| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4] > | Who Needs The Natives II: Advertising copy Initiator des Themas: IanW (X)
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Yolande Haneder (X) 
Local time: 23:55
Deutsch > Französisch
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RobinB wrote:
If by slang, you mean the demotic, I wouldn't translate such a document in the first place, because apart from anything else, I don't "have to". I'm not sure I'd even attempt a translation of the local dialect where I live (Rhoihess). But if you mean a subject area document that contains Austrianisms rather than standard German, I do that frequently. Same goes for Swiss German. And why not? I'm not quite sure if I see your point..
I don't think you will find a source document with the slang as the one I hear here because it is oral or not written.
The remaining differences are mostly to be explained in books.
I am just saying that the best possible team would be a native and a non native sitting together and making the translation. If it is not possible, we should help each other and not shout at each other because of some Kudoz questions and who would be answering best.
I do not have the feeling for the german language.
A couple of days ago my husband a german native speaker sent me the following link and told me the translation is horrible:
http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/default_de.asp?belgeno=897
I do not have the faculty to say what it is found to be a bad translation for a german native so I will leave it.
The non native do not have the ability to see their translation is bad so one should not jump at them in the kudoz.
The kudoz is also for people learning or for people like me checking a translated sentence without having the time to send the translation to an editor.
I do not mean to steal your job, but is it so really bad that I keep asking between two foreign language or trying to help for instance a german speaker understanding the source text (which help has oftens been used for by a native speaker to give a better answer).
Don't flame on us because I am mispelling or because I answered question in the french to german kudoz. I mean to help and if the translator is a native speaker he sure should know what to pick.
[Edited at 2005-10-10 13:44]
| | | | | Wenn man keine Ahnung hat, einfach mal... | Oct 10, 2005 |
The non native do not have the ability to see their translation is bad so one should not jump at them in the kudoz.
Well, my view is: If you are answering a KudoZ question and you don't know what the heck you are writing, then don't. Very simple.
Reminds me of a popular German expression, which I am hinting at in the subject line. I've had to learn it and I guess that means everybody else can learn it, too.
| | | | | I thought I was the only one squirming in my seat... | Oct 10, 2005 |
Thank you, Francis Lee.
[quote]Francis Lee wrote:
a)So Yolande has "been living for 3 years in London" but at the same time has "been living for more than 6 years in german speaking countries"
This implies that you CURRENTLY live in London AND in Austria/Germany. An elementary grammatical mistake, there.
b) Indeed, the above quote and the rest of your comments (not to mention your profile page!) make it quite clear that you in are no position whatsoever to translate into English (which you have evidently done in the past)
c) Do you think that spending three years in England and passing a degree there qualify you as a native-speaker/ a competent writer of English copy?
[Edited at 2005-10-10 13:53]
| | | | Yolande Haneder (X)
Local time: 23:55
Deutsch > Französisch
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[quote]JL Baker wrote:
Thank you, Francis Lee.
Francis Lee wrote:
a)So Yolande has "been living for 3 years in London" but at the same time has "been living for more than 6 years in german speaking countries"
This implies that you CURRENTLY live in London AND in Austria/Germany. An elementary grammatical mistake, there.
b) Indeed, the above quote and the rest of your comments (not to mention your profile page!) make it quite clear that you in are no position whatsoever to translate into English (which you have evidently done in the past)
c) Do you think that spending three years in England and passing a degree there qualify you as a native-speaker/ a competent writer of English copy?
[Edited at 2005-10-10 13:53]
OK leave it.
1. You pass my point. I mean stop firing at the non native, what you keep doing.
2. I don't care about what one think of my english at proz (or my profile).
From Proz I only get contact from agencies looking for french translators (and don't contact me once they get to my homepage and see I am working as an agency). Who is looking for my profile? ONLY THE COMPETITION. I did translate into english and will still do it, but not for the clients of the agency (who are paying me more than here and allow me to send jobs to qualified translated (english mother tongue)).
Someday I will take somebody over to me BUT IT WON'T BE SOMEBODY SO INTOLERANT. Until then I have time to know who I like or not.
3.I didn't say that because of my degree I had a native english level. I will never and don't care. I am happy with what I am earning so far and the feedbacks of my clients are wonderful (and no I am not going to write any reference on my homepage just for the competition to contact my clients and say I am not an english speaker).
4.I am working for my clients, how well I speak english is irrelevant because my clients are not in english speaking countries and they do not expect me to do the translation.
I am french, proud of being french and will never try to be english or austrian.
LEAVE ME ALONE.
----> You don't need to answer or show me the mistakes of this answer. I think you have my point, I have nothing more to say and I won't answer any further messages about this topic.
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TonyTK
Deutsch > Englisch
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| I'd love to squirm too, | Oct 10, 2005 |
but my bum's too big (either that, or my chair's too small).
The points Yolande made have been adequately addressed by others, but I'm not altogether happy with the comments being directed at her English skills - particularly as she doesn't claim to be able to translate into English (at least as far as I can see).
Puzzled in the Palatinate
[Edited at 2005-10-10 19:49]
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spanien
Local time: 23:55
Spanisch > Englisch
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| who needs the natives round 2 | Oct 10, 2005 |
Ian said:
"....although I have met non-natives who write extraordinarily good formal English, I’ve never met one who can produce a sparkling piece of advertising copy. And that, in a nutshell, is my point."
Round 1 on this subject was one of the most interesting posts in the Proz forum...this holds promise too:-)
I absolutely agree with Ian. I have seen non-natives do technical translations/write technical papers to an extremely high standard (maybe requ... See more Ian said:
"....although I have met non-natives who write extraordinarily good formal English, I’ve never met one who can produce a sparkling piece of advertising copy. And that, in a nutshell, is my point."
Round 1 on this subject was one of the most interesting posts in the Proz forum...this holds promise too:-)
I absolutely agree with Ian. I have seen non-natives do technical translations/write technical papers to an extremely high standard (maybe requiring a few corrections to prepositions but not much more) - there is definitely a strong case for field-expert non-natives doing translations that only need minor linguistic editing by a native.
Not so advertising copy or any other kind of copy where linguistic style must impress. For example, websites (Spain is rife with atrociously translated websites....they simply make one's stomach turn).
I have lived in Spain for about 17 years on and off (mostly on)and wouldn't dream of doing a professional translation to Spanish.
Even when it comes to EN, I am very conscious of insidious source influences, and being a native EN speaker gives me the confidence to remove that influence (although obviously, it's a very imperceptible influence, so I can't claim 100% succes for something so subjective). Lack of language confidence/knowledge results in literal translations that read badly.
As someone pointed out, rather than take a black-and-white stand on who of the natives and non-natives can translate what, it would be more practical to define text types and the kind of skills required:
e.g. in my opinion, a non-native doctor-translator is likely to produce a better standard medical translation than a native non-expert.
[Edited at 2005-10-10 15:31] ▲ Collapse
| | | | JackieMcC
Local time: 23:55
Französisch > Englisch
| I agree - but is Proz an exception? | Oct 10, 2005 |
I totally agree with Ian. I am constantly amazed by the number of translators on Proz who offer their services for translations into non-native languages. Elsewhere (translators’ associations, translation courses, in-house translations departments I have worked in, agencies I work with) there seems to be a universally accepted unwritten rule that – excepting rare languages and save for some very rare exceptions – professional translators only translate into their native language.
... See more I totally agree with Ian. I am constantly amazed by the number of translators on Proz who offer their services for translations into non-native languages. Elsewhere (translators’ associations, translation courses, in-house translations departments I have worked in, agencies I work with) there seems to be a universally accepted unwritten rule that – excepting rare languages and save for some very rare exceptions – professional translators only translate into their native language.
This is what I always explain to clients who ask me to translate into French. I know for a fact that I can write French as well as or better than the average French person. I also know for a fact that I cannot produce an English to French translation as good as anything a competent professional native French translator could produce. There is a huge difference between the two.
To my mind, there is also a big difference between taking part in discussions / forums or giving friendly help or advice in your non-native language, and offering your professional services to translate into that language for a fee.
In response to one of Yolande’s messages, of course professional translators also need to have a thorough understanding of the source language (their non-native language). The best translators I know have all spent many years living and working in the country of their source language. The fact that some *translators* do not have a sufficient grasp of the source language cannot be used as a justification for translations by non-native translators.
Again, of course professional translators need to have a thorough knowledge of the subject matter they are translating, be it marketing, legal, medical or whatever. I agree with Lia that “a non-native doctor-translator is likely to produce a better standard medical translation than a native non-expert”
but if we are talking about translations into English there are definitely plenty of native doctor-translators around. In an equivalent situation I personally would prefer not to compromise on quality/produce something which could give the client a poor impression of my ability as a translator in general (translations into my native language) and to decline the job, advising the client to find a native expert in the field. We all need to know our limitations!
I hope I have not offended anyone here - this is not about arrogance, elitism or attacking anyone in particular, to my mind it is about professionalism.
Jackie ▲ Collapse
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 23:55
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| OK, time to get back to the issue | Oct 10, 2005 |
[quote]TonyTK wrote:
... but I'm not altogether happy with the comments being directed at [Yolande's] English skills - particular as she doesn't claim to be able to translate into English (at least as far as I can see).
The evidence would seem to suggest otherwise:
- "have had the education to put it in english ... check the translations I get from english native translators"
- "I did translate into english and will still do it,"
I'm certainly not out to victimize individuals just for the sake of it. Sorry if I've offended. I originally intended to restrict my input here to my general views on the issue, and will now concentrate on doing that ...
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SirReaL
Deutschland
Local time: 23:55
Englisch > Russisch
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| What keeps amazing me | Oct 10, 2005 |
is how many non-native speakers of English claim to translate into English yet present a profile page that contains grammar and spelling mistakes (i.e. hasn't been proofread, let alone edited for style)
| | | | | Is translating advertising copy always worthwhile? | Oct 10, 2005 |
I find it quite perverse that a company will spend a lot of money having fancy brochures and high-flying advertising copy produced by advertising specialists and then they go and send it to a translator – be they native or non-native – and expect the same sort of quality with the same witty phrases and double meanings at a fraction of the original cost. The translator may have to agonise for ages trying to find the right words to express a nuance, and even at maximum rates, this type of work... See more I find it quite perverse that a company will spend a lot of money having fancy brochures and high-flying advertising copy produced by advertising specialists and then they go and send it to a translator – be they native or non-native – and expect the same sort of quality with the same witty phrases and double meanings at a fraction of the original cost. The translator may have to agonise for ages trying to find the right words to express a nuance, and even at maximum rates, this type of work is often not worthwhile paywise. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 23:55
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| Who Needs The Natives II: Advertising copy | Oct 10, 2005 |
Gillian Scheibelein wrote:
The translator may have to agonise for ages trying to find the right words to express a nuance, and even at maximum rates, this type of work is often not worthwhile paywise.
But if you can explain this so well to us, why can't you do so to your customers? Some customers clearly are willing to pay high prices for a choice handful of words in the source text, along with the fancy images and expensive printing costs, so why assume that they will suddenly mutate into scrooges when it comes to the translation stage? Nor do I believe, personally, that customers are incapable of understanding why producing effective advertising copy for the UK or US is not simply a matter of Typing It Out In English.
The problem is the translation industry itself. Incredibly unimaginative when it comes to selling value. Some translators churn out a rough draft of an advertising text on the grounds that the translation should serve as the basis for another professional copywriter's efforts; there is a case for doing that, admittedly, but many of these translators might actually be first-class copywriters in their own right. Others spend three hours dreaming up a four-word slogan at 0.09 euros a word - a classic case of self-exploitation.
I do a small amount of advertising copy, and I've always seen it as a service to customers who send me the large volumes of technical stuff that pay the bills. It's a chance to demonstrate what the grey cells are capable of more than anything else, and the payment is nominal. The ad pros here are probably cursing me now for saying this. But recently, after translating four snappy titles that together (and with sub-headers) didn't exceed my minimum fee, I got fed up and decided to ask for my minimum fee for each title. That probably came to about four euros per word, or 120 euros for a morning's work - not a fortune, but hardly nominal.
As I say, I don't think of advertising work as my bread and butter, but if I did, I'd be presenting my services quite differently, and I'd probably start by deleting all references to "translation".
Marc
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Textklick
Local time: 22:55
Deutsch > Englisch
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In stillem Gedenken | If it doesn't sell, it's not creative | Oct 10, 2005 |
tectranslate wrote:
The non native do not have the ability to see their translation is bad so one should not jump at them in the kudoz.
Well, my view is: If you are answering a KudoZ question and you don't know what the heck you are writing, then don't. Very simple.
Reminds me of a popular German expression, which I am hinting at in the subject line. I've had to learn it and I guess that means everybody else can learn it, too.
If I am invited to do advertising jobs, I invariably ask how much freedom I am to be allowed.
If the answer is "none", then I don't bother. It's just not worth the hassle.
Similarly, I have rejected jobs simply because IMO the company required a very different strategy in their source text advertising (or in plainspeak, it made your dentures rattle). Might sound arrogant, but that's not the case. Just imagine, how much time would you want to waste listening to some widget manufacturer overseas saying "But can you really say that in English"?
The bottom line is that, in advertising, there is no such thing as 'correct' translation. It requires adaptation, if it is going to work. The question needs to be addressed: "Will this work, and if so WHY"?
I have been given great help on occasion by some non-native peers in other areas of tricky terminology and indeed I take my hat off to their outstanding ability and kindness. All the more reason then to cringe with non-hostile, sympathetic and yet awesome embarrassment when I see some of the unspeakable drivel that is put forward in the advertising field. Put forward by those who may well be highly literate and articulate, but are simply not trained in that discipline (nor subjected to the daily [mis]use of English which a resident native is subjected to).
As Ben succinctly puts it, if you can't swim, keep out of the water.
And remember that your 'poetry' is on display in the locker room (aka public domain...).
Chris
(Oh dear. This ad was not supposed to be a double-page spread, but consider the impact
[Edited at 2005-10-10 18:13]
| | | | Williamson
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 22:55
Flämisch > Englisch
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| The external boxing match | Oct 10, 2005 |
The native, non-native issue, which has been repeated for the umpteenth time on this site, reminds of me of a session of the House of Commons.
The advocates of native (the natives themselves), shout "hear", "hear" and the opponents of translating into a a language which is not the mother-tongue of the translator: "boo" :The eternal boxing-match between natives and non-natives.
The advocates of nativeness seem to forget that education, environment etc. play an important role in... See more The native, non-native issue, which has been repeated for the umpteenth time on this site, reminds of me of a session of the House of Commons.
The advocates of native (the natives themselves), shout "hear", "hear" and the opponents of translating into a a language which is not the mother-tongue of the translator: "boo" :The eternal boxing-match between natives and non-natives.
The advocates of nativeness seem to forget that education, environment etc. play an important role in determining the quality of the translation.
Is their level at par with that of say The Economist, the BBC...? What about American-English?
Isn't the proof of the pudding the eating?
I, non-native, have sinned severely and translated from German (Nein, nicht meine Muttersprache)into English (not my native tongue either)for a German consulting-firm, situated in Müllheim-an der-Ruhr. A British (native)speaker went through the translation with a fine tooth-comb and found it to be all-right.
Doesn't the quality of the translation depend upon the education, the background and the number of years'experience a person has translating into a language, which is not his mother-tongue? Isn't translation a learning curve?
The nativeness point of view only takes into account linguistic skills at a certain moment in time.
When I worked as an in-house, one of my former colleagues had been translating into amongst others English for about 30 years.
I gather that when he retired his translation skills where a lot better than when he became a translator. If he had never sinned, he would not have become so good.
To what extent does the nativeness point of view holds water in case of translators, who literally have grown up with one foot in one linguistic territory and another feet in the other linguistic territory.
In the case of interpreting, it holds water a bit more, because you can not fall back on resources and unless very well-trained some words do not boil up at the speed they should if you interpret into a language which is not your mother-tongue.
This is a site where to some extend we are all competitors and most of us are individualists. Look how good "I", the native am and look how "bad" the non-natives are. It's a never-ending story.
Where did I learn "people, service, profit" (a company with the tag "The World on Time") and the importance of teamwork?
Of course, there is no such thing as having your translation revised by a native expert?
[Edited at 2005-10-10 18:39] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 22:55
Deutsch > Englisch
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In stillem Gedenken | Outta left field | Oct 10, 2005 |
Williamson wrote:
The native, non-native issue, which has been repeated for the umpteenth time on this site, reminds of me of a session of the House of Commons....
[Edited at 2005-10-10 18:33]
Madame Speaker, I should like to make it clear to my Rt. Hon. colleague that, whilst I understand the points he makes, to say nothing of agreeing with some of them,(for example, [in general terms] "Of course, there is no such thing as having your translation revised by a native expert?), the House is presently discussing the matter of advertising copy. I respectfully submit that you issue a call to order
[Edited at 2005-10-10 19:13]
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