disagree, sorry to be so frank with this. I can speak only for myself yet I don't think I'm so unique to be alone on this, but I NEVER answered because of points.
The truth is just opposite - I DID NOT answer on many occasions when I knew the exact term but it was so easy that the asker had to have a little bit of shame to put those questions on PRO level that I've subscribed to.
I very strongly support the idea of no-points in pursuance of sorting out the abusive "colleagues" yet I understand that's not going to happen.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnien und Herzegowina
Local time: 15:13
Mitglied (2009)
Englisch > Kroatisch
+ ...
If people are giving up KudoZ because of the system flaws, that will actually bring the traffic down.
[Edited at 2010-09-30 16:10 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 14:13
Mitglied (2008)
Italienisch > Englisch
| I have a better idea | Sep 30, 2010 |
ryancolm wrote:
- There are people who are "gaming" the Kudoz system, who will do anything for points and who in the process are filling the Kudoz archive with cr*p
- There are people who are abusing Kudoz in other ways, chiefly people who are not logged in and who post questions which are criticised for a variety of reasons
- There are people who seem to be using their 15-questions-a-day limit to get the peers on proz.com to do their work for them, by posting relatively easy terms; it is clear that at least sometimes, these people are translating out of their mother tongue or in any case in a pair with which they are unfamiliar.
- For every silly asker, there's a silly answerer, and often two or three. These questions, and answers, can be ignored of course, but when they are archived they bring the overall quality of Kudoz down.
I propose to wipe out these problems
I agree that there are a lot of silly people playing around in Kudoz, though probably not out of any machiavellian intent: they just have no clue as to how to translate even the simplest expressions, or they don't know how to use Google and they probably shouldn't be offering their services as translators.
It's not possible to wipe such people off the face of the earth, or off Proz.com, but there is an easy personal way to get them out of your face: don't answer any questions that don't interest you. Stay away. Do something else. Keep your own personal list of dumb people who are in the habit of asking stupid questions, and make sure you never offer them any help. I can't tell you how it pains me to see the *wrong answers* going into the glossary, but unless we go around individually assassinating the people who choose those wrong answers, we'll just have to put up with them.
I feel your rage, Ryan, but I fear that abolishing Kudoz points altogether as a way of eliminating duff answers/system abusers would be like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut or, if you prefer, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, cutting off your nose to spite your face, etc.
[Edited at 2010-09-30 17:15 GMT]
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Paula Borges
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 14:13
Mitglied (2010)
Englisch > Portugiesisch
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| Not everyone, of course | Sep 30, 2010 |
Inga Petkelyte wrote:
Paula Borges wrote:
They are the reason why people share answers.
Absolutely disagree, sorry to be so frank with this. I can speak only for myself yet I don't think I'm so unique to be alone on this, but I NEVER answered because of points.
The truth is just opposite - I DID NOT answer on many occasions when I knew the exact term but it was so easy that the asker had to have a little bit of shame to put those questions on PRO level that I've subscribed to.
I very strongly support the idea of no-points in pursuance of sorting out the abusive "colleagues" yet I understand that's not going to happen.
Not everyone, of course. I only answer something if I already know it or have researched before, but most people will spend their time researching because of points of course, nothing wrong with that either.
[Edited at 2010-09-30 17:29 GMT]
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 14:13
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
In stillem Gedenken
InfoMarex wrote:
Colm,
In order to avoid abuses to the Kudos points system, which I personally believe is VERY useful, might I suggest that:
1.
Questions to KudoZ be limited at 2 per day per translator.
2.
Only members of ProZ who are logged in be allowed post [and preferably, from paying members only].
3.
Only questions be asked about translation INTO one's mother tongue.
It would be wrong to abolish the laws of the land, simply because some criminals break the law.
It would be wrong to abolish Kudos points, simply because some "clever" translators abuse the system which is for the benefit of us all.
My tuppenceworth on a Thursday morning.
Kind regards,
Michael J McCann
InfoMarex
When I first joined Proz, I got to know many people 'virtually' via Kudoz. In those days and in my language pair it was almost like Twitter is now. People would sign in early and then later say "G'night all".
This led me to venture forth to attending Proz meetings and to get to know people for real. More than a few have become good personal friends.
By keeping an eye on what suggestions people have made on Kudoz, I also learned who I thought I could respect professionally. This in turn led to fruitful cooperation.
To me, Kudoz was the door-opener to networking on Proz.com and that was a door that I very much appreciated passing through.
To be truthful, I must confess that I have not "KudoZed" too much recently. But if some of the aforementioned claims are indeed applicable, then I would suggest that closer attention be paid to moderating Kudoz, rather than - shall we say "over-heavily" moderating forum discussions. Kudoz proposals are linguistic suggestions within a tighter and highly- targeted context, while forums are discussions in a targeted - but inevitably wider - context and should, in my opinion, offer at least some scope for freedom of expression.
I think that abolishing Kudoz points would dig heavily at the very core of Proz and its expansion.
End of story.
Chris
| | | | Gina W
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 09:13
Mitglied (2003)
Französisch > Englisch
| I'm also against abolishing KudoZ points | Sep 30, 2010 |
Hugo wrote:
-Conclusion: as everything, the system has its imperfections, but by and large it benefits everybody, it was and is a gutsy and widely successful idea from the Proz managers, it is morally sound and (caution, the following statement may offend some people) it is....it is... it is...fun!!!
I am ok, you are ok 
This sums it up pretty well.
| | | | | About abolishing Kudoz points... | Sep 30, 2010 |
ryancolm wrote:
The hot topics in the forum about Proz.com these days all appear to be about Kudoz.
In brief:
- There are people who are "gaming" the Kudoz system, who will do anything for points and who in the process are filling the Kudoz archive with cr*p
- There are people who are abusing Kudoz in other ways, chiefly people who are not logged in and who post questions which are criticised for a variety of reasons
- There are people who seem to be using their 15-questions-a-day limit to get the peers on proz.com to do their work for them, by posting relatively easy terms; it is clear that at least sometimes, these people are translating out of their mother tongue or in any case in a pair with which they are unfamiliar.
- For every silly asker, there's a silly answerer, and often two or three. These questions, and answers, can be ignored of course, but when they are archived they bring the overall quality of Kudoz down.
I propose to wipe out these problems at a stroke by simply abolishing Kudoz points. While there are answerers who do it simply out of the goodness of their hearts, there are others whose behaviour is entirely points-driven.
With no points, those who abuse Kudoz by asking silly questions can be safely ignored, and they will eventually disappear. There is no incentive to be got in answering such questions, so the points-hunters will not waste their time.
With no points, those who abuse Kudoz by offering silly answers will no longer have a reason to do so, and they will eventually disappear as well.
The problem that immediately springs to mind is: what happens to the Kudoz points that we have already earned? In many cases they have been honestly earned, and obviously this must be recognised.
I welcome your suggestions and input on this.
Do you think I will pay a ProZ mebership, if I can only make two questions a day?
Then, I am sorry but I have to say you are wrong. And as it is up to the answerer to decide if he/she will answer or not, I do not see the point.
I am not a compulsive asker (I answer more as I ask), neither a compulsive answerer (I try to give precise answers), but one time to be able to ask a lot of questions in one night solved me a very urgent job I should have done next morning. This is what Kudoz points are for. To give prestige back to reliable and willing to help translators. And as it is up to the askers to give points or to close the question without giving any point, I do not see the point.
It is true that some answers of points collectors (and some questions too) are quite silly, but the fools are the ones who answer silly questions or assign points to silly answers. Compulsive answerers as compulsive askers are well known from the rest of Proz members and we are able not to give points at all to compulsive askers, as not to answer compulsive askers (as to hide many of them). So, where is the problem?
If we do not answer to compulsive askers and do not assign points to compulsive answerers that give silly answers, they will bore ad nauseam and go. To keep the kudoz system clean is in our hands and it is our duty. If we do not so, then we should stick to the consequences...
Edited:
And by the way, for those who do not like this kudoz system they are other means to ask questions like translators mailing lists. I belong myself to some of such lists and use them some times, but I still prefer the Kudoz system due to his immediacy.
[Edited at 2010-10-01 09:30 GMT]
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Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 14:13
Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Polnisch
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SITE LOCALIZER | Isn't it a good thing? | Sep 30, 2010 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
The kudoz-system generates traffic to the site and that generates profit. So it is no use to suggest changes that would pull down traffic. Quality is not so important as money.
Regards
Heinrich
Certainly Kudoz system generates both site and traffic. On the other hand the very same traffic goes to our profiles what from time to time means more money to us.
For instance from what I see in my profile's statistics more than 50% hits comes from Google for keywords related to answered Kudoz questions. It seldom converts to new clients but from time to time yes.
So I believe that we all in one way or another benefit from Kudoz.
Best Regards
Stanislaw
| | | | | not a hope in hell | Sep 30, 2010 |
Unfortunately..
I agree entirely that pointz are a waste of time - you can't even spend them - but since this site and its traffic are based on them, go find another violin to p*** into.
Trying to change the system is hitting your head against a brick wall.
I agree with you, Ryan, that the whole thing is wrong but nobody is going to do anything about it. If I remember rightly, the proposal is not new and the frustrations of seeing reason defeated are also a familiar phen... See more Unfortunately..
I agree entirely that pointz are a waste of time - you can't even spend them - but since this site and its traffic are based on them, go find another violin to p*** into.
Trying to change the system is hitting your head against a brick wall.
I agree with you, Ryan, that the whole thing is wrong but nobody is going to do anything about it. If I remember rightly, the proposal is not new and the frustrations of seeing reason defeated are also a familiar phenomenon.
I will not condemn this site because it has some upsides but it is also regularly abused by lazy and incompetent askers who are bringing the profession down. This is not a problem for site management, which has other interests - primarily pecuniary. And he who pays the piper calls the tune....
I wish things were otherwise but they ain't !
PS I also agree with Charlie that we ought to be able to call the sinners truly to task - but there again, not a snowball's chance in hell.
[Edited at 2010-09-30 19:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Oliver Walter
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 14:13
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| Mixed agree/disagree | Sep 30, 2010 |
InfoMarex wrote:
1.
Questions to KudoZ be limited at 2 per day per translator.
No, that is far too few. If there is a limit (I think it's 15 at present) it should be at least 8. I would not consider that asking that number of questions, that represent real problems during a translation, is an abuse.
2.
Only members of ProZ who are logged in be allowed post [and preferably, from paying members only].
That seems sensible to me, though I suppose there are good arguments the other way.
3.
Only questions be asked about translation INTO one's mother tongue.
Again superficially attractive but it won't, for example, prevent people from translating out of their mother tongue, and asking such questions would help them to write a better (still imperfect) translation than otherwise.
Oliver
| | | | | My ideal site | Oct 1, 2010 |
I would prefer a less traffic-orientated and more elitist site but understand the economic imperatives of those running ProZ. I prefer the more relaxed system of the word reference forum and find the points system a bit juvenile. But then I also don't like the blueboard very much either and the long list of dubious 5/5s. I would prefer an optional agency-Proz charter with agencies agreeing to respect it.
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| About abolishing Kudoz points | Oct 1, 2010 |
I think this may be my second forum post since... 2007? I ENJOY answering questions on what is called the Kudoz -there is no other place where to answer to the questions here as far as I know, so I'm not interested in points frankly. Only tried using them once but usually the offers of jobs are for 'members only'. As for a forum I find Wordreference very useful, with explanations for many countries and usually post there too.
On the other hand I have used the glossary here a couple of time... See more I think this may be my second forum post since... 2007? I ENJOY answering questions on what is called the Kudoz -there is no other place where to answer to the questions here as far as I know, so I'm not interested in points frankly. Only tried using them once but usually the offers of jobs are for 'members only'. As for a forum I find Wordreference very useful, with explanations for many countries and usually post there too.
On the other hand I have used the glossary here a couple of times and it has helped a lot.
So, what DOES worry me is that I have recently found MEMBERS that answer and who once checked their studies or titles are none... have only been around for a month -and are MEMBERS, or even some that have been for a long time and have never ever answered anybody's plea for help on the kudoz, ... who is in charge of accepting the 'members'? Some answer with not very reliable answers, not that mine are always perfect but I do try my best to get the nearest posible answer as the Spanish of Spain -there are many diferences in this language with other Spanish speaking countries by the way.
So according to the publicity I receive, if I become a 'member', I'll be more eligible for jobs... whether I know or not about translation!
Sorry, it is not only the forum Kudoz I would criticize as you can see... the pay and you appear as blue/member translator bugs me!
I hope I'm not banned after this letting off steam! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Colin Ryan (X)
Local time: 15:13
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | You're a mind-reader | Oct 1, 2010 |
NR_Stedman wrote:
I would prefer a less traffic-orientated and more elitist site but understand the economic imperatives of those running ProZ. I prefer the more relaxed system of the word reference forum and find the points system a bit juvenile. But then I also don't like the blueboard very much either and the long list of dubious 5/5s. I would prefer an optional agency-Proz charter with agencies agreeing to respect it.
I've grown to entirely distrust the blue board. A couple of agencies which I know for a fact are treating their freelances like dirt have been getting 5/5 for years now. This is why I haven't enabled WWA (although several people have asked me to do so so they can "recommend" me). If the blue board can't be trusted, how can WWA be trusted? In the end, I'm just like any other sole trader: how I deal with my client directly is what makes me stand out from the competition. Or not.
| | | | imatahan
Brasilien
Local time: 11:13
Englisch > Portugiesisch
+ ...
| I wouldn't abolish Kudoz points. | Oct 1, 2010 |
I've been almost absent from answering lately, because of a lot of work and travelling.
I still think Kudoz points give a good idea of the strongest areas of a translator.
Also, when I make a question, I've researched it before and had no more ways of solving its translation but Kudoz... Because Kudoz means (or I think it had the intention of being) that you're discussing your doubts with colleagues, in order to find the best way of translating a word, an expression, a ... See more I've been almost absent from answering lately, because of a lot of work and travelling.
I still think Kudoz points give a good idea of the strongest areas of a translator.
Also, when I make a question, I've researched it before and had no more ways of solving its translation but Kudoz... Because Kudoz means (or I think it had the intention of being) that you're discussing your doubts with colleagues, in order to find the best way of translating a word, an expression, a phrase. It helps a lot many of us.
Yes, we have point collectors, no doubt. But if they give you good answers, why should we be worried about s/he has nothing to do or not? That's not our business.
Sometimes I have observed that some people contract to do translations in areas they don't have the slightest idea of the common specific/technical words of it. And after half a dozen of questions, when it becomes evident, I simply stop answering them. I'd like to ask: why did you accept to do this translation? But it wouldn't be polite.
I don't answer the simplest silly ones too.
Well, I don't see any reason for abolishing Kudoz points.
I think the moderators could filter the questions, as they already do, but aiming to select these silly ones.
Or we may establish levels of consultations/questions (low, medium, high, technical). That could be a solution. ▲ Collapse
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