| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2] | attitude of other users Initiator des Themas: Mary Murata
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Andy Watkinson 
Spanien
Local time: 04:31
Mitglied
Katalanisch > Englisch
+ ...
gad wrote:
"Thank you so much for starting this thread, btw. I'm sick and tired of reading threads here on this forum that have to do with how some people have such nerve posting certain questions, and also such posts are often coupled with speculation about how those people got certain jobs in the first place. Honestly, this makes it clear that the person who is resenting the other person asking questions is simply resenting the fact that the asker has work - and perhaps if they focused m... See more gad wrote:
"Thank you so much for starting this thread, btw. I'm sick and tired of reading threads here on this forum that have to do with how some people have such nerve posting certain questions, and also such posts are often coupled with speculation about how those people got certain jobs in the first place. Honestly, this makes it clear that the person who is resenting the other person asking questions is simply resenting the fact that the asker has work - and perhaps if they focused more on marketing instead of writing complaining threads ad nauseum, then the problem would indeed be solved."
gad, I think it would be difficult to be more mistaken.
You are bothered by people wondering how others have the "nerve posting certain questions".
Well, I do. Or are you asking me to believe that the person who claims to be "experienced" in international transport doesn't know what CIF/FOB/ ex-works means?
In my opinion, it's an insult to everyone's intelligence to even ask a question like this, unless your admit up front that you're a beginner, just curious....etc...
People who read the profile of an asker who claims to have a good knowledge of corporate/financial matters but clearly doesnt't know the difference between "capital subscribed" and "fully paid up" is not a genuine translator. Come on......
Please.
It is obvious that fellow colleagues are going to be more than a little suspicious about this person's qualifications for the job at hand. And I would be the first to "speculate" as to how they won it in the first place - obviously on price.
And the answerers on ProZ then do the job for him/her.
And, as you seem to think that these "objectors" are in some way resentful because they don't have sufficient work, I've been on ProZ for about 4/5 years and never even looked at the jobs section, let alone offered a quote.
If you look a bit more closely I think you'll find that the "objectors" have more than enough work to be getting along with, thank you.
Cheers,
Andy ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Two in the morning, short of sleep, deadline in six hours... | Feb 14, 2006 |
Of course professional translators should never get into a situation like that.
In a perfect world, clients would come just when you need a job, and let you have a reasonable deadline too. Then they would leave you in peace to get on with it. In practice, everyone along their pipeline is delayed except the printer waiting for your translation... and you're trying to do the impossible. Then another client rings and wants 50 words added to the job you finished last week... And another... See more Of course professional translators should never get into a situation like that.
In a perfect world, clients would come just when you need a job, and let you have a reasonable deadline too. Then they would leave you in peace to get on with it. In practice, everyone along their pipeline is delayed except the printer waiting for your translation... and you're trying to do the impossible. Then another client rings and wants 50 words added to the job you finished last week... And another wants to book you, etc. etc.
I 'turn off' KudoZ when I'm too busy, then I don't get irritated over questions I can't answer for whatever reason.
I have to admit I'm one of those people who ask the stupid questions at times. My mind gets blocked, and I simply have to find a solution - don't we all! So here is a special tribute to the colleagues who have bailed me out every time. We seem to keep a friendly tone in my language pairs, and then it's easy to stay on good terms.
At other times there is mercifully time for a breather, and KudoZ is a great way to spend a coffee break.
Most people on this site are impressively kind and helpful, so just ignore the others.
Try to keep your bad days to yourselves, ot write a funny story about them in a forum. A guy called Edwal survived a day interpreting some months ago, and I still thank my lucky stars it wasn't me!!! http://www.proz.com/post/208534#208534 That kind of thing gets it out of your system and Edwal's story is an inspiration.
Well, folks, happy translating!
[Edited at 2006-02-14 08:57] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 05:31
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
| A possible misunderstanding | Feb 14, 2006 |
Dear Mary,
The problem may lie in the fact that the definitions of "pro" vs. "non-pro" changed several months ago. Before, there was "pro" vs. "easy" division, and, as far as I see, many ProZians still stick to it and evaluate questions on this scale.
Henry provided a detailed explanation on how to decide if a question is ... See more Dear Mary,
The problem may lie in the fact that the definitions of "pro" vs. "non-pro" changed several months ago. Before, there was "pro" vs. "easy" division, and, as far as I see, many ProZians still stick to it and evaluate questions on this scale.
Henry provided a detailed explanation on how to decide if a question is "pro" or "non-pro":
http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/95/1/KudoZ---deciding-whether-a-question-is-PRO-or-non-PRO
So, I want to note that the comment "hardly a `pro' question" might be - or might be not - well-intentioned, in fact. Yes, there are few people who assert themselves by arrogant comments, still there are many more who just want more order in the glossaries and the KudoZ database.
[Edited at 2006-02-14 09:21] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I'm with Andy on this | Feb 14, 2006 |
Andy Watkinson wrote:
gad wrote:
I'm sick and tired of reading threads here on this forum that have to do with how some people have such nerve posting certain questions...
In my opinion, it's an insult to everyone's intelligence to even ask a question like this, unless your admit up front that you're a beginner, just curious....etc...
People who read the profile of an asker who claims to have a good knowledge of corporate/financial matters but clearly doesnt't know the difference between "capital subscribed" and "fully paid up" is not a genuine translator. Come on......
My sentiments too, Andy. IMO, we basically are all entitled to ask any Q we want.
What gets me is not when someone asks a very simple question, but when they then have the nerve to claim on their profile to be an expert in that particular area. This kind of behaviour is a disservice to the reputation of our profession.
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| translators helping translators | Feb 19, 2006 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
I have to admit I'm one of those people who ask the stupid questions at times. My mind gets blocked, and I simply have to find a solution - don't we all! So here is a special tribute to the colleagues who have bailed me out every time. We seem to keep a friendly tone in my language pairs, and then it's easy to stay on good terms.
Well said! Isn't that part of what makes ProZ so valuable - that it is a community of translators helping each other? After all, the slogan is "Translators Helping Translators."
I see nothing wrong with using Kudoz for these occasional mind blocks or late nights with tight deadlines, as long as such questions are marked Non-Pro. And done within reason, of course. Especially if the asker makes valuable contributions to the community otherwise (as Christine does).
We all need a bit of help sometimes!
Cheers,
Sylvia
| | | | Gina W
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 22:31
Mitglied (2003)
Französisch > Englisch
| Askers contribute | Feb 19, 2006 |
Sylvia Smith wrote:
Especially if the asker makes valuable contributions to the community otherwise (as Christine does).
Askers post questions, which become part of the KudoZ glossary. That's a contribution in and of itself. I've actually asked questions for this purpose - it shows a great deal of respect for my colleagues, since it's asking their input as a double-check, plus it awards someone else points in the meantime. So to have anyone even hint that a KudoZ Asker is trying to take advantage of colleagues is really not fair. Plus, there are other ways to contribute - like making one's own glossary entries. I have about 250 or so terms in mine.
Plus, to respond to the whole idea that a person who claims to be an expert should not ask certain questions, how does one know what anyone claims to be, just by reading a KudoZ question? You don't - you'd have to click on that person's profile to know that. Blatant resentment of askers does give the impression that someone MAY have too much time on his/her hands, as opposed to being truly busy with plenty of work, honestly, particularly if those same people are just SO resentful that then feel it necessary to post a nasty comment and/or start a forum thread. I'm sure plenty of people do have work, but there are some who one really has to wonder about. Also, I suspect that Andy and Cilian might not be talking about the same situations that I am referring to, and I also suspect that they are not the ones making nasty and inappropriate comments.
For the most part, colleagues help colleagues here on ProZ.com, and are nice about it. But those VERY FEW who have to be nasty are the ones who should probably focus on their own practice IRL, as opposed to spending an inordinate amount of time getting aggravated about an Asker apparently having the nerve to ask a question. Also, regarding the Non-Pro issue, there are some (again, very few) individuals who vote the majority of questions Non-Pro, whereas this point was made upthread (and I repeat it again here, since I find it interesting and worth repeating):
Wenke Geddert wrote:
If there is any doubt in your mind as to whether a question should be categorized as PRO or non-PRO, go with PRO."
Unfortunately, some people do not use such discretion. I've actually seen many questions that elicit 5 or 6 different answers - all from intelligent, professional translators, mind you - yet someone votes Non-Pro? That does not at all go along with what Non-Pro is supposed to be, I would think. Also, certain FIELDS - specifically, Art/Literary is at least one - are supposed to always be considered Pro (that is my understanding, as per a moderator's previous input on that topic) since although the word/term may be in a dictionary, etc, it takes a certain amount of expertise to render a translation in that context.
Wenke Geddert wrote:
If you feel that the comments made are inappropriate, please contact your moderator for the respective language combination.
Sometimes a user/member might not be breaking the RULES of the site, so the moderator can't do much, but again, it has to do with the SPIRIT of the site. And again, nastiness is not professional, nor does it make for a pleasant environment, and I don't believe that it improves the site at all either.
But I do wonder, the whole point of the "Ask the Asker" function is for potential answerers to ask for clarification, correct? It is not really intended for someone to post "you're supposed to look in the glossary" or "didn't you even do a Google search" or whatever. And there ARE tactful and nice ways to inform someone of something - for instance, if I'm understanding correctly the situation that prompted this thread, someone actually felt the need to WRITE that the question was "hardly a Pro question"? Why? Why not just vote Non-Pro? Why was anything more necessary? It wasn't, as far as I can tell. I've personally seen new people post questions that were not totally following the Rules, but I nicely welcomed the person to the site, privately in email, and just nicely let them know about the Rules. Why does anyone need a public smackdown?
About having a "thick skin", I don't really think that should have to be the case, honestly. While people are people and we are dealing with all different cultures, etc, I do think the aim should be one of collaboration, and that an Asker (or anyone) can expect that others on the site will respond in a respectful manner.
Sylvia, you brought up a good point earlier in the thread, about why someone might ask a question, not sure why it was ignored, honestly. Christine also brought up a somewhat similar, excellent point. I just added to it above, illustrating that not only can an Asker's motives be good, and not suspect, but also the fact is that the end result of any question asked is going to be a KudoZ glossary entry - which, in essence, is the ultimate purpose of KudoZ. It's good to be concerned about the quality of the site, but not at the expense of the good and positive atmosphere of collaboration, that is supposed to be the SPIRIT of KudoZ.
[Edited at 2006-02-19 16:54]
| | | | | the number of responses | Feb 19, 2006 |
gad wrote:
I've actually seen many questions that elicit 5 or 6 different answers - all from intelligent, professional translators, mind you - yet someone votes Non-Pro? That does not at all go along with what Non-Pro is supposed to be, I would think.
I just wanted to comment that I don't think it is necessarily the number of answers that determines whether a question is Pro or Non-Pro. Some colloquial phrases can be translated many different ways, although they do not require specialised training or knoweldge and hence would be Non-Pro. On the other hand, many highly technical terms would really have only one translation, but knowing that translation would require specialised knowledge in that area (and hence would be Pro).
For instance, gad, to use examples from our language pair (and my sincerest apologies to users with other language pairs), there are several ways to translate 'ça y est' - there it is, that's it, there you go, here you are, etc. But that is clearly Non-Pro.
On the other hand, 'rentabilité en trésorerie de l'investissement' = cash flow return on investment. Not many other ways to say it, but it would be Pro because it requires specific knowledge in finance.
I just felt that was worth pointing out, since there is a lot of heated debate about whether a question should be Pro (bearing in mind, of course, that voting Non-Pro is not an insult, just a reclassification!).
Cheers,
Sylvia
| | | | Gina W
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 22:31
Mitglied (2003)
Französisch > Englisch
| I see your point but | Feb 19, 2006 |
OK, point taken, but that was not even the main point in my last post, plus the fact is that the number of answers CAN be an indication that a question is not Non-Pro. Remember this (which no one else has commented on, btw):
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Andy Watkinson
Spanien
Local time: 04:31
Mitglied
Katalanisch > Englisch
+ ...
As you said in an earlier post, we're probably addressing different points here, but even so, there are some things with which I simply do not agree.
e.g.
A) "Plus, to respond to the whole idea that a person who claims to be an expert should not ask certain questions, how does one know what anyone claims to be, just by reading a KudoZ question?"
Of course, "one" doesn't.
"You don't - you'd have to click on that person's profile to know that".
... See more As you said in an earlier post, we're probably addressing different points here, but even so, there are some things with which I simply do not agree.
e.g.
A) "Plus, to respond to the whole idea that a person who claims to be an expert should not ask certain questions, how does one know what anyone claims to be, just by reading a KudoZ question?"
Of course, "one" doesn't.
"You don't - you'd have to click on that person's profile to know that".
That's exactly what I do, gad. I simply look at the person's profile.
And what do I find? That this person purports to to have a great deal of experience in legal, contracts etc.....yet is wondering whether all the repetitions of "whereas" at the start of a contract are some kind of mistake.
B) "and some do not even bother to either post an answer of their own, nor do they even post an "agree" - if a question is so elementary, then it should be elementary for someone to do either of those things"
I don't know how many different threads I've read on this topic, but the two major positions can be summarised as follows:
1.- If you've offered an answer to a question, you shouldn't disagree with another person's answer as this can be interpreted as trying to "attack" the other person so as to win some childish points.
The corrolary is that if you disagree you should not post an answer. So a lot of people would "disagree" with you on that.
2.- The other position is yours. If you disagree, you must offer an answer.
Neither is correct, in my opinion.
I can spot a glaring mistake in someone's proposed answer - because they've obviously not even understood the question, let alone provided a decent solution.
My duty is therefore to warn the asker that the answer in question is worthless.
I don't agree with another answer because nobody's posted one with which I agree.
I don't offer an answer of my own because I might not know the "correct" answer.
...or I may not have time.
....or I may not simply feel like it.
But that doesn't mean that if someone posts some daft suggestion I shouldn't be free to disagree with it.
As you say, "elementary".
Saludos,
Andy ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gina W
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 22:31
Mitglied (2003)
Französisch > Englisch
| I didn't say anything about "disagree" | Feb 20, 2006 |
Hi Andy, thanks for your response, and points taken, but I wasn't talking about a "disagree" - I was talking about someone who comes in, makes a smart remark and/or classifies/votes the question as Non-Pro, but yet does not contribute to the question at all. The person took the time to read the question and vote or change to Non-Pro, why not either agree with an answer given, or offer an alternative answer? In that case, it would seem that Non-Pro means to that person that the question is too ... See more Hi Andy, thanks for your response, and points taken, but I wasn't talking about a "disagree" - I was talking about someone who comes in, makes a smart remark and/or classifies/votes the question as Non-Pro, but yet does not contribute to the question at all. The person took the time to read the question and vote or change to Non-Pro, why not either agree with an answer given, or offer an alternative answer? In that case, it would seem that Non-Pro means to that person that the question is too easy to be posted at all. I would disagree with that type of thinking. There have been plenty of good reasons given why a person might post a seemingly simple term, and I don't believe that posting such a term violates any rules (I could be wrong, of course, but that is my understanding), and again, if someone has the time to change/vote Non-Pro, why not indicate which answer is the correct one, or if there is no correct answer then offer one? Why take the time to do one and not the other?
Of course, when you are talking about ONE question, then ok, I can see that happening, even if I still think it's odd. But as a general habit? Very odd, indeed. It's like the person is not trying to help anyone - you see the title to Sylvia's post upthread, about the whole idea of KudoZ: that translators collaborate, i.e. help one another. How does it help to say that a question is Non-Pro but not contribute to any correct answer anyway? I don't see how it does.
The ultimate purpose of KudoZ is to build the KudoZ glossary - or so I've been told before. I think that should be kept in mind when reading a question. I know that I, myself, use the ProZ.com Term Search quite a bit, and obviously that wouldn't even exist without KudoZ questions that are posted.
But regarding the "disagree" thing, I won't comment on that since as you say, it's been discussed before, but I just wanted to clarify that is not what I meant. Thanks.:) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Superfluous "non-pro" button | Jun 18, 2006 |
As I see it, proz.com is run by IT-freaks, and they love gimmicks. The "non pro" button is such a gimmick, the "good question" button is another gimmick. (There are more.) I try to ignore all of them as far as possible.
Okay, sometimes I am surprised about the questions asked - hasn't the asker even a basic dictionary? But that's not the point: if something like kudoz is offered for people to ask questions, then every question is legitimate, and what might seem easy to some may still be di... See more As I see it, proz.com is run by IT-freaks, and they love gimmicks. The "non pro" button is such a gimmick, the "good question" button is another gimmick. (There are more.) I try to ignore all of them as far as possible.
Okay, sometimes I am surprised about the questions asked - hasn't the asker even a basic dictionary? But that's not the point: if something like kudoz is offered for people to ask questions, then every question is legitimate, and what might seem easy to some may still be difficult for others.
Yes, there are people involved in the network whose manners leave much to be desired (not only answerers, but also some askers), but by and large it's a nice crowd and kudoz a useful tool. Don't give up on it! ▲ Collapse
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